Cleveland offense- Dorsey

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

quality begets quality

 

consider putting me on ignore if you're expecting anything more than a cursory hurdle over your 'points'

 

I dont put people on ignore... 

 

But you hurdling over valid points with nonsense by you...well that I will agree with you on.

[Don Otreply]

Dorsey could with sufficient seasoning be an above average OC in a couple of years, he was doing the square peg round hole thing, I suspect he will in the future, taylor his scheme to suit his player’s skills, if not, he will be a Qb coach as a career. 

[DapperCam]

21 hours ago, MJS said:

Why do you think Dorsey lacked imagination? I just think his concepts and scheme didn't align well with Josh Allen's strengths and weaknesses. Josh Allen needs a little less structure and a little more room to improvise.

I don’t remember Dorsey scheming guys open or giving easy completions for 5-10 yards. Felt like Allen had very little margin for error on passing plays.

 

I’m not sure Brady is much better in that regard, but I watch a lot of other teams and far inferior QBs seem to have some easier options open more often.

[GunnerBill]

37 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

My point was actually at another poster- that using w/l is a poor method of OC e v a l

 

But if you want to argue that allowing 200yards rushing and 56% on third down is playing remarkably well have at it

 

I suppose you think the defense played well vs Chiefs in the playoffs too 

 

No I think managing to hold Jax as long as they did was pretty remarkable in the circumstances. The offense gave them no shot in that game. Had they got even a little bit of help who knows.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

granted

 

obviously the interaction between offensive ppg and w/l is  a lot more complicated than what's been laid out

 

for example- the two game stretch where bass missed 3/4 fgs would add 9pts over a six game average which would obviously improve output...two of those were vs the Giants in a win (altho both were from 50+ iirc)

 

another- we scored 25 in a loss vs Patriots where their season average ppg against was 21.5. we also lost v jags scoring 20 where the Chiefs were able to beat them scoring 17

 

im all for actual discourse on the offense. but there is a ton of nuance that gets left out

 

 

 

 

 

None of this has anything to do with the fact that against bad teams the Bills offense scored 19.6 PPG in 70% of Dorseys games as OC.  That is a losing season...that is a team out of the playoffs.  That is a team where people get fired.  A super bowl contending team does NOT do that.  And after the switch we went from well out of the playoffs to division champs and #2 seed.  But you still somehow think Dorsey was infallible and not the problem?

 

Bills have been the 2nd highest scoring team in the NFL since Allen's arrival, 2nd only to the Chiefs.  But you think its ok for the Bills to average less than 20 PPG against our weakest teams...teams like the Broncos who gave up 70 points a few weeks before they played us?  

 

I cant even fathom how you get to this logic.  Averaging 19.6 PPG against good teams would not be good enough, let alone teams with a .436 win %.  Not to mention Dorsey in 3 games vs the Jets was 1-2 with 2 losses to Zack Wilson where the Bills averaged 17 ppg.  Brady first game against the same Jets team we put 32 points and smashed the Jets and had Josh Allen screaming on the sidelines "Im Back!".  

 

Meanwhile in the 7 games under Brady to elevate us to the 2 seed and division champs we averaged 27 ppg against the hardest part of our schedule, more than a full TD more than Dorsey did with the same team against the weakest part of our schedule.  How you can still sit here and insist things were BETTER with Dorsey than Brady is stunning.  

 

IMHO based on your posts, you seem to have made up in your mind that there is only one way to play offense and that is air it out at all costs...doesn't seem to matter if you lose games or how many points you score...it only matters that you pass pass pass and pass deep.  

[Pete]

Dorsey could not figure out how to use Dalton.  5 yard outs is mucho stupidity.  Cook didn’t get really going until Brady took over

[GoBills808]

15 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

None of this has anything to do with the fact that against bad teams the Bills offense scored 19.6 PPG in 70% of Dorseys games as OC.  That is a losing season...that is a team out of the playoffs.  That is a team where people get fired.  A super bowl contending team does NOT do that.  And after the switch we went from well out of the playoffs to division champs and #2 seed.  But you still somehow think Dorsey was infallible and not the problem?

 

Bills have been the 2nd highest scoring team in the NFL since Allen's arrival, 2nd only to the Chiefs.  But you think its ok for the Bills to average less than 20 PPG against our weakest teams...teams like the Broncos who gave up 70 points a few weeks before they played us?  

 

I cant even fathom how you get to this logic.  Averaging 19.6 PPG against good teams would not be good enough, let alone teams with a .436 win %.  Not to mention Dorsey in 3 games vs the Jets was 1-2 with 2 losses to Zack Wilson where the Bills averaged 17 ppg.  Brady first game against the same Jets team we put 32 points and smashed the Jets and had Josh Allen screaming on the sidelines "Im Back!".  

 

Meanwhile in the 7 games under Brady to elevate us to the 2 seed and division champs we averaged 27 ppg against the hardest part of our schedule, more than a full TD more than Dorsey did with the same team against the weakest part of our schedule.  How you can still sit here and insist things were BETTER with Dorsey than Brady is stunning.  

 

IMHO based on your posts, you seem to have made up in your mind that there is only one way to play offense and that is air it out at all costs...doesn't seem to matter if you lose games or how many points you score...it only matters that you pass pass pass and pass deep.  

im going to give you a lesson on why you shouldn't use an average and a percentage together like that

 

in 100% of Dorsey's games as OC in 2023 we scored more PPG than the actual Super Bowl champions

 

 

[JohnNord]

29 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

7...of our 10 games...against weak teams with a .436 win %...our offense scored 19.8 PPG and we were 2-5 and should have been 0-7.  And you suddenly think McDermott after being the 2nd highest scoring team of the past 4 years in the whole NFL suddenly decided not to score points anymore and over rode Dorsey in those 7 games is the reason we scored less?

 

Come on.  Do not know how far fetched that even sounds?  I am not a homer, I have been very critical of things that were clear issues like Dorsey in year 1 and year 2.  Like Frazier and his lame post season defense.  Being optimistic about Brady does not make me a homer, it makes me someone who used his eyes and saw the difference within the team once he took over and believes there is reason to be optimistic about him installing his own offense now.  Will it succeed?  I don't know.  But I do KNOW that Dorsey failed.  

My thoughts exactly and one reason why I always chime in when people passionately defend Dorsey.  
 

It’s true the defense played badly but they were missing 3 starters (including their 2 best defenders) and trying to adjust.  
 

People forget - after watching the offense struggle each week after they peaked against Miami, we kept saying THIS is going to be the week they get back on track.  It never happened.

 

One thing to remember too - last season the same thing happened to the offense as well.  They started out hot but ended up struggling to put up points against average to mediocre teams.  Then we all know what happened in the post season.  

 

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

7...of our 10 games...against weak teams with a .436 win %...our offense scored 19.8 PPG and we were 2-5 and should have been 0-7.  And you suddenly think McDermott after being the 2nd highest scoring team of the past 4 years in the whole NFL suddenly decided not to score points anymore and over rode Dorsey in those 7 games is the reason we scored less?

 

Come on.  Do not know how far fetched that even sounds?  I am not a homer, I have been very critical of things that were clear issues like Dorsey in year 1 and year 2.  Like Frazier and his lame post season defense.  Being optimistic about Brady does not make me a homer, it makes me someone who used his eyes and saw the difference within the team once he took over and believes there is reason to be optimistic about him installing his own offense now.  Will it succeed?  I don't know.  But I do KNOW that Dorsey failed.  

Not exactly what I said, but if is easier for you to argue against then sure go ahead.
 

When you gripe about Brady not being able to get points despite having the greatest QB in the history of the world……and you will……my reply will read simply:

 

”Strike two”.

 

Ask yourself this….if a great, good, average, below average, or poor OC gets their playbook nerfed in favor of being complementary, would they see increasing or diminishing returns?

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No I think managing to hold Jax as long as they did was pretty remarkable in the circumstances. The offense gave them no shot in that game. Had they got even a little bit of help who knows.

It’s almost as if Dorsey forgot all the plays he had deployed against Miami just one week earlier.

[Alphadawg7]

17 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

im going to give you a lesson on why you shouldn't use an average and a percentage together like that

 

in 100% of Dorsey's games as OC in 2023 we scored more PPG than the actual Super Bowl champions

 

 

😂😂😂
 

I don’t know what’s worse…this “lesson”…this rebuttal in general…or the fact your tried to flex on this nonsense.  

[Alphadawg7]

10 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Not exactly what I said, but if is easier for you to argue against then sure go ahead.
 

 

I sincerely wasn't trying to twist what you were saying, that was honestly how it read to me.  If you meant something else, then fine and fair, I am open to hearing what you meant instead, but that was how I honestly interpreted it.

 

10 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

When you gripe about Brady not being able to get points despite having the greatest QB in the history of the world……and you will……my reply will read simply:

 

”Strike two”.

 

Ask yourself this….if a great, good, average, below average, or poor OC gets their playbook nerfed in favor of being complementary, would they see increasing or diminishing returns?

 

To this I say strike two to you.  This is what you made up in your own head, there is no facts or evidence to this what so ever.  You can't with any shred of confidence prove this assumption other than to state your personal opinion on why you think this was the case based on how you personally interpreted something McD said one time.

 

And again...to believe this also means you need to believe that after McD saw the Bills be the 2nd highest scoring team in the NFL for 4 seasons, then he suddenly mid season after dismantling the Dolphins decided to interfere with Dorsey and "nerf" his offense into something it wasn't and stuck with it despite the losses stacking up.  Which is ironically exactly how I took it the first time your wrote it in which you said was not what you were saying.

 

Yet...the offense didn't actually change on the field in the 7 games...it was the same offense, it just wasn't working.  You seem to think when it worked one week and not the next that something drastic was altered and fundamentally changed.  

 

10 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

It’s almost as if Dorsey forgot all the plays he had deployed against Miami just one week earlier.

 

It is more like Josh Allen is an elite QB, and he is going to still play at a high level no matter the offense and will have some games where things just go perfectly.  The problem with Dorsey and his offense is that it rarely worked perfectly despite the fact it NEEDED to work perfectly.  What we saw with Brady was that not everything had to be perfect for the offense to have more success.  

 

[GoBills808]

31 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

😂😂😂
 

I don’t know what’s worse…this “lesson”…this rebuttal in general…or the fact your tried to flex on this nonsense.  

aaand to the surprise of absolutely no one @Alphadawg7fails to recognize his own garbage statistic and proceeded to blow his argument's head off

 

We done here bud

[Buffalo Junction]

So, for clarification….
 

When we’re referring to McD’s usage of “complementary football” are we just assuming that he tells all his OCs to run the football 40 times a game so the defense doesn’t get tired? 
 

I honestly can’t believe that McD would be that much of a dolt. I assume that when he uses that term it’s in reference to in game situations such as this team is down 3-4 starters in the front 7 (6 with this team), so the offense needs to keep the chains moving and get up by two scores so the opposition can’t just run the ball all game. 
 

The latter might make sense to me if we currently had Marshawn and FredX or even prime Shady, but that’s not the case. 

[Alphadawg7]

24 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

aaand to the surprise of absolutely no one @Alphadawg7fails to recognize his own garbage statistic and proceeded to blow his argument's head off

 

We done here bud

Huh?  You have yet to even address the facts given to you.  You just keep responding with childish banter and nonsense.  
 

But you do you boo 😘

[4merper4mer]

42 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I sincerely wasn't trying to twist what you were saying, that was honestly how it read to me.  If you meant something else, then fine and fair, I am open to hearing what you meant instead, but that was how I honestly interpreted it.

 

 

To this I say strike two to you.  This is what you made up in your own head, there is no facts or evidence to this what so ever.  You can't with any shred of confidence prove this assumption other than to state your personal opinion on why you think this was the case based on how you personally interpreted something McD said one time.

 

And again...to believe this also means you need to believe that after McD saw the Bills be the 2nd highest scoring team in the NFL for 4 seasons, then he suddenly mid season after dismantling the Dolphins decided to interfere with Dorsey and "nerf" his offense into something it wasn't and stuck with it despite the losses stacking up.  Which is ironically exactly how I took it the first time your wrote it in which you said was not what you were saying.

 

Yet...the offense didn't actually change on the field in the 7 games...it was the same offense, it just wasn't working.  You seem to think when it worked one week and not the next that something drastic was altered and fundamentally changed.  

 

 

It is more like Josh Allen is an elite QB, and he is going to still play at a high level no matter the offense and will have some games where things just go perfectly.  The problem with Dorsey and his offense is that it rarely worked perfectly despite the fact it NEEDED to work perfectly.  What we saw with Brady was that not everything had to be perfect for the offense to have more success.  

 

Lots of words but still not much listening.  In a way it was the “same offense”.  It was also a restricted fraction of the same offense.  It was there to see.

 

Look, you can worship Josh, pin all the problems of the world on Dorsey and be very emphatic about it all.  It does not make these things true.  But……if Clevend’s offense hums it’ll be Stefanski, if it flops it’ll be Dorsey.  That’s a layup so congrats.

[4merper4mer]

9 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

So, for clarification….
 

When we’re referring to McD’s usage of “complementary football” are we just assuming that he tells all his OCs to run the football 40 times a game so the defense doesn’t get tired? 
 

I honestly can’t believe that McD would be that much of a dolt. I assume that when he uses that term it’s in reference to in game situations such as this team is down 3-4 starters in the front 7 (6 with this team), so the offense needs to keep the chains moving and get up by two scores so the opposition can’t just run the ball all game. 
 

The latter might make sense to me if we currently had Marshawn and FredX or even prime Shady, but that’s not the case. 

To be clear I don’t totally disagree with the notion of complementary football.  It IS important to keep the defense rested.  We DID have significant injuries on that side of the ball so the number of plays our defense had to be on the field WAS an important stat.  But if your going to ask that the offense focus on sustaining drives above all, your going to take away parts of the playbook and if you expect scoring not to be impacted, you’re mistaken.

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Lots of words but still not much listening.  In a way it was the “same offense”.  It was also a restricted fraction of the same offense.  It was there to see.

 

Look, you can worship Josh, pin all the problems of the world on Dorsey and be very emphatic about it all.  It does not make these things true.  But……if Clevend’s offense hums it’ll be Stefanski, if it flops it’ll be Dorsey.  That’s a layup so congrats.

Except I’ve done none of that.  
 

I don’t need to see what Dorsey does in Cleveland to know he wasn’t working here.  Just like players, coaches can learn from mistakes, develop, and become better.  I’m not going to condemn Dorsey forever after just 26 games as an OC.

 

But Brady, with the same roster against tougher opponents took the offense out of the muck and rut and we averaged almost 8 more PPG than we did in Dorsey’s 6 game slide.  
 

You can chase OC styles…but I will chase results, points, and wins.  
 

 

[ColoradoBills]

2 hours ago, JohnNord said:

People forget - after watching the offense struggle each week after they peaked against Miami, we kept saying THIS is going to be the week they get back on track.  It never happened.

 

One thing to remember too - last season the same thing happened to the offense as well.  They started out hot but ended up struggling to put up points against average to mediocre teams.  Then we all know what happened in the post season.  

 

 

That is what I kept saying.

 

The other thing I said every week was.............Bills are playing this D.  They struggle with these things.  Dorsey needs to exploit that.

He never did.  He kept to his gameplan and didn't adapt.

IMO.

[4merper4mer]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Except I’ve done none of that.  
 

I don’t need to see what Dorsey does in Cleveland to know he wasn’t working here.  Just like players, coaches can learn from mistakes, develop, and become better.  I’m not going to condemn Dorsey forever after just 26 games as an OC.

 

But Brady, with the same roster against tougher opponents took the offense out of the muck and rut and we averaged almost 8 more PPG than we did in Dorsey’s 6 game slide.  
 

You can chase OC styles…but I will chase results, points, and wins.  
 

 

Lol so in your “mind” you’ve already “won” the argument?  Congrats.  You’re fully aware of all of the behind the scenes factors at OBD?  Gotcha.

[Alphadawg7]

22 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Lol so in your “mind” you’ve already “won” the argument?  Congrats.  You’re fully aware of all of the behind the scenes factors at OBD?  Gotcha.

What? I haven’t made one claim of what is going on behind the scenes, so what are you even talking about?