Cleveland offense- Dorsey

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Lol...I have repeatedly now said that you blame Dorseys failures on some alleged McD interference you insist was happening (despite any evidence, proof, facts, film supporting it, etc)...you then say that is not what you said...BUT then proceed to give another example showing that is exactly what you said.  

 

Feel like I am some dude on a prank show who hasn't figured out he is on a prank show yet.

But you still have extraordinarily poor reading comprehension.  It’s staggering really.  Peace

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Daboll is a great example...I think what made Daboll look so good was that Allen had so many people doubting him becoming anything close to what he became, so the assumption is that Daboll is a genius when Allen proved to be elite.  

 

And quite honestly, Daboll was great for Allen, they did have a great relationship.  But Allens biggest developments and mechanic improvements came in the offseason with Palmer and all the tech and specialists he worked with every year to completely revamp his mechanics.  So I think Allen would have still become Allen with or without Daboll.

 

As great as Daboll was in some cases, he was also a guy with his own issues as an OC.  He would out think himself a lot, 3rd and short lets throw a 20 yard wheel route to a FB kind of thing.  It was like he wanted to be seen more as a mad genius at times rather than make the sound decision on a key play.  He was also allergic to running the football, and he had his own offensive skids in his tenure here that were turned around once he finally started getting the run game with Devin more involved like in 2021 at halftime in the Bucs game and for the rest of the season.  

 

He did it again against us this season.  He is on the goal line to win the game with one final play with Tyrod (his backup QB).  Instead of handing the ball to his best player in Barkley or trying to run it in with Tyrod (a good runner at QB), he has Tyrod (a short and below average passer) drop back and attempt a pass into the crowded middle to one of the worst collections of receiving weapons in the NFL for an incomplete pass.  How do you even make that decision?  At the very least, roll Taylor out so he can have the option of running it in if the pass isn't there...or just give it to your best player Barkley to due what you pay him to do.

 

For all Daboll does well, he can't shake this tendency to out Daboll himself in some key situations...and he certainly made a head scratching call that helped us get a win we didn't deserve.

Daboll was never great but he was always near greatness (Saban, BB, Josh Allen) and he looked better than he is because of it.  Hes an  empty hoodie…a bum

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said:

But you still have extraordinarily poor reading comprehension.  It’s staggering really.  Peace

 

Are these your posts below or did someone ghostwrite them?  

 

Is your message not that you think McD was interfering with Dorsey?  Because that is what you have stated quite clearly many times here.  So what am I comprehending so poorly?

 

 

On 8/8/2024 at 2:25 PM, 4merper4mer said:

The HC talked ad nauseam about complementary football.  You don’t think it’s remotely possible that he wasn’t just blathering to the press but he was also restricting what Dorsey could do?  The play calling in the first Miami game seemed pretty good but maybe Dorsey got memory loss or something after that.  Or…..maybe something else.

 

You’re being a homer which is fine but open your eyes a bit.  Joe Brady doesn’t come with any guarantees and it’s quite possible our real OC is McDermott.

 

On 8/8/2024 at 4:07 PM, 4merper4mer said:

Ask yourself this….if a great, good, average, below average, or poor OC gets their playbook nerfed in favor of being complementary, would they see increasing or diminishing returns?

It’s almost as if Dorsey forgot all the plays he had deployed against Miami just one week earlier.

 

On 8/8/2024 at 5:19 PM, 4merper4mer said:

Lots of words but still not much listening.  In a way it was the “same offense”.  It was also a restricted fraction of the same offense.  It was there to see.

 

 

On 8/8/2024 at 5:25 PM, 4merper4mer said:

But if your going to ask that the offense focus on sustaining drives above all, your going to take away parts of the playbook and if you expect scoring not to be impacted, you’re mistaken.

 

23 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

You said “what Dorsey was doing wasn’t working here” or similar.  That statement puts it all on Dorsey implying he had free reign to run everything he wanted.  But you don’t know whether that is true or not. 

 

6 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Lots of words.  A “bro” thrown in.  Still incorrect.  I’d ask why you think things were working so well in the beginning of the season, with the exception of the Jets game where Josh was clearly at fault,  and abruptly stopped after the Miami game…..but nah.  Why bother?. 

 

NewEra is learning to drive.  His dad forces him to close his eyes.  Car crashes.  Clearly NewEra wasn’t driving properly.  Same thing.

 

6 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

I’ve explained what I believe to be McD’s rationale and also said I don’t completely disagree with it but if you prefer to put words in my mouth then you do you.   

 

4 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

The point about the driving lesson should be clear.  When driving, eyes are tools.  If you can’t use all the tools at your disposal, you’re not going to drive as well.  If you’re limited in plays you can call or when you can call them, you’re not going to be your best self as an OC.  Does that mean NewEras dad wanted him to crash?  No, it doesnt.  But blaming only NewEra would be incorrect.

 

I don't even know what you expect anyone to take from your posts other than you believe McD was interfering with Dorsey and his offense.  If that is not your stance...then woof...I don't even know what to say because its been your entire message the whole thread.

 

 

 

Edited August 10 by Alphadawg7

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Thats fair, so lets look at the full context to answer your question:

• They have been wanting Josh to run less for 5 years now, it wasn't some sudden change only under Dorsey.  Even when Daboll was here, every offseason the discussion was to have Josh take less hits to protect their quarter of a billion dollar investment.  Allen goes down, so does the whole team.
• When Brady took over we were essentially in a must win situation almost every week, and certainly after the Eagles loss.  So I think its pretty reasonable to see an increase in Josh doing everything he can to win in must win situations.
• Brady used Allen's legs MUCH more strategically than Dorsey ever did.

There is no question what so ever that McD, Beane, and whoever the OC is would prefer Josh to take less punishment and have to run and take hits so much.  Josh himself said he doesn't like to run or want to run if he doesn't have to, but we also know Josh will leave it all out there on every play in key moments and games.  

 

But no, I do not at all think McD came in and told Dorsey that you have to keep Allen from running.  McD does not want to take that out of Allens game, and has spoken about that and how they "have to let Josh be Josh" and play free out there.  What he really wants is Allen to take less hits/punishment...he wants him to not fight for meaningless or unnecessary few extra yards where he takes big hits instead of sliding or getting out of bounds.  McD has talked many times about what a weapon it is to have a QB like Josh who can make those kinds of plays with his legs, pick up the 3rd and 1, 4th and 1 with such a high degree of success.  

 

 

 

 

You did make some good points here, but I wanted to throw out a few more stats. 

 

In 2022 with Dorsey as OC Josh averaged 7.75 carries per game and was our leading rusher in 9 out of 16 regular season games. None of those were really desperate must win games considering our worst record at any point in the season was 6-3. 

 

In 2023 in the Dorsey games that decreased to 4.8 carries per game and Josh was only our leading rusher in 2 out of 10 games (4 carries for 14 yards vs Jags and 8 carries for 44 yards vs Bengals).

 

Even in the Daboll years it felt like we had a 'in case of emergency break glass' button and call some designed Josh runs if the offense was struggling. That safety valve was turned off for Dorsey in 2023 and I have to imagine that was a McBeane decision. 

 

I think McD had a coming to Jesus moment when he fired Dorsey and realized that shackling the OC/Josh was a bad decision and gave Brady the green-light to run Josh as much as he wanted. As you pointed out once Brady was OC we were in must-win mode, but I'd call the Broncos game under Dorsey a must-win as well and Josh only had 4 carries that game. 4 carries for Josh is fewer than any game under Brady

 

[The Helmet of]

I wanted Dorsey fired after the 2022 season.
 

It had been clear to me he was ruining Josh’s mojo. 

 

Plus, he did not strike me as a leader of men. Bad communication skills (inarticulate) in press conferences and subdued during practice. Nothing like Babich or Brady— two high energy guys who seem to communicate very well in all aspects. 

 

Hiring Dorsey in the first place was one of McDermott’s biggest mistakes. 
 

Totally unsurprising when it was announced he won’t be calling plays for the Browns this year.  Qb coach seems to be his ceiling at the NFL level.

 

 

 

 

[Freak-O]

5 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

You did make some good points here, but I wanted to throw out a few more stats. 

 

In 2022 with Dorsey as OC Josh averaged 7.75 carries per game and was our leading rusher in 9 out of 16 regular season games. None of those were really desperate must win games considering our worst record at any point in the season was 6-3. 

 

In 2023 in the Dorsey games that decreased to 4.8 carries per game and Josh was only our leading rusher in 2 out of 10 games (4 carries for 14 yards vs Jags and 8 carries for 44 yards vs Bengals).

 

Even in the Daboll years it felt like we had a 'in case of emergency break glass' button and call some designed Josh runs if the offense was struggling. That safety valve was turned off for Dorsey in 2023 and I have to imagine that was a McBeane decision. 

 

I think McD had a coming to Jesus moment when he fired Dorsey and realized that shackling the OC/Josh was a bad decision and gave Brady the green-light to run Josh as much as he wanted. As you pointed out once Brady was OC we were in must-win mode, but I'd call the Broncos game under Dorsey a must-win as well and Josh only had 4 carries that game. 4 carries for Josh is fewer than any game under Brady

 

You have to imagine? What do you base this imagination on? Why wasn’t it Dorsey’s decision and part of what got him replaced? And the different running backs that were on the team those two seasons might have played a part too, right? 

[Alphadawg7]

9 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

You did make some good points here, but I wanted to throw out a few more stats. 

 

In 2022 with Dorsey as OC Josh averaged 7.75 carries per game and was our leading rusher in 9 out of 16 regular season games. None of those were really desperate must win games considering our worst record at any point in the season was 6-3. 

 

In 2023 in the Dorsey games that decreased to 4.8 carries per game and Josh was only our leading rusher in 2 out of 10 games (4 carries for 14 yards vs Jags and 8 carries for 44 yards vs Bengals).

 

Even in the Daboll years it felt like we had a 'in case of emergency break glass' button and call some designed Josh runs if the offense was struggling. That safety valve was turned off for Dorsey in 2023 and I have to imagine that was a McBeane decision. 

 

I think McD had a coming to Jesus moment when he fired Dorsey and realized that shackling the OC/Josh was a bad decision and gave Brady the green-light to run Josh as much as he wanted. As you pointed out once Brady was OC we were in must-win mode, but I'd call the Broncos game under Dorsey a must-win as well and Josh only had 4 carries that game. 4 carries for Josh is fewer than any game under Brady

 

 

You bring up some good points here as well, and I understand how you are getting to these thoughts.  

 

When I look at what you are presenting, which is data as a whole (as in whole 10 games of Dorsey in 2023, whole season in 2022, and Brady's whole 7 games) respectfully what I think is happening is that the data without the context of the individual games is leading you to a false positive conclusion to a degree.  And by false positive, I mean that there was the assumption of another influence/force/etc in play for the reason for the lower rush attempts specifically in the 10 Dorsey games in 2023...in this case, that would be McDermott as you have mentioned.

 

So let me explain further:

• Josh only averaged 4.4 YPC rushing under Brady.  In fact, the only game he rushed for more than 4.5 yards was the Eagle game.  A game where we were in a must win against what was then the #1 seed in the NFC and went to overtime.  And quite honestly, a bad interception by Josh that game is why we also lost.  Josh took off running more in that game trying to win.  
  • Its not that Josh was used as a runner so much more under Brady, its that Brady utilized Josh better in short yardage situations picking up key 3rd downs with sneaks or TD conversions.  
  • There were only 3 games where Josh had noticeably more attempts than under Dorsey...The Chiefs game (a must win agiainst the SB Champs), Patriots week 17 where 10 of his 11 carries only went for only 25 yards, and the final must win game against the Dolphins with the 2 seed and Divisional Title on the line.
• Dorseys 3 biggest offensive outputs of the season were weeks 2, 3, and 4 where Josh only had a combined 10 carries across those 3 games because did not need to run in those blowout wins, everything was working in the pass game.  
• When you look at the final 4 games before Dorsey was fired, Josh averaged 6.5 carries per game, not much difference than Bradys 7 game average.  
• In our 5 losses under Dorsey in 2023 Josh averaged 6 carries per game as well.  

So while you are not wrong by any means on identifying the lower rush attempts across 10 games for Dorsey in 2023, a big part of that is because in 3 blow out wins Josh did not need to run and only had 3 carries per game average.  And while you are also not wrong about Josh averaging more carries under Brady, a big part of that were because of a couple big must win games and a more strategic use of Josh to convert down and short.  

 

I do not think the reason we didn't win those 5 games was because Josh didn't average the 1 more carry per game to match what he averaged during Brady's 7 game stretch where we went 6-1.  

 

For me...the context of the games tells me that the discrepancy likely has a lot more to do with game flow and how the OC called the games in certain situations, how Josh audibles at the line or improvised live in games in key moments than any outside force coming in with a heavy influence like McD. 

 

When I take a step further back, I look at our history under McD.  He has consistently discussed not wanting to change Josh or limit his game.  He, as well as Beane, Josh himself, and whoever the OC is have all had the same consistent message to take less damage out there and get out of bounds more and slide more.  

 

Then you look at the reluctancy of Dorsey to use Cook more and most importantly get Shakir involved more, the forcing of the ball to Diggs, stupid play calls in critical moments, etc and suddenly there are a lot more things that feel like are the culprit to our offensive struggles that have nothing to do with McD or Josh as a runner.

 

So respectfully, I still disagree that I think McD had restricted Dorsey from using Josh at all as a runner.  I don't think the data suggests that at all when you take a closer look and factor in game flow, magnitude of the games, how Josh was used as a runner in those moments, etc. 

 

IMHO it was Dorsey who just wasn't able to get himself out of a skid as defenses figured out how to disrupt his offense.  The way he called games felt like he was stubbornly sticking to the pre-game script rather than making adjustments and just had no answers for what he was seeing out there.  His refusal to recognize the talent on the roster and use it better was not only an issue this year, but also in 2022.  And that was exactly what I saw on the field every week when I watched the games.  

 

Dorseys tenure was the most I ever screamed at my TV during games about an OC since Hackett was here. 

Edited August 10 by Alphadawg7