The Training Camp Enthusiasm for the Offense Thread

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

I'll be honest, my faith in the offense took some brutalizing from the end of the season through the draft. Not only has the receiving depth proven insufficient, even if Gabe Davis hadn't given you enough consistent production to be a reliable #2 WR losing him was another hole to plug. Curtis Samuel was nice but I thought the Bills could use one more guy to stretch the field...and then what seemed impossible happened: Diggs was traded. Even if his production had fallen off he was still in the top half of WR 1 and the cupboard was bare. Come draft day I watched Brian Thomas Jr. drop only to be snatched by the Jags and the Bills to trade out of the first round for one of the few prospects I thought the Bills should skip. I hated the Coleman pick in the moment and I felt a pit in my stomach. So the Bills picked up a few bargain bin WRs who cares? The Bills were going into a season with an interim OC made official with less receiving talent and the loss of Morse on the Oline.

 

So I thought at the time.

 

But it's been a long three months and, bit by bit, I saw signs of life. Some of Coleman's analytics were contextualized. Breakdowns of some of Brady's trends showed ways he was already attacking his deficiencies. Claypool and MVS were surprised names to pick up dirt cheap.

 

And now in camp? Brady has leaned into new concepts of motion and condensed formations. Coleman is showing the difference between straight line and game speed and is progressing along a best case scenario ramp up. There are signs of life from the back end of the WR depth to the point it's a real competition. Shakir and Samuel look great. The offensive line doesn't seem to have missed a beat. If anything Josh is looking more comfortable spreading the ball around instead of forcing it and enjoys being able to throw a little higher for big bodied guys. Kincaid looks ready to be an offensive focal point.

 

Is it early? Yes. I don't think anyone will really know until a few weeks in but so far I'm having more faith than I did in 22 or 23.

Edited July 29 by WhitewalkerInPhilly

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Brady and Mahommes won a ton of games with an elite TE and spreading the ball around. Diggs was one of my favorites but there are multiple ways to move the ball if you have an elite QB.

Also let's not forget that this team can be a top 5 rushing team if they commit to it. 

[GunnerBill]

It is encouraging how consistently the O seems to have been performing through week 1 of camp. Obviously it is what it is, camp is camp, but it is encouraging. I do have some optimism around Joe Brady.

[HOUSE]

Camp is for the Boy Scouts, We need real football 

[finn]

Things always look rosy in training camp, but I'm more optimistic than I've been since Diggs' first year. I never liked Gabe Davis as WR2 or Knox as TE1. This year's offense has both depth and balance. The receivers may not be elite, but Shakir, Coleman, and Samuels are all exciting players, and Kincaid may in fact be elite. There's more depth at WR, RB, TE, and across the line than we've seen in years, and Brady seems to know what he's doing.

 

It's ironic that the talking heads are downplaying the Bills chances this year, with some discounting them entirely. At least in terms of the offense, this team might be the best in the Allen era. 

[JP51]

I think I am optimistic to see the continuation of Brady's offense that seemed to really get untracked in the 2nd half of the season. Additionally, how Josh moves into the role of true leader and doesn't need to feed one person to theoretically keep them happy which I felt Dorsey's offense over did a bit. I also wonder if they give JA increased responsibility/control at the line to call his own plays and audible. Not that he doesn't do some of that now... but more of a game plan/Philosophy.

[Gregg]

12 days away (Aug 10th) until the Bills first preseason game. Normally, Allen wouldn't play but with so many new faces in the receiving corps I wonder if the starters get a series or two. Practice is nice but there is no substitute for playing in a game. Also, the HOF game is this Thursday night with the Bears and Texans. Football is back. 

Edited July 29 by Gregg

[CincyBillsFan]

I loved the addition of Samuel and think his impact will be on the order that Beasley's was in 2019.  I also think Coleman will be one of those rookie WR's that has a big impact in their 1st season.  Throw in the expected improvements of Cook & Kincaid, elevating both into the top 10% at their positions; a solid O line an improving Shakir and a reliable Knox and this always had the making of a good offense.  Throw in Allen and it has the potential to be a great offense.

 

[Coach Tuesday]

Looking good in camp is a necessary but not sufficient condition.  Better than looking bad, but not really predictive of anything.

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Looking good in camp is a necessary but not sufficient condition.  Better than looking bad, but not really predictive of anything.

 

Yep. Looking good isn't necessarily a good omen. Looking bad is always a bad omen. That's my view on offense at training camp generally. 

[hondo in seattle]

3 hours ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

I'll be honest, my faith in the offense took some brutalizing from the end of the season through the draft. Not only has the receiving depth proven insufficient, even if Gabe Davis hadn't given you enough consistent production to be a reliable #2 WR losing him was another hole to plug. Curtis Samuel was nice but I thought the Bills could use one more guy to stretch the field...and then what seemed impossible happened: Diggs was traded. Even if his production had fallen off he was still in the top half of WR 1 and the cupboard was bare. Come draft day I watched Brian Thomas Jr. drop only to be snatched by the Jags and the Bills to trade out of the first round for one of the few prospects I thought the Bills should skip. I hated the Coleman pick in the moment and I felt a pit in my stomach. So the Bills picked up a few bargain bin WRs who cares? The Bills were going into a season with an interim OC made official with less receiving talent and the loss of Morse on the Oline.

 

So I thought at the time.

 

But it's been a long three months and, bit by bit, I saw signs of life. Some of Coleman's analytics were contextualized. Breakdowns of some of Brady's trends showed ways he was already attacking his deficiencies. Claypool and MVS were surprised names to pick up dirt cheap.

 

And now in camp? Brady has leaned into new concepts of motion and condensed formations. Coleman is showing the difference between straight line and game speed and is progressing along a best case scenario ramp up. There are signs of life from the back end of the WR depth to the point it's a real competition. Shakir and Samuel look great. The offensive line doesn't seem to have missed a beat. If anything Josh is looking more comfortable spreading the ball around instead of forcing it and enjoys being able to throw a little higher for big bodied guys. Kincaid looks ready to be an offensive focal point.

 

Is it early? Yes. I don't think anyone will really know until a few weeks in but so far I'm having more faith than I did in 22 or 23.

 

I know Brady has said he doesn't make players fit his scheme; he schemes to make use of his players' talents.  And I know that there aren't an infinite number of wideouts available in free agency and the draft and sometimes you have to make do with table scraps.  

 

But I also think Brady gave McD and Beane an idea of what kind of receivers we'd ideally acquire in the offseason - like maybe a speedster (MVS), and a swiss-army type, multipurpose guy (Samuel), and another guy who's big and can make contested catches (Coleman), and so on.  

 

Every time we signed a wideout, I saw it as another puzzle piece.  Maybe not the best puzzle piece we could hope for, but still  one that would allow Brady to put together a coherent picture.  

 

I still have lingering doubts and fears.  But I'm feeling some hope, too.  

 

 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

17 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Looking good in camp is a necessary but not sufficient condition.  Better than looking bad, but not really predictive of anything.

For me it's more gleaning details. It's not that Coleman is constantly doing circus catches (though he is) it's also some of the reports I've heard about working on zone recognition and his footwork. He knew he had great body control, but those were areas of concern for me

[Logic]

The reports out of camp have me feeling bullish about the offense right now.

Not just that they've been performing well, but the specific details I've been hearing.

Tons and tons of pre-snap shifts, motions, both condensed and spread alignments, interesting personnel groupings, bootleg play-action, throws up the seam, both tight ends being productive, Coleman's early success, Samuel's versatility, Shakir's consistency and silky route running. 

On top of all of that, all reports seem to indicate that Josh Allen has, more often than not, looked incredibly sharp. Like...2020 sharp. AND that he's demonstrating more vocal and assertive leadership.

The ONLY caveat I'll offer is this: The defense is young. It's the first camp in seven years where Hyde and Poyer aren't directing the action in the secondary. Those are HUGE losses. They're sort of the equivalent of if the Bills offense lost Josh Allen. That's the type of leadership and experience void we're talking about. So when it comes to the success of the passing game early on in camp so far, I keep trying to remind myself that the defense -- and the secondary in particular -- are still finding their footing.

If this offensive success continues against other teams once joint camp practices and preseason games start, then its wheels up. 

[msw2112]

Something I have learned over the years is to not get too excited over the offseason, one way or the other.  The Bills definitely won the offseason when Rex was the coach, but not so much during the real season.  Despite criticisms on this board, McDermott and Beane are disciplined, smart NFL veterans.  They have a plan and are executing it.  Give it some time.

 

Last season, the big concern was MLB and the LB corps as a whole.  Edmunds left as a free agent (to the delight of many here) with no clear replacement.  McDermott said that the answer might already be on the roster, and this board blew up.  Then the season came and Bernard played great.  Spector and Dodson also played pretty well.  Dorian Williams showed some flashes as a raw rookie backup.  Until virtually all of them were injured in the playoffs, the LB unit was a major strength for the team.  This season, with the loss of Diggs and Davis, the WR room looks like last year's LB situation (and arguably, Safety does too).  Let's see how it plays out before getting too high or too low.  It's only a few days into camp, but so far, so good.

Edited July 29 by msw2112

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

The reports out of camp have me feeling bullish about the offense right now.
...

The ONLY caveat I'll offer is this: The defense is young. It's the first camp in seven years where Hyde and Poyer aren't directing the action in the secondary. Those are HUGE losses. They're sort of the equivalent of if the Bills offense lost Josh Allen. That's the type of leadership and experience void we're talking about. So when it comes to the success of the passing game early on in camp so far, I keep trying to remind myself that the defense -- and the secondary in particular -- are still finding their footing.

If this offensive success continues against other teams once joint camp practices and preseason games start, then its wheels up. 

 

Here are my hopeful, homerish thoughts about Poyer & Hyde.

 

First of all, the 2023 edition of Poyer & Hyde wasn't as good as previous versions.  Replacing what they did together last season shouldn't be too hard.  

 

Secondly, Poyer & Hyde weren't stars when we signed them.  They became one of the best safety tandems in the league when they came to the Bills and worked with McD.  

 

When opposing coaches talked admiringly about Hyde & Poyer, they didn't talk about their cheetah-like speed, super hero strength, or insane athleticism.  Instead, they talked about their smarts, teamwork, communication, and ability to disguise coverage.  It seems like these are all traits that McD can coach into their successors.  

[Nephilim17]

I'm cautiously optimistic. Beasley and Diggs (and Brown, I believe) all had their career-best years with Allen. I'm hoping he can elevate Samuel and the others guys. We'll know in several weeks.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

18 hours ago, Logic said:

The reports out of camp have me feeling bullish about the offense right now.

Not just that they've been performing well, but the specific details I've been hearing.

Tons and tons of pre-snap shifts, motions, both condensed and spread alignments, interesting personnel groupings, bootleg play-action, throws up the seam, both tight ends being productive, Coleman's early success, Samuel's versatility, Shakir's consistency and silky route running. 

On top of all of that, all reports seem to indicate that Josh Allen has, more often than not, looked incredibly sharp. Like...2020 sharp. AND that he's demonstrating more vocal and assertive leadership.

The ONLY caveat I'll offer is this: The defense is young. It's the first camp in seven years where Hyde and Poyer aren't directing the action in the secondary. Those are HUGE losses. They're sort of the equivalent of if the Bills offense lost Josh Allen. That's the type of leadership and experience void we're talking about. So when it comes to the success of the passing game early on in camp so far, I keep trying to remind myself that the defense -- and the secondary in particular -- are still finding their footing.

If this offensive success continues against other teams once joint camp practices and preseason games start, then its wheels up. 

That's where I am.

 

It's not that we are seeing highlight reels of plays. Every team is doing those for hype. But, as you say, it's that the plays are happening while installing or expanding concepts that should pay dividends and players being ready or on schedule gives me hope that the offense will, at minimum, continue off roughly where it was at the end of 2023.

 

Defense? Yeah...

 

I like our young depth for the most part. Bernard was a sensation and Dorian Williams looked decent in limited snaps. Bishop is at least in rotation at safety and Carter is holding his own. Elam seems to be benefitting from a different position coach and is looking closer to what we hoped he could be.

 

But there's going to be a jump. Considering McDermott managed to shoestring a half decent unit out of a MASH ward I think they can get by for a time but the young guys are going to get their lumps.

[Mr. WEO]

Another off season Lombardy??!!

[Gregg]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Another off season Lombardy??!!

 

The Jets win that. They are the two-time defending off-season champions of the world.

[Big Turk]

We are going to see Allen transform into Neo from the Matrix in front of our eyes when he finally believed he was "The One".