Cleveland offense- Dorsey

[MJS]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I never said he lacked imagination - though I wouldn't disagree with that assessment.  

 

I think he had some slumps as a playcaller where he'd call low-percentage and/or predictable plays.  

 

I also think he was poor with schemes.  Too often we saw Josh scan the field and not find anyone open.  

Dorsey's offense was designed to have an answer for everything the defense did. So, lots of option routes for receivers. Lots of diagnosing and checks at the line. It was a cerebral offense. But that put a lot of responsibility on the receivers to do the right thing and for the QB to be always on the same page with them. And that just isn't the kind of QB Josh Allen is. I think the offense had him and his receivers thinking too much. Plus, Allen has always been a guy who likes to see his target open before he fires, rather than throwing it to a spot or leading his receiver.

 

So, ultimately that is on Dorsey for not designing an offense that worked with his super star QB or the pieces he had, but that doesn't mean it was a bad scheme. There are plenty of QB's who would do well in a system like that.

 

And I don't think Dorsey called low percentage or predictable plays. I think Allen took the low percentage options perhaps too much, maybe because his reads took him there, or maybe because he trusted Diggs and Davis too much to bring in the long bombs.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

I'm not a big fan of ex QB as OC's when they have a great QB as think they see themselves in the QB's eyes and think to themselves, if I had his talent, I'd have been a star and try to get to cute in game planning and show what could do.

[4merper4mer]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Fwiw I hope I'm wrong about this coming year the g tobviously 

 

But the roster+what we saw last season leads me to believe they're going w a much more conservative approach and I think it's going to produce a significantly less productive offense

I like McDermott and maybe his style will win, but the offense will not be what it once was.  He’s made post game comments after WINS about better complementary football which implied the offense scored too quickly for his liking.  It’s not without some truth; balance is important and our defense was decimated with injuries which could have been the result of overuse, but……

 

look at the play calling and results of the first Miami game last year.  Then look at the play calling in the Jax debacle the following week.  The same guy did both those things?  Or was our HC setting too many parameters?
 

Brady’s play calling wasn’t terrible but his full body of work has yet to reveal itself and our best weapon non-qb has been discarded.  We’ll see.

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I never said he lacked imagination - though I wouldn't disagree with that assessment.  

 

I think he had some slumps as a playcaller where he'd call low-percentage and/or predictable plays.  

 

I also think he was poor with schemes.  Too often we saw Josh scan the field and not find anyone open.  

Again simply a gross misrepresentation of the offense under Dorsey

 

poor and predictable schemes do not result in this

 

https://x.com/minakimes/status/1724466437190975685

[US Egg]

1 hour ago, dma0034 said:

When things went well the Bills were curb stomping teams.

…..and sometimes a few words can paint a picture.

[BobbyC81]

3 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

I think Dorsey was good. Tough being a first-time OC. I think he will only get better. 
 

That said, he isn’t calling the plays in Cleveland. 

Is this Ken?

[DrPJax]

5 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

I think Dorsey was good. Tough being a first-time OC. I think he will only get better. 
 

That said, he isn’t calling the plays in Cleveland. 

Only one way to go after flaming out part way thru a season and getting canned by a guy who made you qb coach In charge of a true unicorn , certain HOF athlete with intelligence, a cannon for an arm , and legs of a gazelle!  
 

 

DOWN !   He will only get worse with that ownership group and a qb who is more concerned with getting relief from his trigger points , than actually pulling the trigger in one of the more snakebitten franchises than BUFFALO , and even managed to leave the league a couple of seasons and have never even made it to a superbowl , let alone make it to 4 straight despite the losses!    Yeah , he has a bright future that’s going to require shades!    He and Watson should have nothing but great success!  All I can say is time to invest in Microsoft tablets cuz with Watson and Dorsey together they will be the antithesis of the cardiac kids and I foresee at least two tablets a game bouncing off all the crap in Lake Erie. Go brownies

[Doc Brown]

6 hours ago, MJS said:

Why do you think Dorsey lacked imagination? I just think his concepts and scheme didn't align well with Josh Allen's strengths and weaknesses. Josh Allen needs a little less structure and a little more room to improvise.

I've heard that criticism before and I still have no clue what that means.  Dorsey to me was a reactive and predictable play caller.  I don't think it was an accident the turnovers went down when Dorsey was fired.  His in game adjustments weren't great either.  I'm not sold on Brady yet either but like that this team stylistically is changing on offense.  Evolve or die.

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He was also sacked the second most times in his career, damn Dorsey for calling all those sack plays!

I figured you knew better than to conflate rush attempts w called QB runs, maybe you don't. Regardless, I have a feeling this season is going to be eye opening for a lot of folks

 

This season may go south, but it won't be because they don't have Ken Dorsey. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Stefanski is still calling the plays this year

Dorsey will just help install the weekly gameplan

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Stefanski is still calling the plays this year

Dorsey will just help install the weekly gameplan

 

What is interesting is while both Stefanski and Dorsey come from WCO roots they very much represent the two different branches that the west coast offense tree is now represented by in the NFL. Stefanski is from the Shanahan / Kubiak stretch zone branch and Dorsey represents the Andy Reid spread principles branch. It's also of course NOT the offense that DeShaun Watson's success came in, before all of his off the field behaviour came to light, which was the EP with Bill O'Brien in Houston. I wonder if the reason for the Dorsey hire is his familiarity with the EP and the verbiage from it through Brian Daboll in Buffalo and his ability to help translate some of those concepts into the WCO scheme? Will be fascinating to observe that conceptual marriage and how it works.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What is interesting is while both Stefanski and Dorsey come from WCO roots they very much represent the two different branches that the west coast offense tree is now represented by in the NFL. Stefanski is from the Shanahan / Kubiak stretch zone branch and Dorsey represents the Andy Reid spread principles branch. It's also of course NOT the offense that DeShaun Watson's success came in, before all of his off the field behaviour came to light, which was the EP with Bill O'Brien in Houston. I wonder if the reason for the Dorsey hire is his familiarity with the EP and the verbiage from it through Brian Daboll in Buffalo and his ability to help translate some of those concepts into the WCO scheme? Will be fascinating to observe that conceptual marriage and how it works.

Excellent points

From what I have heard he is supposed to be helping install some of the RPO concepts that Stefanski doesn't usually use but obviously Josh and Dorsey used quite a bit

[JP51]

This should be interesting... he was a young OC who did a fairly good job, certainly not incompetent but I wouldnt call him an innovator either. I think he got wrapped in the makes Diggs happy situation (maybe Josh a little bit too) and the offense quickly got figured out as defenses focused on Diggs. Dorsey leaves and the offense spreads it around, has a more focused running game (including Josh) and begins to succeed again. I wonder, and I know if I were him I would, if he doesnt look back at that see what changed and grow a bit from it.... again, should be interesting in Cleveland... then again with DW who knows how this goes. 

[JohnNord]

I never understand people who passionately defend Dorsey like this.  At best, he was an average OC that struggled to find a counterpunch when the offense wasn’t clicking.  
 

His fastball was force feeding the ball to Diggs and the occasional deep shot to Davis.  
 

I’d agree with whoever said he lacked imagination.  Every possession just seemed like it was so hard to move the ball if there wasn’t a deep shot to Diggs.  Some of his passing concepts were just strange with two receivers ending up in the spot on the field.  
 

I also don’t think Dorsey did a great job utilizing on offense.  This something Brady did a much better job with.  
 

In the end, McDermott made the right call turning the page with Dorsey.  The struggles on offense in 2023 looked similar to the end of 2022 in spots.
 

 

[JohnNord]

32 minutes ago, JP51 said:

This should be interesting... he was a young OC who did a fairly good job, certainly not incompetent but I wouldnt call him an innovator either. I think he got wrapped in the makes Diggs happy situation (maybe Josh a little bit too) and the offense quickly got figured out as defenses focused on Diggs. Dorsey leaves and the offense spreads it around, has a more focused running game (including Josh) and begins to succeed again. I wonder, and I know if I were him I would, if he doesnt look back at that see what changed and grow a bit from it.... again, should be interesting in Cleveland... then again with DW who knows how this goes. 

I don’t know… I think overall he was an average OC.   His offense seemed to start strong, but ended up struggling when defenses adjusted.  
 

What would you label as Dorsey’s signature win as OC?

 

Week 1 vs. LAR?

[May Day 10]

13 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Dorsey got fired, the Bills did better.....but I think he gets way over blamed...he was the fall guy when the defensive or teams staff did not know how to get 11 guys on the field.   The Bills clearly tried to get Josh to run less and after Dorsey was fired, the season in peril, the training wheels came off, Brady had Josh the runner at his disposal.

 

The two biggest gaffes that led to his firing were 11 guys on the field, and the 2 Cover 0 blitzes.

 

[babulator]

11 hours ago, MJS said:

Dorsey's offense was designed to have an answer for everything the defense did. So, lots of option routes for receivers. Lots of diagnosing and checks at the line. It was a cerebral offense. But that put a lot of responsibility on the receivers to do the right thing and for the QB to be always on the same page with them. And that just isn't the kind of QB Josh Allen is. I think the offense had him and his receivers thinking too much. Plus, Allen has always been a guy who likes to see his target open before he fires, rather than throwing it to a spot or leading his receiver.

 

So, ultimately that is on Dorsey for not designing an offense that worked with his super star QB or the pieces he had, but that doesn't mean it was a bad scheme. There are plenty of QB's who would do well in a system like that.

 

And I don't think Dorsey called low percentage or predictable plays. I think Allen took the low percentage options perhaps too much, maybe because his reads took him there, or maybe because he trusted Diggs and Davis too much to bring in the long bombs.

I would just add that this made his offense more... reactionary, as opposed to one that dictates and more heavily schemes what it wants to do. 

[US Egg]

McDermott had to do something, he did.
 

Brady did enough to placate the masses, got the Chiefs to where we wanted them.

 

That said, last season wasn’t on Dorsey.

[dpberr]

My issue with the Ken Dorsey era was that his game plans seemed to pay no attention to 1) weather or 2) what the defense was giving, and that made his strategy predictable as defenses had more "tape" to watch, especially against the more astute DCs like Lou Anarumo.

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, May Day 10 said:

 

The two biggest gaffes that led to his firing were 11 guys on the field, and the 2 Cover 0 blitzes.

 

Which were terrible decisions by Dorsey