John Elway admits Josh Allen was his biggest regret

[Doc]

1 minute ago, JohnNord said:

I don’t agree…

 

Fair enough.

[PBF81]

4 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

The Chiefs would have won a Lombardi with Josh. Reid is a better HC then Sean and a genius on offense. As I mentioned in a previous post the Chiefs defense steps up in big spots. The Chiefs supporting cast around Mahomes plus coaching is just better than what Allen has. It's the main reason the score between Patrick and Josh is 3-0. 

 

Reid knows offense whereas McD does not. 

 

If the core element to your entire team is an offensive piece, best to have an offensive person behind the reigns.  

 

It's a pretty simple concept.  It's also why you often see me ask if Allen predated McD, would McD have gotten the job.  It seems incredibly unlikely.  

 

 

Edited July 30 by PBF81

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

He wouldn't have been able to leave for 5 years, maybe longer if they tagged him.  And in Denver, he could have easily gotten a good OC.

If he played like Manuel played, the Bills wouldn't have exercised the 5th year option and they certainly wouldn't have tagged him. He would have been gone after 4 years and somebody with some brains would have hired him and allowed him to be the player that he is.

[Rampant Buffalo]

9 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Lucky for this franchise they have a GM who knows his stuff. Brandon Bean the wizard😁

 

Let's say you're the GM of an expansion team. You don't have a first round pick. Instead of that first round pick, you're allowed to choose one of two options. Option 1) You get a rookie age Josh Allen. Option 2) You get rookie age versions of all other Brandon Beane draft picks combined. Which of these options would you choose?

 

For me, option 2 is tempting. I'd love to add guys like Dalton Kincaid, Shakir, Rousseau, Oliver, etc. to my football team. But at the end of the day, I know which option I'm picking. And it's not even close.

 

Of the good that Beane has done in the draft, more than half was achieved with a single pick.

[Augie]

 

 

I can’t imagine how many girls have said that about me……

[JohnNord]

4 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Terry 

pegula

Josh was Beane and McDermott.  Terry allegedly loved Mahomes in 2017.

[_Underscore_]

45 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

some serious coach would have gotten a hold of him...

Thank you for the thoughtful response.  I appreciate your opinion (perhaps bringing EJ into it was ill-advised on my part), but your statement alludes to my point.  If the individual is a bust under bad coaching, and develops into a hall of famer under good coaching, then is the value of coaching not overblown?  History is littered with strong arms that didn't get the second chance.  I wonder how many of them would have found their way given time and opportunity.

 

Look, I'm a huge fan of Josh for a lot of reasons, so I'm not trying to take anything away from the unicorn-like physical and psychological traits.  It's true that he has both a ton of superlative physical traits and a great attitude (drive, work ethic, the wisdom to seek help with his mechanics, etc.), but my opinion is that his development here was almost a perfect storm (in a good way).  Coaches, GM, OC, owner and fan base gave him an almost perfect environment to flourish.  If he had a coach that encouraged "Sugar Rush Josh", I'm not as sure that a serious coach would have taken the chance rather than pick a fresh one off the tree.  

 

I believe that success is generally when everything (everybody) goes right.  It only takes one week link to fail and it's failure - and early-career coaching is one of those potential weak links.  Thank goodness we're finally free of that cycle.

 

Anyway, thanks for the good dialog.  Cheers

[ToGoGo]

5 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

The Bills had him beat in the 13 seconds' game. I don't care that the Chiefs had Mahomes, Kelce, and Hill at the time. They had zero shot to win that game unless the Bills messed up 100% which is exactly what happened.

Which is why I roll my eyes at “Allen needs to be more like a CEO”. 
 

All he’s done is win since he got here. Instead of trying to change him we should be trying to learn from him. 

12 minutes ago, _Underscore_ said:

Thank you for the thoughtful response.  I appreciate your opinion (perhaps bringing EJ into it was ill-advised on my part), but your statement alludes to my point.  If the individual is a bust under bad coaching, and develops into a hall of famer under good coaching, then is the value of coaching not overblown?  History is littered with strong arms that didn't get the second chance.  I wonder how many of them would have found their way given time and opportunity.

 

Look, I'm a huge fan of Josh for a lot of reasons, so I'm not trying to take anything away from the unicorn-like physical and psychological traits.  It's true that he has both a ton of superlative physical traits and a great attitude (drive, work ethic, the wisdom to seek help with his mechanics, etc.), but my opinion is that his development here was almost a perfect storm (in a good way).  Coaches, GM, OC, owner and fan base gave him an almost perfect environment to flourish.  If he had a coach that encouraged "Sugar Rush Josh", I'm not as sure that a serious coach would have taken the chance rather than pick a fresh one off the tree.  

 

I believe that success is generally when everything (everybody) goes right.  It only takes one week link to fail and it's failure - and early-career coaching is one of those potential weak links.  Thank goodness we're finally free of that cycle.

 

Anyway, thanks for the good dialog.  Cheers

What perfect storm? The Kelvin Benjamin and Robert Foster storm? The great Daboll coaching his way to unemployment in NY? 
 

Revisionist history. Allen had one of the worst rookie situations in recent memory. No QB had ever come out of a situation like that unscathed in a long time. And the ones that have were pro ready, and not raw like him. 

[PrimeTime101]

1 hour ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Prove it

LOL stop it.

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 hour ago, JohnNord said:

Josh was Beane and McDermott.  Terry allegedly loved Mahomes in 2017.

They way I recall is Pegula was high in Mahomes but also high on Allen after that small private plane ride they took to see him in Wyoming.

[Don Otreply]

Hindsight is a cruel master Mr Elway…, 

[_Underscore_]

1 hour ago, ToGoGo said:

What perfect storm? The Kelvin Benjamin and Robert Foster storm? The great Daboll coaching his way to unemployment in NY?

I'm not saying he was in the perfect situation to win immediately.  I'm saying that there were organizational structure and strategies that afforded him the time to develop long-term career skills in the same way other organizations might not.

 

Again, my opinion, but:

• Organizational stability (the same staff for the first three years -  and yes, including Daboll, who I do not think is "great", but was good and the stability of the same scheme for the first two or three years was advantageous for Josh's development).
• Management that tolerated the growing pains and didn't expect him to be the immediate savior.
• Investment in the O line (which went from horrendous to "sorta OK" in the Morse, Spain, Feliciano et. al.).
• Fans/local media that (mostly) didn't turn on him every time the team lost.

 

I believe "the Process" - as much as others may disagree, helped Josh find his footing in a way he might not have in NYJ or Cleveland.  This goes back to my original point, that coaching and the support system around a new player has a significant impact on long-term outcome.

Edited July 31 by _Underscore_

[ToGoGo]

6 minutes ago, _Underscore_ said:

I'm not saying he was in the perfect situation to win immediately.  I'm saying that there were organizational structure and strategies that afforded him the time to develop long-term career skills in the same way other organizations might not.

 

Again, my opinion, but:

• Organizational stability (the same staff for the first three years -  and yes, including Daboll, who I do not think is "great", but was good and the stability of the same scheme for the first two or three years was advantageous for Josh's development).
• Management that tolerated the growing pains and didn't expect him to be the immediate savior.
• Investment in the O line (which went from horrendous to "sorta OK" in the Morse, Spain, Feliciano et. al.).
• Fans/local media that (mostly) didn't turn on him every time the team lost.

 

I believe "the Process" - as much as others may disagree, helped Josh find his footing in a way he might not have in NYJ or Cleveland.  This goes back to my original point, that coaching and the support system around a new player has a significant impact on long-term outcome.

The Process was definitely good. The Process is faith-based. Build the foundation, build great character, trust in God, and the championships will follow. 
 

But the roster makeup was terrible. Furthermore, I’m a big believer Allen was better for Daboll than visa versa. Not to mention the horrible media narratives that can grate on a players mind. I believe Daboll was anti-Process and all about numero uno. 
 

It was an incredibly difficult first few years which Allen held on for, and even managed to get us to the playoffs. 
 

McDermott will be a SB winning coach, but Allen will be a GOAT. He would’ve succeeded anywhere. 

[_Underscore_]

I can agree with much of that.  Thanks for elaborating.  It's all good.  Go Bills

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, _Underscore_ said:

Thank you for the thoughtful response.  I appreciate your opinion (perhaps bringing EJ into it was ill-advised on my part), but your statement alludes to my point.  If the individual is a bust under bad coaching, and develops into a hall of famer under good coaching, then is the value of coaching not overblown?  History is littered with strong arms that didn't get the second chance.  I wonder how many of them would have found their way given time and opportunity.

 

Look, I'm a huge fan of Josh for a lot of reasons, so I'm not trying to take anything away from the unicorn-like physical and psychological traits.  It's true that he has both a ton of superlative physical traits and a great attitude (drive, work ethic, the wisdom to seek help with his mechanics, etc.), but my opinion is that his development here was almost a perfect storm (in a good way).  Coaches, GM, OC, owner and fan base gave him an almost perfect environment to flourish.  If he had a coach that encouraged "Sugar Rush Josh", I'm not as sure that a serious coach would have taken the chance rather than pick a fresh one off the tree.  

 

I believe that success is generally when everything (everybody) goes right.  It only takes one week link to fail and it's failure - and early-career coaching is one of those potential weak links.  Thank goodness we're finally free of that cycle.

 

Anyway, thanks for the good dialog.  Cheers

Thanks.  Great response.  

 

I absolutely agree that coaching is important, and I don't doubt that Josh has been helped along the way by the coaches he's had with the Bills.  I just think there's a limit, and I think when you're talking about a transcendent talent, which is what Josh is, coaching can't ruin him.  It may limit his success, but it can't ruin him.  Josh was going to be a successful QB in the NFL, regardless of which team drafted him, because he simply is too talented and too smart and too well grounded to have been a bust.  

[Rampant Buffalo]

3 hours ago, _Underscore_ said:

(apologies in advance for the tangent)

 

Respectfully, I only would agree to the extent as it applies to the successes.  I would argue that there are plenty of cases, QBs in particular, where a player's future failure can be attributed to the poor quality of the coaching provided to them.

 

EJ Manual is (in my opinion anyway) a case in point.  When you consider the circumstances, it was almost like there was a conspiracy against the kid: (correct me if I'm mistaken on the details). 

• High character kid with great physical tools and a legacy relationship to Buffalo
• Trade-down and Drafted as a "project" intended to sit and learn under a more experienced hand (i.e. a perfect mentor - Fitz). 
• Buddy is "punked" by TB radio station and Fitzpatrick is cut loose.  Kolb is signed as the "bridge" to mentor EJ.
• EJ injured in preseason, but then forced into duty week 1 when Kolb suffers a career-ending mat injury (I swear, you can't make this stuff up) in August of preseason.  The QB room is EJ, Thad Lewis, Tuel.
• A QB known to have "slow eyes" (thereby needing all the time possible to read defenses) and in need of improved mechanics - Nate Hackett puts him in a up-tempo, no-huddle, read-option-like offense.
• After seeing a hint of success, he gets injured in Cleveland, and has to run said offense without being allowed the "run" option.
• Over the next two years, Marrone and Hacket fiddly-fart around with both the offense and the QB position, eventually settling on (for the love of the Lord) Kyle Orton.
• The regime changes, and Rex comes in - buttsore over Mark Sanchez, and spoiling to prove to the world that he can win without a quarterback.  Enter Tyrod. Bye-bye EJ.

I'm not saying that EJ could have been Josh under different circumstances, but I am saying I definitely believe Josh could have been EJ under similar circumstances - which to a large degree was coaching and organizational management .  I would argue that virtually any rookie QB brought in under these circumstances would fail (Steve Young in Tampa for example).

 

Having watched my share of Manuel's college play, I would say that neither his accuracy nor his information processing were better than what I'd expect from a typical college QB. Probably below-average for a college QB, at least for information processing. So why draft him? He had good physical tools. Whaley was really excited by the commanding presence Manuel had when he entered a room.

 

In the NFL, Manuel was the exact same guy he'd been in college. Manuel did not improve over time. He was no better in year 5 than he'd been as a rookie.

 

Manuel's physical tools were good, but not good enough. When Rex Ryan was hired as head coach, he chose Greg Roman as his offensive coordinator. Roman's offense feeds off of a QB's running ability. Manuel (4.6 in the 40) was benched in favor of Tyrod Taylor (4.4 in the 40). That offense benefited from the extra running speed Tyrod was able to provide.

 

If you want a passing QB, you'll get more from Kyle Orton than you'd get from Manuel. If you want a running QB, you'll get more from Tyrod than from Manuel.

 

[Doc]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

If he played like Manuel played, the Bills wouldn't have exercised the 5th year option and they certainly wouldn't have tagged him. He would have been gone after 4 years and somebody with some brains would have hired him and allowed him to be the player that he is.

 

Sure if he played like Manuel played, the Bills wouldn't have exercised the option.  But he didn't.  He worked hard to improve his mechanics on his own.  He would have done that no matter where he went.

[Shaw66]

49 minutes ago, _Underscore_ said:

I'm not saying he was in the perfect situation to win immediately.  I'm saying that there were organizational structure and strategies that afforded him the time to develop long-term career skills in the same way other organizations might not.

 

Again, my opinion, but:

• Organizational stability (the same staff for the first three years -  and yes, including Daboll, who I do not think is "great", but was good and the stability of the same scheme for the first two or three years was advantageous for Josh's development).
• Management that tolerated the growing pains and didn't expect him to be the immediate savior.
• Investment in the O line (which went from horrendous to "sorta OK" in the Morse, Spain, Feliciano et. al.).
• Fans/local media that (mostly) didn't turn on him every time the team lost.

 

I believe "the Process" - as much as others may disagree, helped Josh find his footing in a way he might not have in NYJ or Cleveland.  This goes back to my original point, that coaching and the support system around a new player has a significant impact on long-term outcome.

Oh, I just saw this.  It's really good.  I get your point.  I like it.  

 

But I still don't buy it.  Would Josh have failed in Cleveland?   I don't think so.  I think you look at Mayfield and Manziel and others who have been there - they all were flawed QBs, and they were seen to be when they moved to other places.   Mayfield would have been better in a better situation, but he still would have been a weak-armed guy who is a great competitor.  Would it have been harder for Josh in Cleveland?  Yes.  But Buffalo wasn't all that great.  McDermott didn't want to play Josh as a rookie, and couldn't even get through one game game before he needed him.  McDermott's whole plan for nurturing him went out the window before October.  

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Sure if he played like Manuel played, the Bills wouldn't have exercised the option.  But he didn't.  He worked hard to improve his mechanics on his own.  He would have done that no matter where he went.

Absolutely.  I agree.   

 

The whole point, that I think you and I agree on, is that there would have been pretty much NO circumstances where Allen wouldn't have succeeded.  He's too good, physically, mentally, character-wise, any other way you want to look at it, not to have made it.  He is, as I said, transcendent.  

 

And, miraculously, after 60 years of being a fan of this team, this transcendent QB is a Buffalo Bill.   How great is that?

[JP51]

6 hours ago, DCofNC said:

Funny story, I almost crashed my car over the Maybin pick.  I got stuck having to drive during the draft, so I was listening to the draft on the radio.  I couldn’t believe Orakpo had fallen to us, it was a no brainer, and then they didn’t have a brain.   I threw my hands up in disbelief and hit my wheel on the way up, almost threw my car into a concrete barrier. 
 

That one along with Whitner was just inexcusable with Ngata on the board.   All of that was horrible, but EJ? Oh man, I just gave up.  I used to follow FSU almost exclusively and was PUMPED he was leaving.  Sure enough the Bills take him… I could have lived with it in the 4th round, where most had him ranked, but to trade down and then take him 🤮.  I would have taken GeNO and been ok-ish with it.  At least he was good in college.   Awful, just awful.  Only bonus for me was Winston came in and won the Championship with the same FSU team EJ let down for years, so I got some sort of win.

100% with you shows you how desperate I was to draft a qb to be ok with EJ... forgot about the orakpo thing. Omg epic fail 

[Jerome007]

21 hours ago, RaiderDave said:

Who really thought Josh Allen would be for real coming out of Wyoming?

 

Certainly not me.

I have the fact I barely watch college football on my side ha ha. All I knew is that there were 4 QBs with hype: Mayfield, Rosen, Allen, Darnold. And the Bills traded to move up and take JA at #7, with 2 QBs gone already. So I was thrilled. And for some reason, I liked him right away when he came to the stage, his demeanor, his interactions with fans. So I was onboard from day 1 ha ha. Ignorance is bliss.

 

I couldn't understand the "we picked the wrong Josh" crowd that actually wanted Allen to fail to boost their fragile egos! As a fan, you can be mad at the GM  for the pick, but since JA was our QB, I was rooting 100% for him  to be great, period. He has been even better. His running and leadership have been pleasant surprises.