Cleveland offense- Dorsey

[Alphadawg7]

16 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Again simply a gross misrepresentation of the offense under Dorsey

 

poor and predictable schemes do not result in this

 

https://x.com/minakimes/status/1724466437190975685

And how many points per game did we average in our 5 losses and 2 should be losses against Giants and Bucs who both blew the game winning final plays?

 

19.8 ppg and a 2-5 record against teams with a .436 win %.  For a team with Josh Allen and it’s WR Diggs on pace for 1400 yards during that span.  
 

Dorsey was a problem and it’s why he was fired.  

Edited August 8 by Alphadawg7

[Malazan]

Dorsey's real problem was he didn't seem to have the connection, will or ability to do things to help Josh. The mass ejection of motion from the offense that Daboll did to help Allen read the defense before the snap was unwise. My concern for Dorsey when he was promoted is that he seemed to have a similar temperament to Allen in that they don't just want to win, but win with big exciting plays.

 

We all know Allen is prone to trying to do it all himself and emotional swings within games. I think Daboll's biggest contribution was his ability to get shift Allen off of some of his worse tendencies. I don't think Dorsey did that and often shared those same tendencies.

 

I feel Brady has a better connection with Allen in that regard.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

And how many points per game did we average in our 5 losses and 2 should be losses against Giants and Bucs who both blew the game winning final plays?

 

19.8 ppg and a 2-5 record against teams with a .436 win %.  For a team with Josh Allen and it’s WR Diggs on pace for 1400 yards during that span.  
 

Dorsey was a problem and it’s why he was fired.  

Breaking news- teams tend to score fewer points in losses!

[Avisan]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Breaking news- teams tend to score fewer points in losses!

Sure, but it's scoring fewer points that creating losses, not losses creating fewer points.  Very different from the teams-running-more-when-ahead thing.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Avisan said:

Sure, but it's scoring fewer points that creating losses, not losses creating fewer points.  Very different from the teams-running-more-when-ahead thing.

granted

 

obviously the interaction between offensive ppg and w/l is  a lot more complicated than what's been laid out

 

for example- the two game stretch where bass missed 3/4 fgs would add 9pts over a six game average which would obviously improve output...two of those were vs the Giants in a win (altho both were from 50+ iirc)

 

another- we scored 25 in a loss vs Patriots where their season average ppg against was 21.5. we also lost v jags scoring 20 where the Chiefs were able to beat them scoring 17

 

im all for actual discourse on the offense. but there is a ton of nuance that gets left out

 

 

 

 

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Fair enough...you know me I blame it all on McDermott anyways

 

Ideally Brady schemes up a few more easy throws and finds a nice run pass balance.

 

What I would really like to see is our NFL franchise effectively run a basic screen play. Not sure why they have struggled with this but it sure wpuld be a nice play to see. 

 

Allen needs to do his part. 4 less INTs and he needs to be more accurate on his deep ball. 

 

I agree… I think that ball placement and timing is an issue with Josh.  I’ve read reports that he worked more on mechanics this offseason.  Hopefully that pays off

[Alphadawg7]

38 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Breaking news- teams tend to score fewer points in losses!

Maybe the worst counter to a point I have ever seen on this board.  

[Allen2Moulds]

20 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

I think Dorsey was good. Tough being a first-time OC. I think he will only get better. 
 

That said, he isn’t calling the plays in Cleveland. 

No need to bash you for this comment, I think the general consensus here is pretty clear. All I will say, is that it was refreshing when Brady took over. 

 Good coaches can adapt quickly, and counterpunch throughout the game. By the time Dorsey figured out what was happening to him, we were in a deep hole, late in a game.

Doesn't mean he can't improve, but we'll see. Personally not expecting it. If you get fired with Josh Allen as your QB, good luck. Even Adam Gase seemed competent at one point.

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Maybe the worst counter to a point I have ever seen on this board.  

quality begets quality

 

consider putting me on ignore if you're expecting anything more than a cursory hurdle over your 'points'

[GunnerBill]

44 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

granted

 

obviously the interaction between offensive ppg and w/l is  a lot more complicated than what's been laid out

 

for example- the two game stretch where bass missed 3/4 fgs would add 9pts over a six game average which would obviously improve output...two of those were vs the Giants in a win (altho both were from 50+ iirc)

 

another- we scored 25 in a loss vs Patriots where their season average ppg against was 21.5. we also lost v jags scoring 20 where the Chiefs were able to beat them scoring 17

 

im all for actual discourse on the offense. but there is a ton of nuance that gets left out

 

 

 

 

 

The Jags loss though we did score a TD when the game was done. 

1 hour ago, JP51 said:

Good question on signature win... I mean that LAR game has to be in the conversation maybe the Titans or the Steelers games in 2022... I dunno... and yeah I think he was competent but overall unimpressive certainly no innovator. Lets see what he does in Cleveland, lets see if he adjusts his approach based on the changes he saw in Buffalo after he left... he adjusts and improves he has a chance to be above average , he doesnt he wont even be average I think he wont be an OC in two years.

 

In Cleveland it isn't his offense and he isn't calling plays. Not the place to judge him IMO.

[GoBills808]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

The Jags loss though we did score a TD when the game was done. 

Yes

 

As do all teams whose ppg gets tallied at seasons end

 

Are you really so surprised I don't find a stretch of games wherein a teams scores below its average compelling evidence as to the capacity of the OC, ESPECIALLY considering how this particular bills team suffers from regular mid season lulls

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yes

 

As do all teams whose ppg gets tallied at seasons end

 

Are you really so surprised I don't find a stretch of games wherein a teams scores below its average compelling evidence as to the capacity of the OC, ESPECIALLY considering how this particular bills team suffers from regular mid season lulls

 

True but you were picking that game specifically. And I don't think it isna great example. The offense sucked that day until the game was outta hand. 

[GoBills808]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

True but you were picking that game specifically. And I don't think it isna great example. The offense sucked that day until the game was outta hand. 

That's why I included the Chiefs game vs same opponent

 

because the game doesn't necessarily have to get out of hand when your offense sucks

[GunnerBill]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

That's why I included the Chiefs game vs same opponent

 

because the game doesn't necessarily have to get out of hand when your offense sucks

 

And the defense was down to the bare bones. Kendal Vickers, a practice squad defensive tackle, ended up playing 52% of the defensive snaps at defensive end. And they kept the game in hand until the final 8 minutes. Jacksonville scored 11 points in the previous 52 minutes against an injury ravanged defense. In that time the offense managed 7 points and basically one drive. Our drive lengths to that point:

 

3 plays

3 plays

6 plays

4 plays

11 plays and a TD

4 plays

4 plays

4 plays

 

We had been out time of possessioned 35 minutes to 17 at that point. Yea. That isn't a good game to make your point. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

And the defense was down to the bare bones. Kendal Vickers, a practice squad defensive tackle, ended up playing 52% of the defensive snaps at defensive end. And they kept the game in hand until the final 8 minutes. Jacksonville scored 11 points in the previous 52 minutes against an injury ravanged defense. In that time the offense managed 7 points and basically one drive. Our drive lengths to that point:

 

3 plays

3 plays

6 plays

4 plays

11 plays and a TD

4 plays

4 plays

4 plays

 

We had been out time of possessioned 35 minutes to 17 at that point. Yea. That isn't a good game to make your point. 

We allowed 200yards rushing, Sean McVay wouldn't be able to win TOP when that happens

 

This is exactly the game to make my point. They lost this game for a multitude of factors, the offense being one of many. It wasn't Dorsey letting the Jags go 10/18 on third down out there

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

We allowed 200yards rushing, Sean McVay wouldn't be able to win TOP when that happens

 

This is exactly the game to make my point. They lost this game for a multitude of factors, the offense being one of many. It wasn't Dorsey letting the Jags go 10/18 on third down out there

 

No but your point was the D shoulda been able to hold them and on that day with that personnel that isn't a fair or realistic expectation I'm sorry. They actually did remarkably well to hold them as long as they did. 

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No but your point was the D shoulda been able to hold them and on that day with that personnel that isn't a fair or realistic expectation I'm sorry. They actually did remarkably well to hold them as long as they did. 

My point was actually at another poster- that using w/l is a poor method of OC e v a l

 

But if you want to argue that allowing 200yards rushing and 56% on third down is playing remarkably well have at it

 

I suppose you think the defense played well vs Chiefs in the playoffs too 

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Maybe the worst counter to a point I have ever seen on this board.  

Maybe he was being sarcastic because your post was completely based on supposition and incorrect assumptions.  Let me see if I interpret it correctly:

 

The team had Diggs and Allen so if they don’t score a bazillion points it is the OC’s fault.  If that’s true then are you saying Diggs and Allen just aren’t quite good enough to overcome Dorsey’s shortcomings?

 

The HC talked ad nauseam about complementary football.  You don’t think it’s remotely possible that he wasn’t just blathering to the press but he was also restricting what Dorsey could do?  The play calling in the first Miami game seemed pretty good but maybe Dorsey got memory loss or something after that.  Or…..maybe something else.

 

You’re being a homer which is fine but open your eyes a bit.  Joe Brady doesn’t come with any guarantees and it’s quite possible our real OC is McDermott.

[GoBills808]

This is like using the cowboys game as a reason their OC sucks😂😂

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Maybe he was being sarcastic because your post was completely based on supposition and incorrect assumptions.  Let me see if I interpret it correctly:

 

The team had Diggs and Allen so if they don’t score a bazillion points it is the OC’s fault.  If that’s true then are you saying Diggs and Allen just aren’t quite good enough to overcome Dorsey’s shortcomings?

 

The HC talked ad nauseam about complementary football.  You don’t think it’s remotely possible that he wasn’t just blathering to the press but he was also restricting what Dorsey could do?  The play calling in the first Miami game seemed pretty good but maybe Dorsey got memory loss or something after that.  Or…..maybe something else.

 

You’re being a homer which is fine but open your eyes a bit.  Joe Brady doesn’t come with any guarantees and it’s quite possible our real OC is McDermott.

 

7...of our 10 games...against weak teams with a .436 win %...our offense scored 19.8 PPG and we were 2-5 and should have been 0-7.  And you suddenly think McDermott after being the 2nd highest scoring team of the past 4 years in the whole NFL suddenly decided not to score points anymore and over rode Dorsey in those 7 games is the reason we scored less?

 

Come on.  Do not know how far fetched that even sounds?  I am not a homer, I have been very critical of things that were clear issues like Dorsey in year 1 and year 2.  Like Frazier and his lame post season defense.  Being optimistic about Brady does not make me a homer, it makes me someone who used his eyes and saw the difference within the team once he took over and believes there is reason to be optimistic about him installing his own offense now.  Will it succeed?  I don't know.  But I do KNOW that Dorsey failed.