Training Camp 7/29 - First day of pads

[fergie's ire]

2 hours ago, ALLinALLEN said:

What do you call it then? The first team defense is out there and Hamlin is on it. Is that not beating out everyone else at the position? It's day 5 yes, it might be a premature observation. But i'm not crazy for calling it beating him out.

Do you remember how long in camp it took for rookie Ed Oliver to beat out Jordan Phillips?  Once the season came, Oliver started and while some may question if Oliver lived up to his draft status, he is certainly better than Phillips.  McDermott seems to have a good sense of who needs to be pushed and who needs to be encouraged.  He also uses starting position to reward veterans for past service (as with Phillips).  At least that seems true on the defense.  On offense they seem to want to get players accustomed to playing with Josh.  I feel like we have this discussion almost every year with some player.

[Big Turk]

Was anyone quittin', cause it was too hard hittin'? 

[TheBeaneBandit]

55 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

What?  Bills list Bishop at 207.  I doubt he's 10 pounds heavier than Poyer and Hyde.  

Both Hyde and Poyer played in the 190s.....I think 197 for Hyde and 191 for Poyer.

[Big Turk]

4 hours ago, The Wiz said:

 

 

I think he is going to surprise a lot of people this year...he already has always had a knack for making big plays at big times...now he just needs to work on his consistency.

[Logic]

30 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

31 other NFL teams can see what Buffalo's doing at TC.  If everyone in this thread and identified media can see it, so can opponents.  They'll install the offense and bring it out when they need to.  Or...

 

This offense is about making Josh into someone who takes the easier and more higher percentage throw.  Their receivers are suited to that and those things go together to an extent.  

 

Probably a combination of both.  

Respectfully, I don't buy this notion.

The Chiefs, for instance, have been bombs away in camp. They talked in the offseason about bringing the deep ball back to their offense, and true to their word, they've been winging it all camp long to Hollywood, Worthy, et al.

On the contrary, I think the Bills have very purposefully been trying to make life easier for Josh Allen (who leads the NFL the past four years in TD passes of 10+ yards) and give him easier answers. I think that in year one of Joe Brady, the emphasis will be on getting his more horizontal, matchup based offense installed and getting the offense ready to combat the heavy dose of two-deep coverage shells they'll be seeing. I suspect that after this season, we'll see an emphasis on bringing more of a deep element back to the offense, and the offseason moves will reflect this desire.

To put it simply, I think -- between the exodus of our star WR, the youth movement and diversification of the WR corps, the move to a bigger OL, and the emphasis on horizontal ball movement -- that the Bills are once again a year behind the Chiefs. I don't expect to see a particularly robust downfield element to the Bills passing game this year, at least compared to what we've seen in recent years. That's not to say they can't/won't be a good offense, but simply that I think they're more concerned with making their short and intermediate passing game more lethal, and that it may come at the expense of more frequent and effective downfield passing.

Edited July 29 by Logic

[Big Turk]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

It's actually legitimately crazy that the built-in rollout bootleg game hasn't been a big part of the Bills' playbook up until now. 

Josh Allen rolling out to his right and having the option to either run or pass is arguably when he is at his most lethal. Many of the most impressive plays throughout his pro career have come in this situation.

Count me as a big fan of this development.

 

The last time I remember really seeing that is against TB where the ball got tipped and intercepted near the LOS by an onrushing defender.

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I didn't like the pick to begin with (because of positional value) but no way we should be worried about any player one week into their first ever training camp. At the very least he apparently isn't standing out in a bad way. A 2nd round player getting rotated between the 1s and 2s is exactly where he should be at IMO.

 

Honestly my biggest concern at safety is that Rapp is apparently locked in as one of the starters, getting all 1st team reps so far, and I wish he had some legit competition.

 

My biggest concern is that Rapp continue playing recklessly and injures teammates coming in like a heat seeking missile needlessly on tackles when the player is already going down like he did so many times last year.

[finn]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Neither Poyer nor Hyde were all pro caliber players.  I’m their biggest fan, I’m sad that they’re gone….but their play is part of the reason KC owned us in the playoffs.  Poyer was my guy, but was constantly getting picked on in the biggest games.  
 

that’s not to say I’m not worried about the safeties.  I am 💯 worried-  I think Bishop will be a very good player for us, but I’m not sure if he’ll be good early this season. I think edwards is a great backup and can fill in as starter for now, but his start as a bill has me skeptical for now.  
 

the thought of Rapp and Bishop starting side by side is unsettling.  Both have been prone to head hunting and personal fouls due to being over physical.  I’ll be happy watching them lay the lumber but a little worried about them getting beat deep.

In addition, Hamlin wasn’t inspiring in coverage when filling in for Hyde 2 seasons ago-  sounds like he’s been a little better this camp, but I’d be surprised if he ever turned into a good starter

 

Optimism aside, I agree with your assessment. I favor bringing in Simmons on a one-year contract, if possible, and starting him alongside Edwards while Bishop develops. Hamlin and Rapp as backups. 

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

Poyer and Hyde were all-pro caliber last year?

 

Both gave up passer ratings above 100 last year.  I think thats very replaceable with what we have. 

 

Appreciate your insight on how important safety is to McD defense but surprised you havent realized how well he's been able to get good play out of late round picks that didnt seem up to it.

 

Does he not remember that game against Miami where we held their offense to like 150 yards passing most of the game and under 200 yards total with literally street UDFA's starting at CB for much of the game and both Hyde and Poyer out? The one we lost because half our starters were out injured or with heat stroke.

 

If there is one position you should never worry about McD's ability to coach up it's the DB's.

3 minutes ago, finn said:

Optimism aside, I agree with your assessment. I favor bringing in Simmons on a one-year contract, if possible, and starting him alongside Edwards while Bishop develops. Hamlin and Rapp as backups. 

 

DB is the least of my worries.  McD has consistently shown he can get street FA's to play well in his system time and again and has been down multiple starters and backups numerous times and their replacements played pretty well and the D was fine.

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I think it’s interesting we’ve not seen one deep shot yet all offseason in the highlights.

Bait and switch 

🤣

[The Wiz]

17 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

I think he is going to surprise a lot of people this year...he already has always had a knack for making big plays at big times...now he just needs to work on his consistency.

I'm really curious if things are finally clicking for him or if it was a matter of the DB coaching change.

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, finn said:

Optimism aside, I agree with your assessment. I favor bringing in Simmons on a one-year contract, if possible, and starting him alongside Edwards while Bishop develops. Hamlin and Rapp as backups. 

Yeah, bringing in Simmons would be something.  I don’t see it happening unless these kids don’t step up, which is certainly possible. 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

I have a feeling that once training camp ends, Micah Hyde will be signing on for a farewell tour with the Bills.

FS: Hyde, Hamlin

SS: Rapp, Edwards
Third safety in three safety sets: Cole Bishop.

The only thing I can see changing this is if Bishop (or Hamlin) really start to come on and turn into playmakers at free safety and the need for Hyde is suddenly lessened.

 

I don't know about training camp but I won't be shocked if it's for a playoff push

[stevewin]

Random thoughts on today's practice:

 

- MY 90 yr old dad when he's not yelling at clouds has a tendency to regurgitate the negative narratives he hears on WGR and I figure they must really be bashing Bass on there bc on the drive down the thruway out of nowhere he went into this rant on the guy - he HATES him now 😛

- Mac Hollins first out on field with his glorious hair and bare feet

- Seeing Dion up close walking out to field can confirm his ample TC stomach is intact

- Went up to top of the bleachers to watch players walk out to field from the fieldhouse and saw Astro in his usual spot.  Talked briefly, he's been getting some donated tickets and mentioned the other day he got in on a 'pay it forward' situation where someone had scanned their extra tickets and told the usher to use it for people behind with no tix

- Josh definitely looks slimmer to me, in a good/healthy way

- With his helmet off Bishop looks like a HS kid

- La'el Collins had a big brace on his leg and when he first got on field he started to jog to his position group and was really laboring - think my 90 yr old dad would have looked smoother -  looked like the knee was nowhere close to 100%

- Standing next to other DLine, Solomon looked much shorter and stockier than I imagined.  Carter looked bigger than I thought he would be

- One nice difference this camp is no trainer working Josh's shoulder during warmups 👍

- if I had a camp ticket for every whiny kid complaint around me after 10 mins - "I wanna go down there!" "I wanna get an autograph" "I'm hot!" "I'm bored!".... - I'd have a ticket to every practice for me and my extended family this year

- They worked on the new kickoff for a while.  At first blush the actual meeting of the two sides was much less interesting than I expected - though it is all vanilla now.  The main thing they seemed to be working on was trying to figure out the best way to kick - they even tried some line drives skipping just past the 25

- They were doing some weird drill for TE then Wrs then RBs where one guy would take a ball and jog with a guy jogging next to him halheartledly punching at tje ball while touching the ground twice then diving into a pad - and they were all doing it like 1/2 speed - it was strange 

- Some 1-1 battles: Hamler v Bishop beat him nice sideline route, Xavier Johnson had his db all turned around with 2 sick moves down the middle of the field, Hamler vs Ingram, nice come back route caught a ball off the ground, Benford mugs Keon - if pittsford PD were on the field they'd have arrested him for assault, one receiver (not sure who) dropped a long pass wide open right in his hands - Hamlin beat, Hamler made Elam fall down then dropped ball on slant and dropped for 10 push-ups, Samuel nice move beat Ingram clean - josh long throw slightly off samuel adjusted to ball for td, Hamler gets position on Elam physical battle goes to ground, Elam comes up with ball but wasn't clear if catch was already made, Hamler wins next rep wide open, Benford good D vs Hollins covered like a blanket, Keon nasty comeback vs Ingram left him wide open (lots of separation), long throw to EZ ball just past Keon's outstretched arms had more than a step (lots of separation)

- To me Hamler was a beast this part of practice - I was expecting a little fast smurf, but he was a dog both being physical getting position and fighting Dbs as well as making moves that got him wide open.  Over and over I'd see a wr flash or make a play and it was 19

- They did a drill where rb ran with 2 receivers blocking 2 dbs. Babich  basically went bonkers screaming more than a few times -  Mcd was really into this drill as well.  Bishop ended the drill by completely destroying his guy and blowing up the play

- I haven't read any reports, but for the 'scuffle" I heard the commotion and looked over and saw Bernard running full sprint into Anderson from 5 yds away.  Then it was broken up and ended as fast as it began

- 11-11:

- Bernard killed a man (Ty Johnson) on a sweep, Shavers nice grab on Josh rollout, Davis nice run up middle made 1st guy miss nice move, Nice throw trubisky to Morris under pressure, Bryan thompson wide open long gain 3rd string, Samuel end around made 1st person miss, Davis run - after whistle blew davis kept going, benford chased him down, knocked ball out then went after it with diving "recovery", Shakir wide open long gain no one within 5 yds, Samuel wide open long seam pass, Josh looking deep, looking deep,  check down to davis for 10 yds, Fumbled exchange - Josh held up his hands then wiped them on towel multiple times which made me think it was his fault, Dorian Williams getting left leg/hip worked on on sideline, Evans nice long TD run breaking thru middle - out of nowhere Trubisky appears sprinting all the way down the field to the EZ to escort him in, attempted screen to Samuel - D collapses and thumps from all angle one defender helmet flies off, Groot sack - Williams takes a shot at hollins on the throwaway pass after whistle blew, beautiful long pass down the middle to Shakir, Josh nice sidearm pass avoiding pressure to morris up the middle

- Davis looks tiny until he gets the ball in his hands, then he doesn't look small anymore -  if that makes sense.  Extremely smooth and natural runner i think with deceptive power

- Clapp is a mountain of a human being - holy crap

- Thru 11-11 D was really playing with an edge - if rb kept going after whistle they keep thumping.  Benford and Bernard especially seemed to really have a bug up their butt today.  Lot of contact from D thumping and pushing after whistle blew - not dirty but definitely seemed like they were purposely trying to have/show a physical edge

Edited July 30 by stevewin

[Logic]

1 minute ago, The Wiz said:

I'm really curious if things are finally clicking for him or if it was a matter of the DB coaching change.

I felt like towards the end of his rookie year, he was starting to come on, including making a big play or two in the playoffs. He had all of us hopeful for a big leap in year two. Then, as we've since learned, he injured his foot (ankle?) early in camp and it hampered him all year.

This is year three, and you have to think Elam knows that it's make or break time. It would not surprise me if a guy with his physical talent, work ethic, will to be great, and now -- one would assume -- a big chip on his shoulder, is leaving it all out on the field and finally starting to live up to his draft billing.

It is hard to think of a development that would be more positive for this defense than having Kaiir Elam look like a 1st round, playmaking cornerback. It would be HUGE for this young secondary.

[The Wiz]

Just now, Logic said:

I felt like towards the end of his rookie year, he was starting to come on, including making a big play or two in the playoffs. He had all of us hopeful for a big leap in year two. Then, as we've since learned, he injured his foot (ankle?) early in camp and it hampered him all year.

This is year three, and you have to think Elam knows that it's make or break time. It would not surprise me if a guy with his physical talent, work ethic, will to be great, and now -- one would assume -- a big chip on his shoulder, is leaving it all out on the field and finally starting to live up to his draft billing.

It is hard to think of a development that would be more positive for this defense than having Kaiir Elam look like a 1st round, playmaking cornerback. It would be HUGE for this young secondary.

Completely forgot that came out a few weeks ago.  Thanks for the reminder. 👍

[BigAl2526]

2 hours ago, Brand J said:

I wonder if he came in with an entitled mindset, like a roster spot was guaranteed. I do remember him saying he helped Rodgers and Mahomes to MVPs and SB wins. It’s his wake up call, let’s see how he responds.

Yeah, I saw a quote from him that made it seem as if he thought he was one of the major reasons Rodgers and Mahomes won Super Bowls.

[Don Otreply]

16 minutes ago, Logic said:

Respectfully, I don't buy this notion.

The Chiefs, for instance, have been bombs away in camp. They talked in the offseason about bringing the deep ball back to their offense, and true to their word, they've been winging it all camp long to Hollywood, Worthy, et al.

On the contrary, I think the Bills have very purposefully been trying to make life easier for Josh Allen (who leads the NFL the past four years in TD passes of 10+ yards) and give him easier answers. I think that in year one of Joe Brady, the emphasis will be on getting his more horizontal, matchup based offense installed and getting the offense ready to combat the heavy dose of two-deep coverage shells they'll be seeing. I suspect that after this season, we'll see an emphasis on bringing more of a deep element back to the offense, and the offseason moves will reflect this desire.

To put it simply, I think -- between the exodus of our star WR, the youth movement and diversification of the WR corps, the move to a bigger OL, and the emphasis on horizontal ball movement -- that the Bills are once again a year behind the Chiefs. I don't expect to see a particularly robust downfield element to the Bills passing game this year, at least compared to what we've seen in recent years. That's not to say they can't/won't be a good offense, but simply that I think they're more concerned with making their short and intermediate passing game more lethal, and that it may come at the expense of more frequent and effective downfield passing.

I hear ya, the added benefit to the “more horizontal “ game is it keeps the opposing defense on the field longer, tiring them out, and keeps the opposing offense off the field longer, additionally our defense stays fresher in the later part of the games, we’ll, that’s my hope anyway…, 

[WacArnolds]

2 hours ago, eball said:

 

 

 

Fellas...these things happen in camp.  McGovern is not new to the position; in fact in interviews he has said he prefers it.

 

I understand. I just think the line had good chemistry last year and he played really well at guard. The highest upside for the line to me would seem to be to have the pure center that most seemed to think is a really good center but a center only plug and play there and leave the rest alone. Just my 2 cents.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

55 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

 

 

And he's currently getting cooked.  Even a few bills media members have commented on it.

 

I tend to ignore anyone's football opinion when both the name and username include the word "fantasy". 

 

Great numbers people who look at things like separation and usage, target share, all that stuff to try and project their production at the next level.  But football is... more than that stuff, and film shows more than numbers. 

[NickelCity]

9 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

I tend to ignore anyone's football opinion when both the name and username include the word "fantasy". 

 

Great numbers people who look at things like separation and usage, target share, all that stuff to try and project their production at the next level.  But football is... more than that stuff, and film shows more than numbers. 

 

He had to wait until day 5 for even a whiff of challenging plays for Keon. He had his predetermined point ready to go lol.