The Bills "Don't have positions" - Joe Brady

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Rather than arguing over the merits of the WRs you listed versus ours, I'll say I'm mainly skeptical because I'm not convinced that Joe Brady is anywhere close to Sean McVay. So like I said at the end of my post I would love for Brady to prove me wrong. I feel pretty confident that I know how each of our skill players will perform this year, for better or worse. I'm less confident that I know how Brady will perform, again for better or worse. I won't be totally shocked if he turns out to be a top 8ish offensive mind. I need to see it first though.

 

I also don't want to be the guy that drags arguments from other threads into this one, so I'll leave it at that.

 

For what it's worth I can see the vision. Almost all of our primary skill players on offense can be moved all around the formation. I can envision an offensive mastermind turning that into something very difficult to defend, even in the absence of one player that can take over games. Just need to see it.

 

 

I have more confidence in Brady than the talent. That said I sort of agree with you in that I think the varience is higher with Brady than with the talent. They are, other than Coleman and to an extent Shakir, total known quantities. But I think if the Bills O is really good it will more than likely because Brady has been really good.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Talk about adopting a narrative.   I don't think the data support the idea that Josh hasn't succeeded in the short to medium range.  Last season he was in the top 10 in ALL categories of throws - 10 yards, 20, 30, 40, 50.  Tua was the deep bomber in the league last season, not Josh.  

 

But more importantly, this issue about Diggs is not something new.  I worried about Diggs all through 22 and 23.  It was easy to see through body language, sideline behavior and other things that he was not consistently a team guy.  He was a great team guy some of the time, but it was clear that he was always about Diggs.  It was obvious, for example, that the Bills went out of their way to get Diggs a completion early - if he didn't catch a ball in the first quarter, his attitude changed.   It's a problem when your QB has to worry about keeping his best player happy.  The QB's job is to run the offense, and the receiver's job is to run his routes and catch the ball.  When the receiver's focus get selfish, and when the QB is worried about keeping the guy happy, that hurts the offense.   We saw it last season, but it had been coming before that. 

 

In 2023, I didn't think of him as the go-to guy that he was earlier in his career in Buffalo.  

 

So, at least for me, the "Diggs is a problem" narrative wasn't new.  

 

To start, I'd love to see the data on that and what it means as put out.  I'm not buying it at all from a decision-making aspect. 

 

Again, the issue isn't the throw itself, which you seem to be highlighting.  It's about the decision as to whether or not, or where to throw to.  

 

What's the source of that?   I'd like to look it over.  
 

 

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

Yeah.  And, this is the first year that McD has an OC and the personnel to run his complementary version of football to the max.     

 

Because Brady is aligned with McD in a way Daboll and Dorsey were not.  He'll design an offense that fits within the HC's concept.    

 

It's hardly a stretch to realize that that's likely why he got the job. 

 

 

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

And if it doesn't work, the long knives will come out for Allen.  I hope it doesn't reach that, but this isn't so much a Josh issue as it is the wrong strategy/vision for how to win in the modern NFL with a franchise QB.    

 

Yeah, who knows, but at this point if it doesn't work, McD may be out of lives.  ... and scapegoats.  I can see him blaming the defensive woes if they exist, on Babich, but Babich was his choice, ... again.  

 

 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Well I was on here last offseason saying things were not hunky dory and relationships were strained and between Josh and Stef at that point non-existent. I don't really care what the narrative was or wasn't. I am telling you what I was told as a fact by someone in a position to know. And I was not the only one. Other reputable long term posters on this site had versions of the same story about the relationship. 

 

I don't know for certain that the new offense wasn't a part, that is true. But I do know for certain that the issues between Diggs and individuals in the organisation date back to the middle of 2022. That isn't opinion. That is fact. It just appears to me based on what I know to be true that the issues that led to his departure are related to that and not Joe Brady or his offense. 

 

This isn't about what you or I thought.  

 

As to people in a position to know, if they're in a position to know, strongs odds are that they're sympathetic to the org & coach, otherwise they more than likely wouldn't be in a position to know.   

 

We'll know for certain whether or not it's true if Diggs hasn't really lost a step.  You've heard me say it before, I'll say it again, anyone truly believing that Diggs "lost a step" within a matter of weeks is a gullible fool.  It's funny, because in Houston Case Keenum not long ago was saying how Diggs was even faster than he remembered him in Minnesota.  Other players on Houston validated that and remarked that Diggs had not lost a step.  So it will be interesting.  

 

It's a bit disingenuous for anyone to dismiss anything anyone says about other NFL players except for those on our team.  Wouldn't you say.  

 

As to Diggs, I won't disagree, I decried that it was nonsense that there was nothing to the "all's well" statements by McD, Allen, etc.  Who cares, that doesn't matter what you or I thought, but most people here agreed, yet they were lied to, deceived, and misled.  But for some odd reason everything being told us henceforth is true.  Come on now.  

 

The question is what really was the issue with Diggs.  Given his role in Brady's offense, coupled with the built-for-imbeciles narrative that he "lost a step" entirely out of the blue, it's quite fair to say that there's a whole lot more than meets the eye/team-statements here, whether from McD & Co. directly, or "in the know" people obviously sympathetic to the same.  

 

It is quite possible that Diggs sees what many of us see, a head coach that continually attempts to cram a square peg into a round hole.  This season appears to be the capstone season for trying to get it in there.  

 

One thing's for sure, a whole lot of things will become known this season.  A whole lot of 'em.  The places to hide are quickly running out.  

 

As to the offense, I can envision us being the highest scoring offense in the league, but not with an OC who's under McD's complimentary football thumb, and not under Brady, whose average offenses in his two seasons as OC elsewhere were ranked 26th in scoring and 24th in yardage, bottom quartile, and who was fired towards the end of his second season.  

 

I can see it being led by someone competent and that understands that the NFL's rules these days favor passing like never before, and knows how to capitalize on that.  But again, you'll never see that here under McD as the head coach, it simply won't happen.  

 

 

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

This isn't about what you or I thought.  

 

As to people in a position to know, if they're in a position to know, strongs odds are that they're sympathetic to the org & coach, otherwise they more than likely wouldn't be in a position to know.   

 

We'll know for certain whether or not it's true if Diggs hasn't really lost a step.  You've heard me say it before, I'll say it again, anyone truly believing that Diggs "lost a step" within a matter of weeks is a gullible fool.  It's funny, because in Houston Case Keenum not long ago was saying how Diggs was even faster than he remembered him in Minnesota.  Other players on Houston validated that and remarked that Diggs had not lost a step.  So it will be interesting.  

 

It's a bit disingenuous for anyone to dismiss anything anyone says about other NFL players except for those on our team.  Wouldn't you say.  

 

As to Diggs, I won't disagree, I decried that it was nonsense that there was nothing to the "all's well" statements by McD, Allen, etc.  Who cares, that doesn't matter what you or I thought, but most people here agreed, yet they were lied to, deceived, and misled.  But for some odd reason everything being told us henceforth is true.  Come on now.  

 

The question is what really was the issue with Diggs.  Given his role in Brady's offense, coupled with the built-for-imbeciles narrative that he "lost a step" entirely out of the blue, it's quite fair to say that there's a whole lot more than meets the eye/team-statements here, whether from McD & Co. directly, or "in the know" people obviously sympathetic to the same.  

 

It is quite possible that Diggs sees what many of us see, a head coach that continually attempts to cram a square peg into a round hole.  This season appears to be the capstone season for trying to get it in there.  

 

One thing's for sure, a whole lot of things will become known this season.  A whole lot of 'em.  The places to hide are quickly running out.  

 

As to the offense, I can envision us being the highest scoring offense in the league, but not with an OC who's under McD's complimentary football thumb, and not under Brady, whose average offenses in his two seasons as OC elsewhere were ranked 26th in scoring and 24th in yardage, bottom quartile, and who was fired towards the end of his second season.  

 

I can see it being led by someone competent and that understands that the NFL's rules these days favor passing like never before, and knows how to capitalize on that.  But again, you'll never see that here under McD as the head coach, it simply won't happen.  

 

I trust my source 100%. The issues with Diggs way pre-date Brady. If he played a part it is a small part. 

 

As for the rest you are arguing things I have never said or believed.

Edited July 25 by GunnerBill

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Rather than arguing over the merits of the WRs you listed versus ours, I'll say I'm mainly skeptical because I'm not convinced that Joe Brady is anywhere close to Sean McVay. So like I said at the end of my post I would love for Brady to prove me wrong. I feel pretty confident that I know how each of our skill players will perform this year, for better or worse. I'm less confident that I know how Brady will perform, again for better or worse. I won't be totally shocked if he turns out to be a top 8ish offensive mind. I need to see it first though.

 

I also don't want to be the guy that drags arguments from other threads into this one, so I'll leave it at that.

 

For what it's worth I can see the vision. Almost all of our primary skill players on offense can be moved all around the formation. I can envision an offensive mastermind turning that into something very difficult to defend, even in the absence of one player that can take over games. Just need to see it.

 

Thanks.  Good points.  And I agree - there is no great evidence that Brady has the magic.  

 

So, you clarified what you said earlier.  It isn't the concept that you find troubling; it is the people executing the concept.  I get that.  

[oldmanfan]

3 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Yeah, that's the narrative, but the official narratives have proven to have not been entirely truthful often at best, lies at worst.  

 

If you merge the two, that was very likely the reason why Diggs wanted out.  

 

It's way premature for anyone to insist that this "new approach," and a style that Allen has yet to play regularly much less master to this date, will be an improvement.  

 

It sounds catchy, cook, even mildly innovative, but we've heard many things this time of year that never panned out.  

 

At best for the time being, we'll see how it shakes out.  

 

Pinning the entirety of the situation on a superficial narrative however doesn't line up with reality.  I know you'll disagree, obviously, since implicitly you already have, but nonetheless.  

 

 

Show me the lies.  With actual proof.

[Shaw66]

48 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

 

What's the source of that?   I'd like to look it over.  
 

 

 

You said this:

 

Quote

He hasn't even typically much less consistently taken advantage of the short-medium higher percentage receivers that have been wide open in the past, opting instead to go deep, for better or for worse. 

I challenged it.  Rather than tell us how you know this, you ask me for my data. 

 

I don't think you're correct about Josh going deep all the time, so show us it is true.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Paraphrasing John Madden, when you have 5 starting WRs you have no starting WRs

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I trust my source 100%. The issues with Diggs way pre-date Brady. If he played a part it is a small part. 

 

As for the rest you are arguing things I have never said or believed.

I believe you. It's obvious it dated back to the Bengals loss at least.  Relationship with Allen fell apart and McDermott made it worse with his I'm concerned comments.  

Im of course biased because I think McDermott is a fraud and I think it was terrible decision to trade Diggs. 

[MarlinTheMagician]

32 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Paraphrasing John Madden, when you have 5 starting WRs you have no starting WRs

Madden was a pretty good coach 50 years ago.  Made a fortune out of making noises in the broadcast booth -- "he comes around the end and 'wham'!  That takes charisma, but not genius.  Game has changed tremendously in 50 years.  The athletes are very different.  If this was ever true, I don't believe it has any truth today.  It is a match-up game now.  You need lots of different athletic types to stress the defense much more than you need one Fred Biletnikoff, I believe.

 

I think we have seen Allen's final right of passage.  Without a true #1 they will rely on him to distribute the ball effectively and elevate his receiver group.  Diggs came here a #1 receiver.  I think there is a very good chance Shakir, Kincaid, Samuel or Coleman will leave here -- someday -- as a validated #1 in the eyes of the league and its followers.  If so, that will be in significant part due to Josh's greatness (which is considerable!)  

 

Let's go - I got a feelin' about this particular team.  Let 'em hunt!  I think this is as good a team as we have ever fielded.  We will see how this post ages, I know.  As of today I am feeling pretty confident.

Edited July 25 by MarlinTheMagician

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

You said this:

 

I challenged it.  Rather than tell us how you know this, you ask me for my data. 

 

I don't think you're correct about Josh going deep all the time, so show us it is true.  

 

Hold on there chief!  

 

To start, to my knowledge I never said that bolded part, that's your taking quite the liberties in reformulating what I did say.  I make it a point to try to avoid extremes like that.  

 

Otherwise, you said this ... 

 

Last season he was in the top 10 in ALL categories of throws - 10 yards, 20, 30, 40, 50.

 

... to which I asked you where you got your data from.  

 

So where did you get it from?   You said it, not me.  I can't imagine that you just made it up.  So what's the source?  

 

Again, I'd like to take a look at it.  Maybe I'll learn something.  

 

After that, I've posted quite a few clips of Allen doing just what I said.  I've probably posted them a few dozen times over the past 18 months or so.  In fact, I've mentioned that making a montage of them would be a snap.  I could probably get 10 minutes worth easily if I can get the All-22 videos, which I've been unable to subscribe to, which I've also explained here.  But simply watching any game it's easy to come up with a bunch of 'em.  

 

 

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

So basically Allen will be putting the whole team on his back once again. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloBillsGospel2014 said:

So basically Allen will be putting the whole team on his back once again. 

False narrative. 

[4merper4mer]

10 hours ago, Chaos said:

 

No positions lol.  Spoken with a perfect 50-50 mixture of arrogance and ignorance.  

[Capco]

8 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree, and that's what I've been saying about McDermott's approach in general.  I mean, is Bernard really a middle linebacker or just a glorified safety?  I think McDermott almost would be willing to play with seven safeties instead of corners, linebackers and safeties. 

 

Same thing with the offensive line, except the size of the players is different.  He wants mobile guys who can pass block and power block.  McDermott might play with five Spencer Browns, if he could find them.  

 

Clearly, it's being tried with the wideouts (and running backs) (and tight ends).  It's not literally true, but it's feeling like everyone is playing everywhere.  

 

In McDermott's perfect world, I think he has 11 well-trained athletes on the field playing almost interchangeably.  

 

And I still worry that the problem with this approach is that it works great until they play a Chris Jones or a Tyreek Hill or another stud who is just really, really good, and none of McDermott's jackknives can handle the guy. 

With regards to the concept of interchangeability, that's always what I thought made the base 3-4 two-gap defense special.  Ideally, each LB in those defenses had to be able to pass rush an NFL offensive lineman on any given play.  In a standard 4-man pass rush, that means the offensive line never truly knows where the fourth rusher is coming from.  It also gives you the inherent flexibility to rush the passer with only 3 (beefy) linemen while dropping 8 other players into pass coverage. 

Granted, the modern NFL rarely employs base defenses as the norm anymore, but I still think this example illustrates your same point from a defensive perspective.

On the offensive side, I remember hearing about 4 TE packages being the next gen thing during the Gronk/Hernandez days.  Although we never got to that point, I believe it's still analogous to your "seven safeties" reference.  

If every eligible receiver is an equal threat in the running game and the passing game, that creates serious challenges for opposing defenses.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

3 hours ago, MarlinTheMagician said:

Madden was a pretty good coach 50 years ago.  Made a fortune out of making noises in the broadcast booth -- "he comes around the end and 'wham'!  That takes charisma, but not genius.  Game has changed tremendously in 50 years.  The athletes are very different.  If this was ever true, I don't believe it has any truth today.  It is a match-up game now.  You need lots of different athletic types to stress the defense much more than you need one Fred Biletnikoff, I believe.

 

I think we have seen Allen's final right of passage.  Without a true #1 they will rely on him to distribute the ball effectively and elevate his receiver group.  Diggs came here a #1 receiver.  I think there is a very good chance Shakir, Kincaid, Samuel or Coleman will leave here -- someday -- as a validated #1 in the eyes of the league and its followers.  If so, that will be in significant part due to Josh's greatness (which is considerable!)  

 

Let's go - I got a feelin' about this particular team.  Let 'em hunt!  I think this is as good a team as we have ever fielded.  We will see how this post ages, I know.  As of today I am feeling pretty confident.

Lol...I was paraphrasing. Madden said it about having two QBs, meaning you don't have a star.

Bills don't have a star WR but you are correct, if designed and executed well the offense can be very difficult to defend. 

You chose an interesting word though. Match-up. At some point the players still need to win one on one match ups. Diggs did that with aplomb. There are multiple guys if positioned well that should be able to win matchups. Shakir should beat most average slot corners. Kincaid and Knox can beat even the best linebackers and probably most safeties. Cook can beat any coverage.  Samuel is a work in progress. 

What I am a little worried about is who is the guy that makes a play when Josh scrambles. That was commonly Diggs and Davis. Josh found them often. Will be interesting to see who he finds when the play breaks down. 

[nedboy7]

The narrative is the Bills dont have a star.  Currently.  The reality will reveal itself in a few months and most likely not be the case. 

[hondo in seattle]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Well I was on here last offseason saying things were not hunky dory and relationships were strained and between Josh and Stef at that point non-existent. I don't really care what the narrative was or wasn't. I am telling you what I was told as a fact by someone in a position to know. And I was not the only one. Other reputable long term posters on this site had versions of the same story about the relationship. 

 

I don't know for certain that the new offense wasn't a part, that is true. But I do know for certain that the issues between Diggs and individuals in the organisation date back to the middle of 2022. That isn't opinion. That is fact. It just appears to me based on what I know to be true that the issues that led to his departure are related to that and not Joe Brady or his offense. 

 

In April of 2023, I started a topic: "The Allen-Diggs Relationship in Decline."  I got battered for it:

 

9 posters agreed with this:  "I think you're trying to create drama that isn't there."

 

7 agreed with "Much ado about nothing."  

 

3 agreed with a poster who called it a "garbage thread."  

And so on...

 

To his credit, Gunner added this: "I have been telling you all offseason the relationship is strained and it has been put to me as 'the honeymoon is over.'"

Later in the thread GB, rather presciently, added this:  "I told folks a year ago it was a Josh - Stef issue. It always has been. That relationship fractured. And when that happens the right answer is always your franchise QB."

 

 

 

Edited July 26 by hondo in seattle

[Chaos]

16 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

think if the Bills O is really good it will more than likely because

Allen carried them again. 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Allen carried them again. 

 

Josh being Josh is baked into the calculation. But he will have an even harder job this year based on talent. If he can do it again and have them as a top 5 offense then Brady will have played a significant part in that IMO.