The Bills "Don't have positions" - Joe Brady

[PBF81]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The reason he was traded was he wanted out, didn't want to be here and his relationship with Josh had been bad to non-existent at times from the middle of 2022. Having a checked out player and that constant tension between your QB and top WR isn't healthy.

 

Yeah, that's the narrative, but the official narratives have proven to have not been entirely truthful often at best, lies at worst.  

 

If you merge the two, that was very likely the reason why Diggs wanted out.  

 

It's way premature for anyone to insist that this "new approach," and a style that Allen has yet to play regularly much less master to this date, will be an improvement.  

 

It sounds catchy, cook, even mildly innovative, but we've heard many things this time of year that never panned out.  

 

At best for the time being, we'll see how it shakes out.  

 

Pinning the entirety of the situation on a superficial narrative however doesn't line up with reality.  I know you'll disagree, obviously, since implicitly you already have, but nonetheless.  

 

 

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Yeah, that's the narrative, but the official narratives have proven to have not been entirely truthful often at best, lies at worst.  

 

If you merge the two, that was very likely the reason why Diggs wanted out.  

 

It's way premature for anyone to insist that this "new approach," and a style that Allen has yet to play regularly much less master to this date, will be an improvement.  

 

It sounds catchy, cook, even mildly innovative, but we've heard many things this time of year that never panned out.  

 

At best for the time being, we'll see how it shakes out.  

 

Pinning the entirety of the situation on a superficial narrative however doesn't line up with reality.  I know you'll disagree, obviously, since implicitly you already have, but nonetheless.  

 

 

 

I am not insisting anything will work out. The lack of talent at WR is still what it is. But I can tell you for a fact Diggs issues long predate Brady becoming OC and I don't believe his departure and this "new" offensive approach are in any way linked.

[Captain Hindsight]

This is one reason why I Haven't been that worried about the WR room. Theres talent there and if they can get open and make plays, who cares who is the number 1 or number 2? Move the ball and score points. I'm confident that any group led by JA17 can move the ball and score points 

[JP51]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

In all seriousness, I do believe that the future of offensive football is "positionless" to a certain extent.

To call Christian McCaffrey a running back does not accurately describe all that he does. To call prime Deebo Samuel a wide receiver does not accurately describe all that he does. To call Dalton Kincaid a tight end does not accurately describe all that he does.

You get the picture. 

I think Brady plans to be "Mr Matchup". He collected a pile of skill players with different skillsets, and -- based on the camp report from day one -- plans to employ a multitude of motions and shifts to get certain offensive players matched up against certain defensive players in isolation or against certain coverages, and expects Josh to simply find and exploit the most advantageous matchup. That may sound like an obvious, "duh" sort of statement, but it's not exactly how things worked under Ken Dorsey or Brian Daboll.

I whole heartedly agree here... I think the time of a 1 position focused play is fading out and players that can do multiples are being looked at as more valuable. 

[PBF81]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not insisting anything will work out. The lack of talent at WR is still what it is. But I can tell you for a fact Diggs issues long predate Brady becoming OC and I don't believe his departure and this "new" offensive approach are in any way linked.

 

Well, OK, but the fact is that while you may believe that, it is not necessarily true.  

 

Remember, last season at this time there were zero issues whatsoever wrt Diggs, none, everything was hunky dory.  He and Allen were forever besties, there was nothing between he and the team/McD, etc.  

 

That obviously turned out to not be 100% true to understate matters, really more like nearly entirely false.  

 

And yes, I understand your position, nor did I suggest that you think it will work out, but plenty reading it do think it's going to be all peaches and roses.  You've read here.  

 

Insofar as the plan here goes, regardless of what it's called, how coaches refer to it, the official strategies involved, etc., it appears that the offense this year is attempting to be the type where creativity is used in the routes and receivers, and that the plan is for Allen to have the plays develop while hitting the open guy for whatever gain we can get, or thereabouts without much specificity being offered by the team/coaching staff contrarily.  In short, the writing on the wall suggests a mitigation in our deeper passing game, focusing instead on the short-medium high-percentage passing game as they call it.  Numerous people have in similar words stated as much here and elsewhere.  

 

If that's true, then it is also irrefutable that this will be the first time that Allen plays this way.  He hasn't even typically much less consistently taken advantage of the short-medium higher percentage receivers that have been wide open in the past, opting instead to go deep, for better or for worse.  So this will be new territory for him.  All we have as a reference is Brady's system at the end of last season which produced below-average metrics for Allen, way below on the efficiency metrics.  

 

No doubt we're all curious as to how this shakes out.  The one thing that we do know is that it'll be interesting one way or the other.  

 

 

[Chaos]

This is going to be a cap mess when everyone wants QB money

[PBF81]

13 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

This is one reason why I Haven't been that worried about the WR room. Theres talent there and if they can get open and make plays, who cares who is the number 1 or number 2? Move the ball and score points. I'm confident that any group led by JA17 can move the ball and score points 

 

The question is how much does that offense have to rely exclusively on Allen to make that happen, particularly in the running game.  

 

According to the one camp report posted here today, he was down on the field and had his ankle wrapped.  We must assume that it's nothing, but if it isn't nothing or gets worse, high-ankle sprain or whatever, then it will heavily impact his ability to run.  

 

 

[dma0034]

Allen is catching a pass this year. Calling it now

[Punching Bag]

This is a offense system which will require a LOT of studying and I hope the Bills staff did as much testing of the players on grasping of concepts as they did for Josh before they picked him.   Some "college educated" players just have trouble learning playbooks. I hope Joe (hate calling him Brady like Marcia) will be able to determine quickly what offense pieces will fit this system.  I suspect that if it is successful opposition teams will want to sign players cut to get inside info to more quickly adjust.

 

 The adjusting on the fly was what Stevie Johnson did who made some all pro CBs look like Div III walk-ons but it also required a QB and OC in sync with him.

 

Looking forward to 99 yard seam route TD to Reggie Gilliam. 

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, Logic said:

In all seriousness, I do believe that the future of offensive football is "positionless" to a certain extent.

To call Christian McCaffrey a running back does not accurately describe all that he does. To call prime Deebo Samuel a wide receiver does not accurately describe all that he does. To call Dalton Kincaid a tight end does not accurately describe all that he does.

You get the picture. 

I think Brady plans to be "Mr Matchup". He collected a pile of skill players with different skillsets, and -- based on the camp report from day one -- plans to employ a multitude of motions and shifts to get certain offensive players matched up against certain defensive players in isolation or against certain coverages, and expects Josh to simply find and exploit the most advantageous matchup. That may sound like an obvious, "duh" sort of statement, but it's not exactly how things worked under Ken Dorsey or Brian Daboll.

Yup-  matchups, matchup and more matchups.  Seek the mismatches

[transient]

4 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

 

Sounds like the "Total Football" concept made famous by the great teams in the Netherlands in the mid 70s and 80s under Johan Cruyff and then FC Barcelona...

 

Players don't have a position and are pretty much free to go wherever they want and their teammates are expected to see, react and cover them.  Basically it required great spatial awareness to be able to see openings and both exploit them on offense and cover them on defense.

 

Will be interesting to see what Brady's concepts look like with this transferred to the NFL.

Sooooo... you're suggesting Joe Brady just finished watching season 3 of Ted Lasso?

 

[Shaw66]

51 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, OK, but the fact is that while you may believe that, it is not necessarily true.  

 

Remember, last season at this time there were zero issues whatsoever wrt Diggs, none, everything was hunky dory.  He and Allen were forever besties, there was nothing between he and the team/McD, etc.  

 

That obviously turned out to not be 100% true to understate matters, really more like nearly entirely false.  

 

And yes, I understand your position, nor did I suggest that you think it will work out, but plenty reading it do think it's going to be all peaches and roses.  You've read here.  

 

Insofar as the plan here goes, regardless of what it's called, how coaches refer to it, the official strategies involved, etc., it appears that the offense this year is attempting to be the type where creativity is used in the routes and receivers, and that the plan is for Allen to have the plays develop while hitting the open guy for whatever gain we can get, or thereabouts without much specificity being offered by the team/coaching staff contrarily.  In short, the writing on the wall suggests a mitigation in our deeper passing game, focusing instead on the short-medium high-percentage passing game as they call it.  Numerous people have in similar words stated as much here and elsewhere.  

 

If that's true, then it is also irrefutable that this will be the first time that Allen plays this way.  He hasn't even typically much less consistently taken advantage of the short-medium higher percentage receivers that have been wide open in the past, opting instead to go deep, for better or for worse.  So this will be new territory for him.  All we have as a reference is Brady's system at the end of last season which produced below-average metrics for Allen, way below on the efficiency metrics.  

 

No doubt we're all curious as to how this shakes out.  The one thing that we do know is that it'll be interesting one way or the other.  

 

 

Talk about adopting a narrative.   I don't think the data support the idea that Josh hasn't succeeded in the short to medium range.  Last season he was in the top 10 in ALL categories of throws - 10 yards, 20, 30, 40, 50.  Tua was the deep bomber in the league last season, not Josh.  

 

But more importantly, this issue about Diggs is not something new.  I worried about Diggs all through 22 and 23.  It was easy to see through body language, sideline behavior and other things that he was not consistently a team guy.  He was a great team guy some of the time, but it was clear that he was always about Diggs.  It was obvious, for example, that the Bills went out of their way to get Diggs a completion early - if he didn't catch a ball in the first quarter, his attitude changed.   It's a problem when your QB has to worry about keeping his best player happy.  The QB's job is to run the offense, and the receiver's job is to run his routes and catch the ball.  When the receiver's focus get selfish, and when the QB is worried about keeping the guy happy, that hurts the offense.   We saw it last season, but it had been coming before that. 

 

In 2023, I didn't think of him as the go-to guy that he was earlier in his career in Buffalo.  

 

So, at least for me, the "Diggs is a problem" narrative wasn't new.  

[BillsVet]

37 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

Insofar as the plan here goes, regardless of what it's called, how coaches refer to it, the official strategies involved, etc., it appears that the offense this year is attempting to be the type where creativity is used in the routes and receivers, and that the plan is for Allen to have the plays develop while hitting the open guy for whatever gain we can get, or thereabouts without much specificity being offered by the team/coaching staff contrarily.  In short, the writing on the wall suggests a mitigation in our deeper passing game, focusing instead on the short-medium high-percentage passing game as they call it.  Numerous people have in similar words stated as much here and elsewhere.  

 

If that's true, then it is also irrefutable that this will be the first time that Allen plays this way.  He hasn't even typically much less consistently taken advantage of the short-medium higher percentage receivers that have been wide open in the past, opting instead to go deep, for better or for worse.  So this will be new territory for him.  All we have as a reference is Brady's system at the end of last season which produced below-average metrics for Allen, way below on the efficiency metrics.  

 

No doubt we're all curious as to how this shakes out.  The one thing that we do know is that it'll be interesting one way or the other.  

 

Yeah.  And, this is the first year that McD has an OC and the personnel to run his complementary version of football to the max.     

 

Because Brady is aligned with McD in a way Daboll and Dorsey were not.  He'll design an offense that fits within the HC's concept.    

 

And if it doesn't work, the long knives will come out for Allen.  I hope it doesn't reach that, but this isn't so much a Josh issue as it is the wrong strategy/vision for how to win in the modern NFL with a franchise QB.    

[TBBills Fan]

5 hours ago, Warcodered said:

Everyone being able to attack from anywhere sounds like a massive headache for a DC, if you can get everyone to be able to do it.

Exactly.  If each player is lining up in the same position it is much easier for the D to game plan. 

 

If all the weapons could line up everywhere, and do, then it is much more difficult for the other teams D to do their job

 

 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, OK, but the fact is that while you may believe that, it is not necessarily true.  

 

Remember, last season at this time there were zero issues whatsoever wrt Diggs, none, everything was hunky dory.  He and Allen were forever besties, there was nothing between he and the team/McD, etc.  

 

That obviously turned out to not be 100% true to understate matters, really more like nearly entirely false.  

 

 

Well I was on here last offseason saying things were not hunky dory and relationships were strained and between Josh and Stef at that point non-existent. I don't really care what the narrative was or wasn't. I am telling you what I was told as a fact by someone in a position to know. And I was not the only one. Other reputable long term posters on this site had versions of the same story about the relationship. 

 

I don't know for certain that the new offense wasn't a part, that is true. But I do know for certain that the issues between Diggs and individuals in the organisation date back to the middle of 2022. That isn't opinion. That is fact. It just appears to me based on what I know to be true that the issues that led to his departure are related to that and not Joe Brady or his offense. 

[SCBills]

In theory, this makes a ton of sense.  
 

In practice, it better work or all we’ll hear about is another case of using fancy terminology to cover up for lack of WR investment ala “we view them all as pass catchers”. 

[Big Turk]

56 minutes ago, transient said:

Sooooo... you're suggesting Joe Brady just finished watching season 3 of Ted Lasso?

 

 

hahahaha, maybe...

[HappyDays]

I'm certainly skeptical of the concept but it's the philosophy they have to live with based on the personnel. The coaching staff and the fanbase at large have all latched onto this idea that logically boils down to "having no true #1 creates more efficency." I definitely need to see it to believe it. At the very least I am confident that the complementary players we have can play their respective roles well. I am just not convinced by this idea that the whole will be greater than the parts, not until proven otherwise on Sundays. I'd love to be wrong and for Brady to turn out to be an offensive mastermind capable of making the concept work.

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I'm certainly skeptical of the concept but it's the philosophy they have to live with based on the personnel. 

I don't understand why you're skeptical.  The Rams have been doing it for years.  Last season, their top five receivers were Puka Nacua WR, Cooper Kupp WR, Tyler Higbee TE, Tutu Atwell WR, Demarcus Robinson WR, which is a hardly a list of stud talent.  

 

Yes, Nacua put up big numbers, but he was fifth round rookie.  Does anyone really think that he dominated because he has superior talent?  Of course not.  He dominated because he was operating in a good system that employed the same concepts that we're talking about here.  Kupp, too.  Those guys aren't studs - they're the right guys for the system they run out there.  

 

I'm not saying it's going to work; we'll only know that once we see it in action.  But I'm not skeptical - it's the way the league is heading. 

[HappyDays]

27 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't understand why you're skeptical.  The Rams have been doing it for years.  Last season, their top five receivers were Puka Nacua WR, Cooper Kupp WR, Tyler Higbee TE, Tutu Atwell WR, Demarcus Robinson WR, which is a hardly a list of stud talent.  

 

Yes, Nacua put up big numbers, but he was fifth round rookie.  Does anyone really think that he dominated because he has superior talent?  Of course not.  He dominated because he was operating in a good system that employed the same concepts that we're talking about here.  Kupp, too.  Those guys aren't studs - they're the right guys for the system they run out there.  

 

I'm not saying it's going to work; we'll only know that once we see it in action.  But I'm not skeptical - it's the way the league is heading. 

 

Rather than arguing over the merits of the WRs you listed versus ours, I'll say I'm mainly skeptical because I'm not convinced that Joe Brady is anywhere close to Sean McVay. So like I said at the end of my post I would love for Brady to prove me wrong. I feel pretty confident that I know how each of our skill players will perform this year, for better or worse. I'm less confident that I know how Brady will perform, again for better or worse. I won't be totally shocked if he turns out to be a top 8ish offensive mind. I need to see it first though.

 

I also don't want to be the guy that drags arguments from other threads into this one, so I'll leave it at that.

 

For what it's worth I can see the vision. Almost all of our primary skill players on offense can be moved all around the formation. I can envision an offensive mastermind turning that into something very difficult to defend, even in the absence of one player that can take over games. Just need to see it.

 

Edited July 25 by HappyDays