John Elway admits Josh Allen was his biggest regret

[Gregg]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Depends on if the Chefs got Josh the following year.

 

The Chiefs would have won a Lombardi with Josh. Reid is a better HC then Sean and a genius on offense. As I mentioned in a previous post the Chiefs defense steps up in big spots. The Chiefs supporting cast around Mahomes plus coaching is just better than what Allen has. It's the main reason the score between Patrick and Josh is 3-0. 

[amprov56]

57 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Frankly, I think this idea that players' futures are determined by the quality of their coaching is way overblown.  Wherever Allen went, his exceptional talent would have been recognized.   Either his coaches would have recognized it, or he would have moved on to different coaches through free agency.   I mean, we all could see that he was special in preseason games his rookie year.  He made throws in preseason that you just don't see the average NFL QB make. 

 

Great coaching can help average guys become really good, and those kind of guys might have their careers saved by coaching.  Allen was going to be a star, either immediately or soon.  Many people didn't see it when he was in college, and I don't fault them for that.  But anyone who didn't see it in his rookie season has a problem with his football judgment. 

Great post!

[Gregg]

2 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

The main reason that the Bills haven't made it to the Super Bowl is KC with Mahomes.  Take Mahomes away from KC and the Bills win all those playoff games with Mahomes at QB.  Meanwhile, if the Bills draft Mahomes in 2017, Josh Allen ends up in Arizona, so the 2 top QBs are in different conferences, and one can't stop the other getting into the Super Bowl.  

 

The Bills had him beat in the 13 seconds' game. I don't care that the Chiefs had Mahomes, Kelce, and Hill at the time. They had zero shot to win that game unless the Bills messed up 100% which is exactly what happened.

[RoyBatty is alive]

12 hours ago, RaiderDave said:

Who really thought Josh Allen would be for real coming out of Wyoming?

 

Certainly not me.

Terry 

pegula

[Gregg]

12 hours ago, RaiderDave said:

Who really thought Josh Allen would be for real coming out of Wyoming?

 

Certainly not me.

 

Luckily for us Beane.

[Low Positive]

The Broncos had been recently burned by taking a small-school QB with elite traits in Paxton Lynch. Elway was understandably gun-shy at that point on players like that.

[Albany,n.y.]

4 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

The Bills had him beat in the 13 seconds' game. I don't care that the Chiefs had Mahomes, Kelce, and Hill at the time. They had zero shot to win that game unless the Bills messed up 100% which is exactly what happened.

No Mahomes & KC doesn't get the ball to Kelce or Hill.  Also, no Mahomes means KC isn't even in the game.  

1 minute ago, Low Positive said:

The Broncos had been recently burned by taking a small-school QB with elite traits in Paxton Lynch. Elway was understandably gun-shy at that point on players like that.

The Broncos had just signed Case Keenum, so their QB spot was set. 😀

[Mark Vader]

13 hours ago, RaiderDave said:

Who really thought Josh Allen would be for real coming out of Wyoming?

 

Certainly not me.

I thought he would be for real. The college a player attends doesn't equate to the type of success that they will have.

 

That being said, I did not think that Josh Allen would be a once in a generation player.

[May Day 10]

While some teams probably lament the top of that draft (Browns, Jets, Giants, maybe Colts), its probably a lot worse for Broncos fans.  That ended up a bad pick, and Allen really fits that franchise and locale.  

 

Allen was a pretty controversial pick at the time.  A few days before the draft there was a big Allen to the Browns 1OA rumor and they were getting killed for it.  Our fan base was really split over the choice.  I had thought the Bills had been out-foxed by the Jets for Darnold, who is the guy the Bills really wanted (I still wonder if he was their most preferred QB).  

 

Really happy they didnt take Rosen, and he was the only thing I was sure of at the time.  That guy was not a fit here at all, personality-wise.

[DCofNC]

4 hours ago, JP51 said:

Maybin was the one for me then Erik Flowers, JD Williams and Mike Williams for sure.  EJ actually I didnt hate the pick, because I was like finally someone understands that you need a QB to be successful in the league after so many years of trying to re tread backups albiet it was an epic stretch.... Unfortunately, it was also an epic bust. But I gave Whaley credit for trying... but man that was a bad QB draft. 

Funny story, I almost crashed my car over the Maybin pick.  I got stuck having to drive during the draft, so I was listening to the draft on the radio.  I couldn’t believe Orakpo had fallen to us, it was a no brainer, and then they didn’t have a brain.   I threw my hands up in disbelief and hit my wheel on the way up, almost threw my car into a concrete barrier. 
 

That one along with Whitner was just inexcusable with Ngata on the board.   All of that was horrible, but EJ? Oh man, I just gave up.  I used to follow FSU almost exclusively and was PUMPED he was leaving.  Sure enough the Bills take him… I could have lived with it in the 4th round, where most had him ranked, but to trade down and then take him 🤮.  I would have taken GeNO and been ok-ish with it.  At least he was good in college.   Awful, just awful.  Only bonus for me was Winston came in and won the Championship with the same FSU team EJ let down for years, so I got some sort of win.

[_Underscore_]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Frankly, I think this idea that players' futures are determined by the quality of their coaching is way overblown. 

(apologies in advance for the tangent)

 

Respectfully, I only would agree to the extent as it applies to the successes.  I would argue that there are plenty of cases, QBs in particular, where a player's future failure can be attributed to the poor quality of the coaching provided to them.

 

EJ Manual is (in my opinion anyway) a case in point.  When you consider the circumstances, it was almost like there was a conspiracy against the kid: (correct me if I'm mistaken on the details). 

• High character kid with great physical tools and a legacy relationship to Buffalo
• Trade-down and Drafted as a "project" intended to sit and learn under a more experienced hand (i.e. a perfect mentor - Fitz). 
• Buddy is "punked" by TB radio station and Fitzpatrick is cut loose.  Kolb is signed as the "bridge" to mentor EJ.
• EJ injured in preseason, but then forced into duty week 1 when Kolb suffers a career-ending mat injury (I swear, you can't make this stuff up) in August of preseason.  The QB room is EJ, Thad Lewis, Tuel.
• A QB known to have "slow eyes" (thereby needing all the time possible to read defenses) and in need of improved mechanics - Nate Hackett puts him in a up-tempo, no-huddle, read-option-like offense.
• After seeing a hint of success, he gets injured in Cleveland, and has to run said offense without being allowed the "run" option.
• Over the next two years, Marrone and Hacket fiddly-fart around with both the offense and the QB position, eventually settling on (for the love of the Lord) Kyle Orton.
• The regime changes, and Rex comes in - buttsore over Mark Sanchez, and spoiling to prove to the world that he can win without a quarterback.  Enter Tyrod. Bye-bye EJ.

I'm not saying that EJ could have been Josh under different circumstances, but I am saying I definitely believe Josh could have been EJ under similar circumstances - which to a large degree was coaching and organizational management .  I would argue that virtually any rookie QB brought in under these circumstances would fail (Steve Young in Tampa for example).

[JohnNord]

16 hours ago, nedboy7 said:

There were comments suggesting that Allen developed as a result of great coaching in Buffalo which would not have happened in Denver.  Though the board could have fun with that.  

I don’t think it’s a certainty that he turns into the same QB in Denver.  In 2018, the HC was Vance Joseph - a terrible head coach and an average Defensive Coordinator on a good day.  
 

OC was mediocre Bill Musgrave who would be out of the NFL after 2018.  QB Coach was the unspectacular Mike Sullivan.  The roster on offense was terrible.

 

Beane and McDermott, scouted, drafted and set up a good multi-year plan to develop a franchise QB.  Elway tried too with Paxton Lynch and failed badly.  

 

[Doc]

18 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I don’t think it’s a certainty that he turns into the same QB in Denver.  In 2018, the HC was Vance Joseph - a terrible head coach and an average Defensive Coordinator on a good day.  
 

OC was mediocre Bill Musgrave who would be out of the NFL after 2018.  QB Coach was the unspectacular Mike Sullivan.  The roster on offense was terrible.

 

Beane and McDermott, scouted, drafted and set up a good multi-year plan to develop a franchise QB.  Elway tried too with Paxton Lynch and failed badly. 

 

Josh's ascension was mostly due to his efforts to improve his mechanics over the off-season with Jordan Palmer.  He had the other stuff that you can't teach.  He would have succeeded anywhere.

[Shaw66]

22 minutes ago, _Underscore_ said:

(apologies in advance for the tangent)

 

Respectfully, I only would agree to the exten  

 

I'm not saying that EJ could have been Josh under different circumstances, but I am saying I definitely believe Josh could have been EJ under similar circumstances - which to a large degree was coaching and organizational management .  I would argue that virtually any rookie QB brought in under these circumstances would fail (Steve Young in Tampa for example).

Oh, wow, I don't agree.  Yes, no amount of coaching would have made EJ into Josh, but I think in a different environment, EJ could have developed into a journeyman backup and even passable NFL starter.  EJ could have been Gino Smith in a better environment.

 

But I don't think for a minute that Josh could have been EJ.  I think there are very few circumstances under which Josh would have been a feared QB.   He is naturally a better thrower than all but maybe a dozen QBs in the history of the league, and he is naturally a better runner than all but maybe a half dozen QBs since the 80s, when passing became more important.  No matter how badly his rookie season might have gone, some serious coach would have gotten a hold of him.  There was no denying, from the very beginning, that Josh made plays.  

 

You want an example?  Steve Young.  In his second of two seasons at Tampa, the only season he was the full-time starter, his passer rating was 65.5.  The 49ers traded for him, even though they had Montana.  In part time duty for the next several years, he had passer ratings of 120, 72, 120, and 92.  Then they unloaded Montana, and as a starter Young's passer rating was over 100 in six of the next eight seasons.   The 49ers, and probably most of the rest league, knew that Young was better than he showed in Tampa.  (The Packers trading for Favre is another example.)

 

If Josh had statistical performances for two seasons like Manuel, but if he did the things he can do - running and passing, teams would have been beating down the Bills door to trade for him.  Josh was always going to be Josh, even though most people didn't recognize it when he was coming out of college.  

 

No coaches in the NFL could have done so poorly with Josh that the rest of the league would have given up on him.  

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

 He would have succeeded anywhere.

Or he would have left the hell-hole that somehow couldn't figure out what to do with him.  That is, if for some mysterious reason he didn't become a star on his first team, he would have starred on his second team.  

 

OJ is the non-QB example.   He languished in Buffalo for three seasons before Ralph figured out that he must have idiots for coaches.  He brought Saban back, and VOILA!  Hall of Famer.  If Ralph hadn't made the move, OJ would have been on another team, and he would have blossomed.  It simply isn't possible to coach that kind of talent OUT of a player.  

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

15 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I picked the right Allen

Prove it

[ColoradoBills]

[Doc]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Or he would have left the hell-hole that somehow couldn't figure out what to do with him.  That is, if for some mysterious reason he didn't become a star on his first team, he would have starred on his second team.  

 

OJ is the non-QB example.   He languished in Buffalo for three seasons before Ralph figured out that he must have idiots for coaches.  He brought Saban back, and VOILA!  Hall of Famer.  If Ralph hadn't made the move, OJ would have been on another team, and he would have blossomed.  It simply isn't possible to coach that kind of talent OUT of a player.  

 

He wouldn't have been able to leave for 5 years, maybe longer if they tagged him.  And in Denver, he could have easily gotten a good OC.

[JohnNord]

23 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Josh's ascension was mostly due to his efforts to improve his mechanics over the off-season with Jordan Palmer.  He had the other stuff that you can't teach.  He would have succeeded anywhere.

I don’t agree…

[PBF81]

Six teams share the same regret.