Training Camp 8/5

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

You can't go a minute without misquoting someone, can you? Where does this compulsion come from? It's weird. You consistently misquote me. And anyone you disagree with. And now Waldman as well.

 

Where does Waldman say, and I quote you here, "that the quality of your top 2 receiving targets greatly dictates whether you have a chance of reaching a SB or not."

 

I'll wait for a link. 

 

What Waldman actually says is that receivers can be important, that they make a difference, that they help QBs. The usual stuff. The stuff that is correct.

 

He also says that a ton of other things are also important, also make a difference, also make a QB better and a team better.

 

Doubtless he'll also have said, in your mind somewhere, how the Bills have no chance this year because they lost Stef Diggs and don't have a great top two at this point. Must've already ruled out the Bills, since in your mind he said that. "That the quality of your top 2 receiving target greatly dictates whether you have a chance of reaching a SB or not," in your words.

 

Poor guy must have committed harakiri when the Chiefs won the Lombardi last year and their best two were Rice, a rookie #2 who managed 938 yards and ... well, who would you say was their 2nd best? Justin Watson with 460 yards? Skyy Moore with 244? Values-Scantling with 315?

 

Yeah, boy, those top two WRs, whoever you want to say is 2nd, sure did "greatly dictate" that SB win. Wish we had a top two who could combine for stats like that. 

 

Poor Waldman. Anyway, I'll wait for that quote and the link.

 

 

Didn’t you know that not one of those WRs previously had 900 yards?  Making them KCs worst WR unit in the last 40 years+.

 

how could they win the SB?  🧐 

[Low Positive]

16 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Didn’t you know that not one of those WRs previously had 900 yards?  Making them KCs worst WR unit in the last 40 years+.

 

how could they win the SB?  🧐 

I agree with you but, just to play devil's advocate, Kelce is probably the best "receiving target" in the NFL. He plus anyone is a good top-two pass-catching tandem. We hope that Kincaid can become that but it's certainly a risk. One that might cost some people their jobs. 

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Low Positive said:

I agree with you but, just to play devil's advocate, Kelce is probably the best "receiving target" in the NFL. He plus anyone is a good top-two pass-catching tandem. We hope that Kincaid can become that but it's certainly a risk. One that might cost some people their jobs. 

I get it.  I think Kincaid can replicate what Kelce did last season.  But he hasn’t done it yet….so we’re not allowed to talk about it

Edited August 6 by NewEra

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

 

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, bonechiller said:

it's just a flesh wound come on let's go!

Not but a scratch, 

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

You can't go a minute without misquoting someone, can you? Where does this compulsion come from? It's weird. You consistently misquote me. And anyone you disagree with. And now Waldman as well.

 

Where does Waldman say, and I quote you here, "that the quality of your top 2 receiving targets greatly dictates whether you have a chance of reaching a SB or not."

 

I'll wait for a link. 

 

What Waldman actually says is that receivers can be important, that they make a difference, that they help QBs. The usual stuff. The stuff that is correct.

 

He also says that a ton of other things are also important, also make a difference, also make a QB better and a team better.

 

Doubtless he'll also have said, in your mind somewhere, how the Bills have no chance this year because they lost Stef Diggs and don't have a great top two at this point. Must've already ruled out the Bills, since in your mind he said that. "That the quality of your top 2 receiving target greatly dictates whether you have a chance of reaching a SB or not," in your words.

 

Poor guy must have committed harakiri when the Chiefs won the Lombardi last year and their best two were Rice, a rookie #2 who managed 938 yards and ... well, who would you say was their 2nd best? Justin Watson with 460 yards? Skyy Moore with 244? Values-Scantling with 315?

 

Yeah, boy, those top two WRs, whoever you want to say is 2nd, sure did "greatly dictate" that SB win. Wish we had a top two who could combine for stats like that. 

 

Poor Waldman. Anyway, I'll wait for that quote and the link.

 

 

 

 

"However, this standard also includes anticipatory passers with pinpoint placement and there are teams that don’t have a starting quarterback with these qualities."

 

I noticed how you did not highlight that part.

 

Does pinpoint placement sound like Josh Allen to you?   Or maybe more like a Tom Brady or Joe Burrow type?   If I am "misquoting" then you are stretttttttttttching the perception of who Josh Allen is as a QB.

 

Here's a thought......why don't you ask Waldman where he'd rank the Bills WR corps(WR specifically) and get back to us with his answer.  

 

The praise he gives Coleman is faint.

 

He mentions Coleman's ceiling in the same breath as what reception perception would call "Tier 3" receivers.  Guys like Williams and Higgins who are called 1B's but who are really just good, big bodied WR2's who don't separate and are going to look overpaid immediately after they've been extended or if they don't have a pinpoint passer.   I'll give Boldin a pass in that comp because there were a lot less talented WR's(and CB's) in the league when he was playing.

 

Like I've said..........if you are going to give Coleman credit for being able to develop into something much greater than he was in college why can't he eventually develop the nuance of a Davante Adams?    It's not likely,  but I don't buy that his ceiling is as limited as less athletic players like Mike Williams or Tee Higgins.    RAS isn't everything but Higgins was a 4 RAS coming out and Coleman an 8.  They aren't the same, IMO.   It's a lazy comp for such a genius.

[3rdand12]

21 hours ago, ganesh said:

and then make the ones in big moments !!!

its a trick to fool ya into thinking he worth keeping

lol

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Low Positive said:

I agree with you but, just to play devil's advocate, Kelce is probably the best "receiving target" in the NFL. He plus anyone is a good top-two pass-catching tandem. We hope that Kincaid can become that but it's certainly a risk. One that might cost some people their jobs. 

 

 

He's just intentionally conflating two very different points.

 

One is that, barring a trade for a proven commodity,  this Bills WR corps is the first to enter a season without a player who had put up at least a 900 yard season in their career since the mid-80's.    In fact, they have almost ALWAYS had someone with 1,000 yard season in their past going back to when Andre Reed started doing it.  

 

The point simply underscores the leap of faith that they are taking with a prime year of Josh Allen's career.

 

Relative to reaching the SB, it just means that multiple targets probably have to produce well above anything they've done in the NFL before.    That's a bigger ask than some people can understand or want to admit.   

 

The Chiefs have had 2 players finish in the top 32 in the NFL in receiving yards every season since Mahomes has been with the team.    And last year they did it in only 16 games because they rested the starters in the finale.   Contrary to the narrative that they sucked offensively,  they remained a tough matchup in the passing game........especially late in the season when Rice turned into a star.   

 

The Bills have only had 2 receivers in the top 32 once.  In 2020 when they reached the AFCCG for the only time with Allen.  The data is clear.........the quality of your receiving targets is incredibly important if you want to be in the SB.

 

 

[3rdand12]

19 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Love how Josh holds the dog and it just relaxes and goes with it.  

 

I don't like the sound of this.  In OTAs, McGovern was talking about how Josh liked the ball snapped and delivering it that way.

Now Josh is changing what he's used to for McGovern?

 

 

I'd like to better understand what this means.  I know the QB (sometimes the center) calls protections for the OL that are appropriate for the play that's been called and what the defense is showing them.

 

If McGovern tells Josh "No" does that mean he's rejecting the called play?

He should , if he sees a pre snap shift that Josh cant. Or some tell from a LB.

Maybe its just code. hey ! Check out

 if he and Josh are cool with it. So am I.

Bills checked into some poor plays last season that had Josh scrambling more than not. IMHO

[3rdand12]

2 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Not but a scratch, 

A flesh wound , perhaps ?

[3rdand12]

21 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

He's just intentionally conflating two very different points.

 

One is that, barring a trade for a proven commodity,  this Bills WR corps is the first to enter a season without a player who had put up at least a 900 yard season in their career since the mid-80's.    In fact, they have almost ALWAYS had someone with 1,000 yard season in their past going back to when Andre Reed started doing it.  

 

The point simply underscores the leap of faith that they are taking with a prime year of Josh Allen's career.

 

Relative to reaching the SB, it just means that multiple targets probably have to produce well above anything they've done in the NFL before.    That's a bigger ask than some people can understand or want to admit.   

 

The Chiefs have had 2 players finish in the top 32 in the NFL in receiving yards every season since Mahomes has been with the team.    And last year they did it in only 16 games because they rested the starters in the finale.   Contrary to the narrative that they sucked offensively,  they remained a tough matchup in the passing game........especially late in the season when Rice turned into a star.   

 

The Bills have only had 2 receivers in the top 32 once.  In 2020 when they reached the AFCCG for the only time with Allen.  The data is clear.........the quality of your receiving targets is incredibly important if you want to be in the SB.

 

 

Yards dont win football games.

The score does 

 We lost because we couldnt score more than they scored. That is what is clear.

 How you get there can be done a multiple of ways.

 Agreed that a high scoring Offense makes it easier

But look at SF having a double digit  lead and still losing

I am going to gently defend the game is won holistically with many facets during the game.

and we still have Bass. Lets talk about that perhaps lo ?

[BADOLBILZ]

19 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Yards dont win football games.

The score does 

 We lost because we couldnt score more than they scored. That is what is clear.

 How you get there can be done a multiple of ways.

 Agreed that a high scoring Offense makes it easier

But look at SF having a double digit  lead and still losing

I am going to gently defend the game is won holistically with many facets during the game.

and we still have Bass. Lets talk about that perhaps lo ?

 

 

The Chiefs offense produced an incredible 9 yards per play against the Bills in that playoff win last January.

 

That's why they outscored the Bills.   Yards matter.   The Bills probably lose that game 95 times out of 100 allowing 9 yards per play.   They had a chance to make that one game an exception by milking the clock against the more dynamic team.........but they lost their patience at the 2 minute warning........tried to be the kind of big play offense they no longer were.......and when they tried to produce those big pass plays they failed repeatedly.   

[RunTheBall]

The Bills already know 95% of the players who will make the team. MVS is one of them, he’s a lock. 

 

Pre-season is a joke. It’s only relevance is to get the guys in game shape and maybe take a flyer on an UDFA once they’ve figured out who they are stashing on IR.

 

I think it’s hilarious the amount of importance the media and many here at TBD put on pre-season performance. They already know.

 

 

[NoSaint]

On 8/5/2024 at 9:43 AM, FireChans said:

I find it odd MVS is one of the having fun out there guys. Seems like he has neither the contract or pedigree to dictate such behavior.

sometimes guys have to play as the person they are, and not try to pretend they are someone else, to get the best out of themselves.

[Meatloaf63]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The Chiefs offense produced an incredible 9 yards per play against the Bills in that playoff win last January.

 

That's why they outscored the Bills.   Yards matter.   The Bills probably lose that game 95 times out of 100 allowing 9 yards per play.   They had a chance to make that one game an exception by milking the clock against the more dynamic team.........but they lost their patience at the 2 minute warning........tried to be the kind of big play offense they no longer were.......and when they tried to produce those big pass plays they failed repeatedly.   

If the Bills aren’t down Milano, Bernard, Douglas and who else? They win that game 9 times out of 10. But you are right, what they did after the 2 minute warning was absolute stupidity Blame Allen or blame the OC that was ridiculous.

[NeverOutNick]

29 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

The Bills already know 95% of the players who will make the team. MVS is one of them, he’s a lock. 

 

Pre-season is a joke. It’s only relevance is to get the guys in game shape and maybe take a flyer on an UDFA once they’ve figured out who they are stashing on IR.

 

I think it’s hilarious the amount of importance the media and many here at TBD put on pre-season performance. They already know.

 

 

I hope you’re wrong. You’ve got 2 potential studs still under 26 in Claypool and Hamler who if they hit could be every down WRs on our team or most teams in the NFL. They’ve got that kind of talent. MVS is almost 30 years old and a one trick pony. If he was great at that one trick I’d fall in line with a lot of the posts supporting him here BUT he’s a liability with how many drops he’s had. I really hope this is a fair evaluation and best man wins. 

[Mister Defense]

16 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Eh.  I don't think we heard the same thing about Dorsey - we did hear that he tended to get worked up on the sidelines and have the "holy spirit come out of him" (Mitch Morse description) and we all saw him smashing up the booth after the Dolphins Heat Stroke loss.

 

That's not the same thing as having a lot of energy, running from group to group teaching and coaching, and yes, getting worked up during practice

 

But there are other differences:

-As @Buffalo716 has pointed out, in 2018 when Dorsey as QB coach and Mike Shula as OC were fired after 5 years in Carolina, no one in the NFL wanted him.  Shula was hired by the Giants as OC and QB coach, and it's not uncommon that the new OC brings previous assistants with him.  Either Shula didn't want to bring Dorsey, or the Giants didn't want him

-The Bills did confirm him as OC pretty quickly after 2022 so he was under contract, but I don't remember him getting any nibbles as a potential HC in 2022 or as a potential OC in 2021 or earlier

 

In contrast, 41 year old  Bobby Babich had a lot of off-season interest and pretty clearly would have been s n a t c h ed  up as a DC elsewhere if the Bills didn't promote him.

 

I think those differences matter more than any similarities in fiery sideline demeanor

 

Thanks, very good info, and I was just kidding, do not have the same significant reservations this summer about Babich that I had for Dorsey last year. 

 

Last year at this time I had thought that Dorsey was the most significant weakness on the team, and that unless he had been 'coached' up himself throughout the off season that we would continue to see the narrowing and regression of the offense we had seen under him the previous year.  I thought he would be fired sometime before Thanksgiving.

 

But the idea of Babich not being calm enough to be on the sideline does in itself sound a lot like what was said about Dorsey! But Dorsey was also clearly incompetent, plain and simple, had not learned what McDermott had expected him to have learned in all his years as qb and NFL coach.  He had not taken in much beyond his own specific duties, so clearly could not process the big picture, and details,  of an NFL offense. If Cleveland ever decides (they won't) to let him call plays this year, bet against the Browns whenever possible.

 

Babich is an unknown, and likely for most fans, and the leaders at One Bills Drive, there is likely some natural anxiety about what we are going to see this year. All signs seem good so far, and looking forward to seeing how he and this move develop this season.  McDermott will be at his side, no matter the consternation of a small group of irrational haters, helping him in that development. That is what's best.

 

But to me, nothing at all to indicate he won't be good at his job.

 

 

 

Edited August 7 by Mister Defense

[Thurman#1]

18 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

"However, this standard also includes anticipatory passers with pinpoint placement and there are teams that don’t have a starting quarterback with these qualities."

 

I noticed how you did not highlight that part.

 

Does pinpoint placement sound like Josh Allen to you?   Or maybe more like a Tom Brady or Joe Burrow type?   If I am "misquoting" then you are stretttttttttttching the perception of who Josh Allen is as a QB.

 

Here's a thought......why don't you ask Waldman where he'd rank the Bills WR corps(WR specifically) and get back to us with his answer.  

 

The praise he gives Coleman is faint.

 

He mentions Coleman's ceiling in the same breath as what reception perception would call "Tier 3" receivers.  Guys like Williams and Higgins who are called 1B's but who are really just good, big bodied WR2's who don't separate and are going to look overpaid immediately after they've been extended or if they don't have a pinpoint passer.   I'll give Boldin a pass in that comp because there were a lot less talented WR's(and CB's) in the league when he was playing.

 

Like I've said..........if you are going to give Coleman credit for being able to develop into something much greater than he was in college why can't he eventually develop the nuance of a Davante Adams?    It's not likely,  but I don't buy that his ceiling is as limited as less athletic players like Mike Williams or Tee Higgins.    RAS isn't everything but Higgins was a 4 RAS coming out and Coleman an 8.  They aren't the same, IMO.   It's a lazy comp for such a genius.

 

 

That's true, I didn't highlight that part. Or any of the other stuff he wrote that was irrelevant to my point or anything else you said that I was replying to.

 

I got an idea, why don't you go back, and highlight all the other stuff that was irrelevant to our argument? Why stop at only a few irrelevant sentences?

 

Does poinpoint placement sound like Josh Allen to me? Um, yeah. It absolutely does.

 

Allen isn't as consistent as Burrow or Brady with it, but he's absolutely a guy who hits poinpoint passes multiple times every single game.

 

 

 

By the way, STILL WAITING FOR THAT LINK!!! You're going to get back to us about that statement you attributed to Waldman, aren't you? Remember? When you said that Waldman said, ""that the quality of your top 2 receiving targets greatly dictates whether you have a chance of reaching a SB or not."

 

 

 

I think we're all waiting for that. For all I know, he did say it I don't read everything he says. Yet strangely, you overlooked replying about that. Don't worry, I'm sure we're all willing to wait. You hang in there and keep looking. Don't worry, I won't let you forget.

 

Oh, and never change, dude. I point out how you're consistently changing misrepresenting people's statements. And you jump right in and do it again to prove my point. Thanks for that. We can always chuckle at another example of this from you.

 

You say, "The praise he gives Coleman is faint." So, for those keeping score, here is some of the "faint" praise he gives Coleman ... from the article Badol is referring to:

 

"Coleman is on the cusp of the Franchise Tier: Immediate production and leadership anchor."

 

"Coleman’s contested-catch ability—arguably the best in this class"

 

"Coleman often earns 1-2 steps on cornerbacks within the first 12-15 yards of a route and he routinely stacks them to cut off their position for the remainder of the route."

 

"his breaks are sharp and flat,"

 

"t’s an excellent ceiling."

 

"Coleman has a terrific catch radius and stone-cold confidence about winning the ball between defenders, regardless of how many there are, how big they are, and where they are relative to him and the ball."

 

"runs well after the catch."

 

"What stands out the most about Coleman in this role is how efficiently he changes direction. He flips his hips like a veteran running back and can point the toe to open his hips in tight traffic, which helps him hug blocks, set up opponents into the block, and then bounce outside."

 

"he earns a quick 1-2 steps back to the quarterback on timing routes"

 

"Coleman could have a career similar to Anquan Boldin, Mike Williams, or maybe Brandon Marshall if his route skills carry over and find the right fit with a good quarterback."

 

"Coleman dictates physicality from the release through the catch point."

 

"Coleman has a good feel for pacing in his routes and this helps him tell efficient stories without a lot of wasted movement."

 

"He has an efficient wipe that he’ll combine with a stick to work past defenders playing over him as he works up the seam. He also has an efficient shed in tight quarters to set up the fade."

 

"He’ll use the wipe as a counter to a one-step stretch or double up with an arm-drum. He has a good swat-swim combination. He’ll also steal a release with a patient but a sudden double up with his inside foot after diving inside against off-coverage."

 

 

 

 

And that's only from the first half of the article, there's a ton more. Yeah, I picked only positives. That's to refute your dumb point about "faint praise." 

 

Folks, here's the link:  https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2024/07/30/keon-coleman-matt-waldmans-rsp-pre-nfl-draft-scouting-report/

 

Take a look for yourself at how "faint" his praise is.

 

There are really only two reasons for someone to call that kind of wording "faint praise."

 

The first is that he's an absolute moron. And clearly that's not you. Even your worst enemy wouldn't accuse you of that.

 

The second, though, is that he's desperately trying to make a point and is willing to completely and consciously misrepresent what another man says. And frankly, that's you, all over. Again and again, even just in this thread, but really everywhere.

 

What Waldman actually says is that his evaluation of Coleman requires "nuance and context." "Faint praise," is absolute nonsense. But it certainly is true that Waldman isn't only positive. There's nuance there

 

His praise for Coleman is anything but faint. It's glowing. However, he doesn't have only praise for him. It's nuanced. But positive enough that his Player Comparison Spectrum for Coleman is this:  "Anquan Boldin/Mike Williams - X - Tee Higgins." And his summary is, "Coleman is on the cusp of the Franchise Tier: Immediate production and leadership anchor."

 

"Faint praise"? That's not just wrong, it's deliberately misleading about what Waldman actually says.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 7 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, RunTheBall said:

The Bills already know 95% of the players who will make the team. MVS is one of them, he’s a lock. 

 

Pre-season is a joke. It’s only relevance is to get the guys in game shape and maybe take a flyer on an UDFA once they’ve figured out who they are stashing on IR.

 

I think it’s hilarious the amount of importance the media and many here at TBD put on pre-season performance. They already know.

 

 

 

 

95% is high. That would translate to already knowing 48 out of 51. They don't know with nearly that much precision.

 

I mean, of course 75% to 85% they know, barring major surprises. But after that it's absolutely affected by camp and the pre-season.

 

And IMO MVS is not a lock by any means. He would have been if performing up to expectations, but he hasn't. Somewhere between a 40% - 80% chance he stays, maybe, at a guess.

[Thurman#1]

18 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

He's just intentionally conflating two very different points.

 

One is that, barring a trade for a proven commodity,  this Bills WR corps is the first to enter a season without a player who had put up at least a 900 yard season in their career since the mid-80's.    In fact, they have almost ALWAYS had someone with 1,000 yard season in their past going back to when Andre Reed started doing it.  

 

The point simply underscores the leap of faith that they are taking with a prime year of Josh Allen's career.

 

Relative to reaching the SB, it just means that multiple targets probably have to produce well above anything they've done in the NFL before.    That's a bigger ask than some people can understand or want to admit.   

 

The Chiefs have had 2 players finish in the top 32 in the NFL in receiving yards every season since Mahomes has been with the team.    And last year they did it in only 16 games because they rested the starters in the finale.   Contrary to the narrative that they sucked offensively,  they remained a tough matchup in the passing game........especially late in the season when Rice turned into a star.   

 

The Bills have only had 2 receivers in the top 32 once.  In 2020 when they reached the AFCCG for the only time with Allen.  The data is clear.........the quality of your receiving targets is incredibly important if you want to be in the SB.

 

 

 

 

The Chiefs may have had two players finish in the top 32 in the NFL in receiving yards every season since Mahomes has been with the team.

 

But as recently as ... oh, yeah, last year, when they won a Lombardi ... only one of those players was a WR, Rashee Rice. Oh, and I love the way you said "the top 32." What a coincidence you picked 32 instead of 30. Rashee Rice was #32, with 938 yards. Their second-best WR last year, Watson, finished at #95 in the league in receiving yards.

 

#32 and #95 as the top two WRs on a Super Bowl winning team. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

Throw in our TE and there's a decent chance we too have two players finish in the top 32 this year. Hell, Curtis Samuel finished at #33 in 2020, and that was with Teddy Bridgewater throwing to him, not Josh Allen.

 

And there's an excellent chance that our top two WRs out-produce the Chiefs top two from last year. They only managed 1398 between the two of them, Rice and Watson. We could easily have our top two WRs total more than that.

 

 

Edited August 7 by Thurman#1