The Bills "Don't have positions" - Joe Brady

[stevewin]

So if you listen to the PC and the whole comment around what he said - what he meant was that WRs will have no single assigned/designated position to learn for a play, - ie. they should all be ready to play any of the WR positions and understand what to do from any spot in a formation - not that there are literallly "no positions"

 

Quote

Yeah we don't have positions

 

The way that we taught the offense, we just taught everything conceptually,  these are three man concepts. These are two man concepts.  These are full field progressions.  And so if I ask the guy hey, what do you have on this play? They should be asking me, well what's the formation?  And what position am I playing on that play?  Not like, I'm the X, so I have this.  And so it forces the guys to to understand, hey on any given moment, you can be on any of these spots - and you've got to know it.  And formationally, we can change it, move it around.  and so that was a big thing, a big point of emphasis.  I don't want the guys memorizing a play and what they have that specific route.  They've got to know it all.

 

[nedboy7]

49 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Allen carried them again. 

Who carries the Chiefs. We have a top 2 QB. That’s how it is.  Enjoy it. 

[Mikey152]

Say what you will about this year’s receiving core, but one thing is for sure…they are ALOT different physically from previous groups Josh has had at his disposal.

 

Looking back, our receiver group was almost comically stereotypical…Big X that only runs straight, do everything z that is your #1, shifty and reliable but smallish y, and a gadget guy. Don’t forget the special teamer who gets snaps and the emergency project guy too.

 

There is a reason that is the classic setup…the physical skills compliment the role well in a traditional offense. The problem is, traditional offenses have become incredibly predictable in the modern NFL. You might be able to complete passes and even move the football if the guys are talented enough, but you’re gonna struggle with separation, YAC and scoring in the red zone. Sound familiar?

 

This season, they turned over practically the whole room. Out of the projected top 6-7, only one guy is < 6’ and even he is close to 200 lbs. They’re all fast, or at the very least explosive and athletic. And none of them have been the guy before (which could be a problem, granted). In some ways, it feels more like the way a college team builds their roster, in that they just try and get the best athletes they can and worry about how to use them later. All of this makes for a group that is almost the antithesis of what we have had before, especially when you factor in the other skill spots. As a result, we are way less predictable this season.

 

i get why that is scary, because that also means we as fans don’t know what to expect either, and it feels like everyone is unproven, including the OC. But there is one guy that is proven:  Josh Allen. I have 100% faith that he will run the crap out of this offense and have his best season ever. 

 

 

Edited July 26 by Mikey152

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Say what you will about this year’s receiving core, but one thing is for sure…they are ALOT different physically from previous groups Josh has had at his disposal.

 

Looking back, our receiver group was almost comically stereotypical…Big X that only runs straight, do everything z that is your #1, shifty and reliable but smallish y, and a gadget guy. Don’t forget the special teamer who gets snaps and the emergency project guy too.

 

There is a reason that is the classic setup…the physical skills compliment the role well in a traditional offense. The problem is, traditional offenses have become incredibly predictable in the modern NFL. You might be able to complete passes and even move the football if the guys are talented enough, but you’re gonna struggle with separation, YAC and scoring in the red zone. Sound familiar?

 

This season, they turned over practically the whole room. Out of the projected top 6-7, only one guy is < 6’ and even he is close to 200 lbs. They’re all fast, or at the very least explosive and athletic. And none of them have been the guy before (which could be a problem, granted). All of this makes for a group that is almost the antithesis of what we have had before, especially when you factor in the other skill spots: We are way less predictable this season.

 

i get why that is scary, because that also means we as fans don’t know what to expect either, and it feels like everyone is unproven, including the OC. But there is one guy that is proven:  Josh Allen. I have 100% faith that he will run the crap out of this offense and have his best season ever. 

 

 

 

I think the "conventional" combination is a bit of a holdover from the Daboll era. He liked that balance. Brady is gonna run some more spread and we saw some of that last year. 

 

But I am not sure I buy that that this group will separate better. I think the opposite.

[Mikey152]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think the "conventional" combination is a bit of a holdover from the Daboll era. He liked that balance. Brady is gonna run some more spread and we saw some of that last year. 

 

But I am not sure I buy that that this group will separate better. I think the opposite.

We don't talk about it a lot, but before Joe Brady was at LSU he cut his teeth with Sean Payton in NO. I think we are seeing that play out.

 

As for the separation...we've gone round and round so I won't belabor the point. But the whole thing is it isn't just the players that are changing. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Mikey152 said:

We don't talk about it a lot, but before Joe Brady was at LSU he cut his teeth with Sean Payton in NO. I think we are seeing that play out.

 

As for the separation...we've gone round and round so I won't belabor the point. But the whole thing is it isn't just the players that are changing. 

 

He did. And that Sean Payton version of the E-P was more of a spread scheme that has always classically valued size inside and then speed outside. I wouldn't be shocked as a result if Coleman (despite Beane's intention) ends up playing a fair amount of big slot. 

[Mikey152]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

He did. And that Sean Payton version of the E-P was more of a spread scheme that has always classically valued size inside and then speed outside. I wouldn't be shocked as a result if Coleman (despite Beane's intention) ends up playing a fair amount of big slot. 

Perhaps that is what Brady means when he says position-less...it also uses a lot of condensed and bunch formations, empty backfields, etc. In those scenarios, I know that there is technically a slot, but who it is is kind of a moot point.

[Meatloaf63]

20 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Talk about adopting a narrative.   I don't think the data support the idea that Josh hasn't succeeded in the short to medium range.  Last season he was in the top 10 in ALL categories of throws - 10 yards, 20, 30, 40, 50.  Tua was the deep bomber in the league last season, not Josh.  

 

But more importantly, this issue about Diggs is not something new.  I worried about Diggs all through 22 and 23.  It was easy to see through body language, sideline behavior and other things that he was not consistently a team guy.  He was a great team guy some of the time, but it was clear that he was always about Diggs.  It was obvious, for example, that the Bills went out of their way to get Diggs a completion early - if he didn't catch a ball in the first quarter, his attitude changed.   It's a problem when your QB has to worry about keeping his best player happy.  The QB's job is to run the offense, and the receiver's job is to run his routes and catch the ball.  When the receiver's focus get selfish, and when the QB is worried about keeping the guy happy, that hurts the offense.   We saw it last season, but it had been coming before that. 

 

In 2023, I didn't think of him as the go-to guy that he was earlier in his career in Buffalo.  

 

So, at least for me, the "Diggs is a problem" narrative wasn't new.  

Exactly, anyone saying everything was perfect with Diggs this time last years was is delusional. Just a great post👍

[amprov56]

21 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Talk about adopting a narrative.   I don't think the data support the idea that Josh hasn't succeeded in the short to medium range.  Last season he was in the top 10 in ALL categories of throws - 10 yards, 20, 30, 40, 50.  Tua was the deep bomber in the league last season, not Josh.  

 

But more importantly, this issue about Diggs is not something new.  I worried about Diggs all through 22 and 23.  It was easy to see through body language, sideline behavior and other things that he was not consistently a team guy.  He was a great team guy some of the time, but it was clear that he was always about Diggs.  It was obvious, for example, that the Bills went out of their way to get Diggs a completion early - if he didn't catch a ball in the first quarter, his attitude changed.   It's a problem when your QB has to worry about keeping his best player happy.  The QB's job is to run the offense, and the receiver's job is to run his routes and catch the ball.  When the receiver's focus get selfish, and when the QB is worried about keeping the guy happy, that hurts the offense.   We saw it last season, but it had been coming before that. 

 

In 2023, I didn't think of him as the go-to guy that he was earlier in his career in Buffalo.  

 

So, at least for me, the "Diggs is a problem" narrative wasn't new.  

Started before the Bills in Minnesota, why they unloaded him!

19 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

To start, I'd love to see the data on that and what it means as put out.  I'm not buying it at all from a decision-making aspect. 

 

Again, the issue isn't the throw itself, which you seem to be highlighting.  It's about the decision as to whether or not, or where to throw to.  

 

What's the source of that?   I'd like to look it over.  
 

 

 

It's hardly a stretch to realize that that's likely why he got the job. 

 

 

 

Yeah, who knows, but at this point if it doesn't work, McD may be out of lives.  ... and scapegoats.  I can see him blaming the defensive woes if they exist, on Babich, but Babich was his choice, ... again.  

 

 

Come on, everything was plain to see, again - why did the Vikings unload this future HOFer!

[hondo in seattle]

On 7/25/2024 at 10:50 AM, hondo in seattle said:

 

I think it's the lettering - not the numbering - and the concerns the Bills don't have a qualified X.

 

4 hours ago, stevewin said:

So if you listen to the PC and the whole comment around what he said - what he meant was that WRs will have no single assigned/designated position to learn for a play, - ie. they should all be ready to play any of the WR positions and understand what to do from any spot in a formation - not that there are literallly "no positions"

 

 

 

 

Maybe stevewin and I are wrong and Josh will line up at center sometimes and Dion at wideout.  If that happens, I'm come here for my mea culpa.  

 

But I'm pretty sure Brady just meant we don't have a designated X, Y, or Z.  In his mind, wideouts are wideouts.  

[Mat68]

3 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

We don't talk about it a lot, but before Joe Brady was at LSU he cut his teeth with Sean Payton in NO. I think we are seeing that play out.

 

As for the separation...we've gone round and round so I won't belabor the point. But the whole thing is it isn't just the players that are changing. 

100%.  Coleman and Kincaid like Graham and Thomas.  Personal groupings and formations will stress the sub packages of defenses.  Creating the mis matches needed for a high octane offense.  Defensive mistakes and strategic advantages.  The thing that Payton said about coaching Brees.  It was his and his staffs job Monday through Saturday to limit how many times Brees had to be great.  Out of 30 or passes he didnt want to asked Brees to drop back and just be great 5 time a game.  I felt under Dorsey and even Daboll Allen had to do it every play.  Get him easy competitions scheme open guys.   

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, amprov56 said:

Started before the Bills in Minnesota, why they unloaded him!

Come on, everything was plain to see, again - why did the Vikings unload this future HOFer!

I agree.  I wrote something a month ago about him.  When they got him, Bills loved his energy and commitment.   They didn't understand that what happened in Minnesota is chronic with Diggs.   

 

He is a true dog.  Teammates love him for his fight.  Problem is that sooner or later, he turns that fight to his own team.   Houston should plan on two good years from him, but then they'd be wise to move on. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

54 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree.  I wrote something a month ago about him.  When they got him, Bills loved his energy and commitment.   They didn't understand that what happened in Minnesota is chronic with Diggs.   

 

He is a true dog.  Teammates love him for his fight.  Problem is that sooner or later, he turns that fight to his own team.   Houston should plan on two good years from him, but then they'd be wise to move on. 

It also has to do with the maturation of Allen as a team leader, especially this year with so many younger players.

 

Diggs was here at the right time, as Josh was evolving into his role as the team leader, initially he was best buds with Diggs, more or less on the same level.  As Allen matured in his role, he couldnt any longer be his best buddy, he had grown out of "that role".  

 

I will bet Diggs is in Houston one year.  The wr diva will emerge, not sure he will be able to control his ego and be "under" a 2nd yr Q!B and HC.  He signed a one year contract which is all I think he stays in Houston.

Edited July 26 by RoyBatty is alive

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He did. And that Sean Payton version of the E-P was more of a spread scheme that has always classically valued size inside and then speed outside. I wouldn't be shocked as a result if Coleman (despite Beane's intention) ends up playing a fair amount of big slot. 

You're technical expertise is way beyond me, but I think you're assuming that Brady has a style, and that style is what he learned in NO.  My understanding is that at LSU, with those receivers, the style was different.  

 

I'd bet if you asked him, he'd say what McDermott has told him:  Play EVERY style.  Run, pass, balanced, inside, outside, explosive, west coast, everything.   

 

It's true that most people revert to things they're comfortable with, and that may be what Brady will do, but I don't think that's what McDermott wants.  

Just now, RoyBatty is alive said:

It also has to do with the maturation of Allen as a team leader, especially this year with so many younger players.

 

Diggs was here at the right time, as Josh was evolving into his role as the team leader, initially he was best buds with Diggs, more or less on the same level.  As Allen matured in his role, he couldnt any longer be his best buddy, he had grown out of "that roll".  

Interesting.  And as you think about, Allen's maturation and the fact that the QB has to be the leader also meant that Diggs had to reduce his leadership role.  I doubt he liked doing that, and that may be why saw him increasingly unhappy.   

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Shaw66 said:

You're technical expertise is way beyond me, but I think you're assuming that Brady has a style, and that style is what he learned in NO.  My understanding is that at LSU, with those receivers, the style was different.  

 

I'd bet if you asked him, he'd say what McDermott has told him:  Play EVERY style.  Run, pass, balanced, inside, outside, explosive, west coast, everything.   

 

It's true that most people revert to things they're comfortable with, and that may be what Brady will do, but I don't think that's what McDermott wants.  

 

I'm not assuming he still runs everything he learned in New Orleans. I am sure he has developed as he has gone. But very few coaches completely abandon the stuff that helps them get their break. He did move Jefferson in to play big slot at LSU as well (was an inspired move). Wouldn't surprise me if they have essentially 4 wide formations where Coleman and Kincaid are in the slot either side with say a Samuel and a MVS outside in the playbook. I am not saying that us all they will run. But it wouldn't surprise me if Keon is trending around a third of his snaps inside by the end of the year. I also happen to think it is where his skillset is best suited.

[RoyBatty is alive]

10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You're technical expertise is way beyond me, but I think you're assuming that Brady has a style, and that style is what he learned in NO.  My understanding is that at LSU, with those receivers, the style was different.  

 

I'd bet if you asked him, he'd say what McDermott has told him:  Play EVERY style.  Run, pass, balanced, inside, outside, explosive, west coast, everything.   

 

It's true that most people revert to things they're comfortable with, and that may be what Brady will do, but I don't think that's what McDermott wants.  

Interesting.  And as you think about, Allen's maturation and the fact that the QB has to be the leader also meant that Diggs had to reduce his leadership role.  I doubt he liked doing that, and that may be why saw him increasingly unhappy.   

Precisely, it was almost inevitable as Allen matured.

 

I dont think it is simple minded coachspeak about Allen and his more dynamic leadership role thus far in TC.

Edited July 26 by RoyBatty is alive

[SirAndrew]

This is basically coach speak for not having a number one receiver. It might work out just fine at that position, but I don’t think a coach with a clear number one says that. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

7 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

This is basically coach speak for not having a number one receiver. It might work out just fine at that position, but I don’t think a coach with a clear number one says that. 

 

 

I disagree.

 

Listen to the Taron Johnson interview how he loves the challenge of never knowing what type or player/who he will be defending, if Brady can pull it off, it will make of Offense very hard to cover while improving our defense in practice.  Similar to what Belichek was also striving for on Defense, make as many players interchangeable as possible.

 

Will Brady be able to pull it off?  It will be difficult, could be a tremendous success or massive failure.  One of the reasons why, i believe, that Buillls are always targeting smart players/team captains, people willing to put in the work.

[Shaw66]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'm not assuming he still runs everything he learned in New Orleans. I am sure he has developed as he has gone. But very few coaches completely abandon the stuff that helps them get their break. He did move Jefferson in to play big slot at LSU as well (was an inspired move). Wouldn't surprise me if they have essentially 4 wide formations where Coleman and Kincaid are in the slot either side with say a Samuel and a MVS outside in the playbook. I am not saying that us all they will run. But it wouldn't surprise me if Keon is trending around a third of his snaps inside by the end of the year. I also happen to think it is where his skillset is best suited.

Thanks.  Interesting stuff.  

 

I agree about Coleman's skill set.  Having him roaming all over the field from the slot could make him a nightmare for defenses to deal with. 

 

Frankly, last season I had hoped we'd see more of that from Kincaid, but his role seemed more limited.  If the Bills can get more from him this season, then I like your vision of those two guys running out of the slot.   Fact is, those two lined up together almost anywhere along the line is a problem for defenses.  

[Mikey152]

48 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You're technical expertise is way beyond me, but I think you're assuming that Brady has a style, and that style is what he learned in NO.  My understanding is that at LSU, with those receivers, the style was different.  

 

I'd bet if you asked him, he'd say what McDermott has told him:  Play EVERY style.  Run, pass, balanced, inside, outside, explosive, west coast, everything.   

 

It's true that most people revert to things they're comfortable with, and that may be what Brady will do, but I don't think that's what McDermott wants.  

Interesting.  And as you think about, Allen's maturation and the fact that the QB has to be the leader also meant that Diggs had to reduce his leadership role.  I doubt he liked doing that, and that may be why saw him increasingly unhappy.   

I think there is a difference between being a balanced/complimentary offense and a coaches philosophy on how you do that.

 

Using NO as an example (that's where he worked with Payton...it was his first job and not that long ago), it was this combination of spread pass with power run. Lots of bunch/condensed sets, motion, two TE, empty backfield. They used things like personnel groups, formation, motion and play sequence to attack defenses. 

 

In a nutshell, you can either change the route and keep the target to exploit a coverage, or you can keep the route and change the target. One requires a strong QB/WR connection, but spreads out the responsibility. The other places a lot more on the QBs plate, but spreads out the touches.

 

I think Daboll installed the former to help develop Josh, KD kept it...Brady is a bigger believer in the 2nd one (which was also the NO philosophy). Part of the reason our offense felt better with Brady even if it didn't actually do better is because it was more decisive. However, we had really only installed basic formations and packages, so his menu was pretty limited. If you're attacking with formation and sequence, you needs lots of formation and plays.

 

 

Edited July 26 by Mikey152