Training Camp 7/29 - First day of pads

[DapperCam]

It’s possible that Coleman won’t be able to get great separation in the NFL, but if his hands are elite, he’ll make a great living on jump balls and the scramble drill. NFL DBs are smaller than ever.

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Neither Poyer nor Hyde were all pro caliber players.  I’m their biggest fan, I’m sad that they’re gone….but their play is part of the reason KC owned us in the playoffs.  Poyer was my guy, but was constantly getting picked on in the biggest games.  
 

that’s not to say I’m not worried about the safeties.  I am 💯 worried-  I think Bishop will be a very good player for us, but I’m not sure if he’ll be good early this season. I think edwards is a great backup and can fill in as starter for now, but his start as a bill has me skeptical for now.  
 

the thought of Rapp and Bishop starting side by side is unsettling.  Both have been prone to head hunting and personal fouls due to being over physical.  I’ll be happy watching them lay the lumber but a little worried about them getting beat deep.

In addition, Hamlin wasn’t inspiring in coverage when filling in for Hyde 2 seasons ago-  sounds like he’s been a little better this camp, but I’d be surprised if he ever turned into a good starter

 

Let me say a couple things.  First, there's an interesting discussion of the safeties going on here.  Thanks to everyone.  

 

I'm looking at it optimistically.  I'm counting on McDermott - in fact the safeties this season is a good way to see if McDermott is a master.  This is what Belichick did in his defense throughout the Patriots' success - get really solid but not superstar athletes and coach them to execute the coaches' plan.   I think that's who Hyde and Poyer were - excellent football players but not stars, and McDermott valued them because they really invested in the plan - all of the details of execution of a complicated scheme.  

 

In terms of talent, I'd guess Rapp and Bishop compare favorably.  Strictly physically, which pair would you prefer?  I'd give the nod to Poyer and Hyde, because I think they physically  a little tougher, but I'm okay with the swap.   And I wouldn't be writing off Rapp for lack of discipline or whatever, or Hamlin off for lack of size.  I think you have to be around McDermott for a while, experience how his defense is working.  It takes time.  So, I'm expecting more from Rapp this season, because now he has a full season under his belt.  And I haven't been counting on Hamlin, but this discussion changed my mind about him.  Give him some time.  2022 was essentially his first season, and I thought he struggled.   And I don't count 2023 at all.  I think 2023 was like an extended training camp for Hamlin, because that's what he needed to recover - it was in some ways like he was going through his rookie season all over again.   In other words, I don't think we can assume much of anything from Hamlin based on 2022.  He could very well be better than any of us think.   

 

It certainly is possible, of course, that Rapp doesn't drink the Kool-Aid or whatever, that Hamlin simply just isn't big enough or good enough to do it, that Bishop is slow to develop, that Edwards - whose out now - doesn't rise to the level necessary to be an answer.  Any or all of those could happen.  Still, I think the chances are pretty good that there's one good (good like Hyde and Poyer) safety in that group, and the chances are okay that there are two.  

[HappyDays]

Updates from Matt Parrino:

 

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Some spicy 1on1s WR vs DB.

Some highlights included Curtis Samuel absolutely cooking Ja'Marcus Ingram and hauling in a jumping touchdown grab at the goal line. He landed and his head bounced off the grass and he just popped up and spun the ball. I think guardian caps come in handy on a play like that.

Almost as impressive was the move that KJ Hamler put on Cole Bishop and easily crushing past for a TD.

Tough period for Keon Coleman. Ingram dropped him with a punch to the chest and he never recovered, running the wrong route and an incomplete pass. He caught just one of 4 targets.

 

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Ty Johnson left today's practice after getting lit up by Terrel Bernard. It was one of the first big hits of practice after the pads went on during 11on11. His absence opened the door for some more reps with the ones for Darrynton Evans and Ray Davis. Evans had one run that went the distance, maybe like 60 yards as he just got into the open field, accelerated, and then took it to the house. James Cook was back at practice after getting the personal day yesterday.

 

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Josh Allen was dialed in when they needed him to hit big throws today. The Bills had a heavy run emphasis throughout the afternoon but when they threw the ball, Allen made some big time throws.

He made one to Khalil Shakir on a 3rd and long over the middle that was just hit the back of your drop, stick your back foot in the ground, and sling the rock. It was pinpoint and Shakir went for like 20-25 yards.

The other one was absolutely mind blowing. To watch Allen run full speed to his right and fire a fastball on the money is just art. He had Keon Coleman and put it in the only spot where a play could be made for a first down.

 

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The Tyrell Shavers hype train continues to gain steam. He was back with the first team today and honestly it's considerably more than Claypool has seen for the duration of camp. It feels like the receivers are settling into their roles. Mack Hollins, Curtis Samuel, & Khalil Shakir feel like the top three right now. On any given day, Keon Coleman can push into that mix and unseat Hollins. But after those four, the best wide receiver at camp has been Shavers.

McDermott said this AM that he's been "very impressed" with Shavers.

Today, Shavers made a sensational grab working against Ja'Marcus Ingram, extending his long arms to haul in an Allen throw. Shavers is extremely long with an athletic build and you can tell he's been working on his strength this offseason. He is a fluid route runner and gives smaller DBs issues. The one thing I'm going to watch closely with him though is occasionally he'll toss in a bad drop. He almost needs a perfect preseason without any of those ones to make a real run at the 53. MVS has been meh and Justin Shorter with a forgettable play today when he caught one and had it literally ripped out of his hands by Kaiir Elam.

 

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I finally have the Gable Steveson update so many of you have been waiting for. He blew up Alec Anderson during the 1-on-1 drills and won the rep easily. Anderson got into later in practice with DeShawn Williams in a little skirmish of a fight and you wonder how much that rep stung the third-year blocker. Steveson then had a tackle for a loss on Frank Gore Jr. (I think that was the RB) as he burst into the backfield to blow up a run play. I think that's where Steveson can make the most noise this summer is by finding a way to make some splash plays. I think just that he hasn't looked out of place is a huge win.

 

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Another bad exchange between Connor McGovern and Allen today that went for a fumble. Those are the kinds of plays that are going to continue to worry fans about the switch from Morse to McGovern. I think it's good that they're happening now and maybe it's an issue they're able to work through over the next few weeks.

 

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Deion Jones showed up big with the pads on, notching two tackles for a loss on the day. He was active and brought a ton of energy. At one point Bobby Babich came flying into the play to slap Jones up. Ede Ulosohio had one big highlight on the day, showing off his sideline to sideline pursuit on a great run stuff.

 

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I know I probably sound like a broken record but it's really time to move La'el Collins off the tackle job permanently. He was absolutely cooked by Kameron Cline today and it wasn't even a competitive rep. He's got a huge knee brace on and something on his other calf. He just doesn't have a ton of mobility. I think Richard Gouraige and Tylan Grable are about to pass him on the depth chart.

 

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While on Grable, sheesh he had his first glaring mistake of camp during DL/OL 1v1s. He was up against Javon Soloman and Soloman got into his chest quickly and as Grable tried to get his footing, Soloman punched out to his chest and sent him to the ground. It was a jaw-dropping play because Soloman is a little bit more known for his burst and speed around the edge. If he's able to show off some power all of a sudden, that'll be quite the game changer. Dawuane Smoot spent the day on the first team once again and was in on some nice plays for the front. Greg Rousseau with another sack, throwing Spencer Brown to the ground on his way.

 

[Logic]

I have a feeling that once training camp ends, Micah Hyde will be signing on for a farewell tour with the Bills.

FS: Hyde, Hamlin

SS: Rapp, Edwards
Third safety in three safety sets: Cole Bishop.

The only thing I can see changing this is if Bishop (or Hamlin) really start to come on and turn into playmakers at free safety and the need for Hyde is suddenly lessened.

 

[Dat]

2 hours ago, ALLinALLEN said:

Right? Not only is he not able to beat out Hamlin for starting reps, but I think his physical build is sort of small for the league. Hoping I'm overreacting but it looks kind of like a bust pick to me.

 

Cole Bishop is 2" taller and 10-15 pounds heavier than both Poyer and Hyde along with being faster even when they were in their prime. His burst on sacks looks incredible.

 

Loved Poyer and Hyde but they have lost a step. With some coaching sometime between now and next year at this time he will be up to speed and be fine.

[Coach Tuesday]

30 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Neither Poyer nor Hyde were all pro caliber players.  

 

 

Hyde was 2x 2nd Team AP (2017, 2021), Poyer was 1st Team AP in 2021.

Edited July 29 by Coach Tuesday

[ExWNYer]

10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Let me say a couple things.  First, there's an interesting discussion of the safeties going on here.  Thanks to everyone.  

 

I'm looking at it optimistically.  I'm counting on McDermott - in fact the safeties this season is a good way to see if McDermott is a master.  This is what Belichick did in his defense throughout the Patriots' success - get really solid but not superstar athletes and coach them to execute the coaches' plan.   I think that's who Hyde and Poyer were - excellent football players but not stars, and McDermott valued them because they really invested in the plan - all of the details of execution of a complicated scheme.  

 

In terms of talent, I'd guess Rapp and Bishop compare favorably.  Strictly physically, which pair would you prefer?  I'd give the nod to Poyer and Hyde, because I think they physically  a little tougher, but I'm okay with the swap.   And I wouldn't be writing off Rapp for lack of discipline or whatever, or Hamlin off for lack of size.  I think you have to be around McDermott for a while, experience how his defense is working.  It takes time.  So, I'm expecting more from Rapp this season, because now he has a full season under his belt.  And I haven't been counting on Hamlin, but this discussion changed my mind about him.  Give him some time.  2022 was essentially his first season, and I thought he struggled.   And I don't count 2023 at all.  I think 2023 was like an extended training camp for Hamlin, because that's what he needed to recover - it was in some ways like he was going through his rookie season all over again.   In other words, I don't think we can assume much of anything from Hamlin based on 2022.  He could very well be better than any of us think.   

 

It certainly is possible, of course, that Rapp doesn't drink the Kool-Aid or whatever, that Hamlin simply just isn't big enough or good enough to do it, that Bishop is slow to develop, that Edwards - whose out now - doesn't rise to the level necessary to be an answer.  Any or all of those could happen.  Still, I think the chances are pretty good that there's one good (good like Hyde and Poyer) safety in that group, and the chances are okay that there are two.  

 

Agreed. There are things about McDermott that worry me but coaching up a secondary and getting the most out of their talent...both corners and safeties...is not one of them.

[YattaOkasan]

19 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

It’s possible that Coleman won’t be able to get great separation in the NFL, but if his hands are elite, he’ll make a great living on jump balls and the scramble drill. NFL DBs are smaller than ever.

The smaller DB line reminded me of Coleman blocking.  OMG its so funny.  If you watch his full game reps (not just targets) youll see this consistently. 

 

9 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Hyde was 2x 2nd Team AP (2017, 2021), Poyer was 1st Team AP in 2021.

Of note they were not All pro last year nor were they even really close with coverage ratings > 100

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

17 minutes ago, Logic said:

I have a feeling that once training camp ends, Micah Hyde will be signing on for a farewell tour with the Bills.

FS: Hyde, Hamlin

SS: Rapp, Edwards
Third safety in three safety sets: Cole Bishop.

The only thing I can see changing this is if Bishop (or Hamlin) really start to come on and turn into playmakers at free safety and the need for Hyde is suddenly lessened.

 

 

My guess is we see Hyde in December, after only after a potential injury

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I think it’s interesting we’ve not seen one deep shot yet all offseason in the highlights.

[Shaw66]

17 minutes ago, Dat said:

 

Cole Bishop is 2" taller and 10-15 pounds heavier than both Poyer and Hyde along with being faster even when they were in their prime. His burst on sacks looks incredible.

 

 

What?  Bills list Bishop at 207.  I doubt he's 10 pounds heavier than Poyer and Hyde.  

[Mark Vader]

2 hours ago, ALLinALLEN said:

Am I the only one worried about the Bishop pick? Seems behind where he should be at.....

Yes, you are the only one.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I think it’s interesting we’ve not seen one deep shot yet all offseason in the highlights.

They don't have classic deep speed in the competition, and they're running against a defense that is designed never to give up a deep ball.  Makes some sense. 

 

I think the Bills have the speed necessary to take advantage of defensive weakness in formation or assignment, but not speed that dictates defensive posture whenever that speed is on the field.

[PromoTheRobot]

I hate to break it to everyone but apparently Keon Coleman has been struggling in Bills camp.

🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

If Gable Stevenson makes the team, it will be like a 1 million to 1 odds he wins DPOY.

If you just put like $10 to $20 bucks....you can lose that right?  But if you win, you buy the entire WBNA.

Buy the what?

Edited July 29 by PromoTheRobot

[Dat]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

What?  Bills list Bishop at 207.  I doubt he's 10 pounds heavier than Poyer and Hyde.  

From what i see

 

Cole Bishop 6' 2" 207  4.45 40

Jordan Poyer 6' 191 4.54 40

Micah Hyde 6' 196 4.56 40

Damar Hamlin 6' 200 4.59 40

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, Dat said:

From what i see

 

Cole Bishop 6' 2" 207  4.45 40

Jordan Poyer 6' 191 4.54 40

Micah Hyde 6' 196 4.56 40

Damar Hamlin 6' 200 4.59 40

Wow.  I'm wrong.  In my mind, they played bigger than that.  

 

All the more to the point.  Bills need at least one of Rapp, Hamlin, Bishop, (and possibly Edwards) to step up.  One can carry a weaker one to some extent, as we've seen over a few years when one of Poyer and Hyde was out.   Two stepping up replicates Hyde and Poyer, and that's not improbable.  

[The Wiz]

23 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I hate to break it to everyone but apparently Keon Coleman has been struggling in Bills camp.

🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

 

 

 

Buy the what?

 

 

And he's currently getting cooked.  Even a few bills media members have commented on it.

[BillsVet]

30 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I think it’s interesting we’ve not seen one deep shot yet all offseason in the highlights.

 

31 other NFL teams can see what Buffalo's doing at TC.  If everyone in this thread and identified media can see it, so can opponents.  They'll install the offense and bring it out when they need to.  Or...

 

This offense is about making Josh into someone who takes the easier and more higher percentage throw.  Their receivers are suited to that and those things go together to an extent.  

 

Probably a combination of both.  

[SoCal Deek]

57 minutes ago, Logic said:

I have a feeling that once training camp ends, Micah Hyde will be signing on for a farewell tour with the Bills.

FS: Hyde, Hamlin

SS: Rapp, Edwards
Third safety in three safety sets: Cole Bishop.

The only thing I can see changing this is if Bishop (or Hamlin) really start to come on and turn into playmakers at free safety and the need for Hyde is suddenly lessened.

 

I find it hard to believe that Bishop wouldn’t be anything less than second string at the outset and a starter by October. 

[Logic]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I find it hard to believe that Bishop wouldn’t be anything less than second string at the outset and a starter by October. 

Yeah I would tend to agree, and have up until recently predicted he'd be starting by mid-season.

The only thing giving me pause now are the recent comments by Babich. I don't want to overreact by one quote from a coach during training camp, but...the wording of what he said really caught my attention.