The Frankish Reich Posted July 15 Posted July 15 I thought it best to pull out a separate topic for him. I don't want this to be about snark or insults. He's a interesting guy, but I'm not sure how much of that is "interesting because he may bring new policy approaches to the forefront," or "interesting in that he may be a pure yes man." And that's because the pre-2016 Vance talked about this very differently than the post-Trump era version. My starting point: listen to this (or read the trancript) - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/21/opinion/jd-vance-populism.html And this: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/13/opinion/jd-vance-interview.html The Hillbilly Elegy guy identified the problem in the decline of mid-Appalachian America. What was interesting is that he didn't take the position that these people were blameless noble folks overrun by the modern globalist economy. Yes, the economy left many behind. But yes too, a damaged culture helped lead to (or at least exacerbated) their problems. I read the book - it was good. Thoughtful. Not preachy or highly politicized. But definitely judgmental. I preferred Kevin Williamson's sharper (and better written) take on the same issues: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/big-white-ghetto_kevin-d-williamson/25815774/#edition=27573025&idiq=63859135. Much of that one may be available in shorter articles in the National Review. But they were both illuminating takes on poverty and social disintegration in white middle America. "Nationalist populism" or whatever we're calling it now is kind of the outgrowth of this, and JD Vance was there at the diagnosis stage. But what's the prescription? As Ross Douthut points out, that's always been the issue - you've diagnosed the disease, now what do you do to cure it. Increased tariffs and strict immigration policy? Focusing education more on vocational training? How would the federal government do that? No tax on tips? Industrial policy. Biden seems to think that one will work, at least a little. How would a Trump/Vance policy be different? Reagan used to think the solution to regions the economy left behind is to facilitate relocation to the growing regions with "mobility bonds" - actually pay people to pick up and move to where opportunity is today. That was an awful idea for people who love places like Buffalo, but really, isn't that what we wound up with anyway? (Just look at where most of the posters here live now) There's a smart, clear thinker behind the Trump Bandwagoneer. What's your take? 4 1
B-Man Posted July 15 Posted July 15 From the WAPO: “I think so many politicians are lost in the establishment,” he wrote. “They fail their constituents, their country, and ultimately — they fail themselves. It’s an industry of broken promises and corrupt practices. But I will never stoop to that level. My roots — my family — my hometown — are what got me here. The good and the bad.” -- JD Vance Vance grew up in a steel mill community in Ohio in a family beset by drug addiction and poverty, which he chronicled in his book, “Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis.” He served in the Marine Corps for four years, including a six month deployment to Iraq, before studying political science and philosophy at Ohio State University and attending Yale Law School. He went on to work at a large corporate law firm and then as a principal at billionaire Peter Thiel’s investment firm in San Francisco. The Ohio Republican has embraced a more populist direction for the GOP under Trump, embracing his “America First” policies and offshoots the former president and his followers have championed. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/15/jd-vance-trump-vice-president-announcement/? . 5
Tiberius Posted July 15 Posted July 15 He wants to cut off immigration and raise the minimum wage to $20 an hour? https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/13/opinion/jd-vance-interview.html. It’s a classic formulation: You raise the minimum wage to $20 an hour, and you will sometimes hear libertarians say this is a bad thing. “Well, isn’t McDonald’s just going to replace some of the workers with kiosks?” That’s a good thing, because then the workers who are still there are going to make higher wages; the kiosks will perform a useful function; and that’s the kind of rising tide that actually lifts all boats. What is not good is you replace the McDonald’s worker from Middletown, Ohio, who makes $17 an hour with an immigrant who makes $15 an hour. And that is, I think, the main thrust of elite liberalism, whether people acknowledge it or not. Or the hotels example. If you cannot hire illegal migrants to staff your hotels, then you have to go to one of the seven million prime-age American men who are out of the labor force and find some way to re-engage them. It’s amazing: To this day, I hear from Republican donors, “Oh, I’ll support you because you’re Republican, but you’re not pro-business.” Well, what do you mean I’m not pro-business? I actually really agree with the classic libertarian critique of the regulatory regime. “But we can’t run our business unless we have some of these immigrants coming over, because we can’t find people who are going to do the job.” My response is that there are people who would do those jobs if the incentives were there. 2
The Frankish Reich Posted July 16 Author Posted July 16 32 minutes ago, B-Man said: From the WAPO: “I think so many politicians are lost in the establishment,” he wrote. “They fail their constituents, their country, and ultimately — they fail themselves. It’s an industry of broken promises and corrupt practices. But I will never stoop to that level. My roots — my family — my hometown — are what got me here. The good and the bad.” -- JD Vance Vance grew up in a steel mill community in Ohio in a family beset by drug addiction and poverty, which he chronicled in his book, “Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis.” He served in the Marine Corps for four years, including a six month deployment to Iraq, before studying political science and philosophy at Ohio State University and attending Yale Law School. He went on to work at a large corporate law firm and then as a principal at billionaire Peter Thiel’s investment firm in San Francisco. The Ohio Republican has embraced a more populist direction for the GOP under Trump, embracing his “America First” policies and offshoots the former president and his followers have championed. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/15/jd-vance-trump-vice-president-announcement/? . Yes, this is his story, and I do find it pretty compelling. But what are his "America First" policies? Again, it's the diagnosis - white lower class/lower middle class interior America is suffering - but how do we address that? 31 minutes ago, Tiberius said: He wants to cut off immigration and raise the minimum wage to $20 an hour? https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/13/opinion/jd-vance-interview.html. It’s a classic formulation: You raise the minimum wage to $20 an hour, and you will sometimes hear libertarians say this is a bad thing. “Well, isn’t McDonald’s just going to replace some of the workers with kiosks?” That’s a good thing, because then the workers who are still there are going to make higher wages; the kiosks will perform a useful function; and that’s the kind of rising tide that actually lifts all boats. What is not good is you replace the McDonald’s worker from Middletown, Ohio, who makes $17 an hour with an immigrant who makes $15 an hour. And that is, I think, the main thrust of elite liberalism, whether people acknowledge it or not. Or the hotels example. If you cannot hire illegal migrants to staff your hotels, then you have to go to one of the seven million prime-age American men who are out of the labor force and find some way to re-engage them. It’s amazing: To this day, I hear from Republican donors, “Oh, I’ll support you because you’re Republican, but you’re not pro-business.” Well, what do you mean I’m not pro-business? I actually really agree with the classic libertarian critique of the regulatory regime. “But we can’t run our business unless we have some of these immigrants coming over, because we can’t find people who are going to do the job.” My response is that there are people who would do those jobs if the incentives were there. Well, that's two policy response. Restrict immigration to tighten the lower end labor market. That, believe it or not, used to be the Democratic/Bill Clinton position. And then raise the minimum wage a lot. But raising the minimum wage a lot will have no impact on the coasts, where prevailing wages (and/or state minimum wage laws) are already higher. It will cause business to leave middle America, where prevailing wages may be $11/hour and where businesses simply can't afford to almost double their payroll costs. How does this help? 1
SCBills Posted July 16 Posted July 16 If JD Vance causes the Teamsters to simply not endorse anyone, especially while giving implicit direction to its members that they can vote for Trump, he will end up proving a lot of people (myself included) wrong, on being a policy implementation guy and not a guy who expands the map. Huge implications for PA, MI & WI. 2 1
Big Blitz Posted July 16 Posted July 16 23 minutes ago, SCBills said: If JD Vance causes the Teamsters to simply not endorse anyone, especially while giving implicit direction to its members that they can vote for Trump, he will end up proving a lot of people (myself included) wrong, on being a policy implementation guy and not a guy who expands the map. Huge implications for PA, MI & WI. Teamsters President the main speaker the day of the Vance announcement is no coincidence. 1
LeGOATski Posted July 16 Posted July 16 Seems like a yes man politician so far, but I'm interested to see where it goes. He definitely has a more interesting profile than the former VP Pence. 1
Joe Ferguson forever Posted July 16 Posted July 16 "I can't stomach Trump," Vance said in an interview with NPR at the time. "I think that he's noxious and is leading the White working class to a very dark place." After the "Access Hollywood" tape emerged of Trump bragging about being able to grope women, Vance wrote in a since-deleted social media post: "Fellow Christians, everyone is watching us. When we apologize for this man, lord help us."
LeviF Posted July 16 Posted July 16 Almost all of his senate staffers are over six feet tall and use nicotine. He’s one of us. 1
Joe Ferguson forever Posted July 16 Posted July 16 (edited) 6 minutes ago, LeviF said: Almost all of his senate staffers are over six feet tall and use nicotine. He’s one of us. This reminds me of the time a fellow parishioner asked if I had a gun and a bible. When I said yes, he told me I couldn't possibly be a liberal. Edited July 16 by Joe Ferguson forever
Tiberius Posted July 16 Posted July 16 6 minutes ago, LeviF said: Almost all of his senate staffers are over six feet tall and use nicotine. He’s one of us. Just watch, the media will start finding the wife beaters in that group, just like they did with Trump.
Joe Ferguson forever Posted July 16 Posted July 16 Fascinating interview. Illustrates his formation in his own words. He sounded more like a D than an R here: https://www.npr.org/2016/08/17/490328484/hillbilly-elegy-recalls-a-childhood-where-poverty-was-the-family-tradition
B-Man Posted July 16 Posted July 16 Top Five Reasons J.D. Vance Is the Perfect VP Pick COMMENTARY By Steve Cortes FTA: As someone who has spent many hours with J.D. Vance and campaigned for him vigorously in his successful underdog Senate win, I can provide insight into the five best reasons that Vance was the pitch-perfect pick: 1. His Backstory: Like Trump, Vance arrives in politics as an outsider. J.D. gained national recognition when he captured hearts and minds with his bestselling memoir, Hillbilly Elegy, and the Academy Award-winning movie adaptation. With searing eloquence, he describes the challenges facing working-class America, especially heartland communities decimated by economic decline and cultural decay. Vance shares his rare perspective as someone who rose from a troubled family and poor communities to an Ivy League law degree and professional success. For J.D., a devoted grandmother and the U.S. Marine Corps formed his path toward upward mobility – the keys to his Horatio Alger life story that will resonate with voters, especially blue-collar citizens in battleground states. 2. America First Foreign Policy: As a veteran who was deployed with the Marines to a war zone, Vance speaks with personal authority and authenticity when he counters the schemes of the interventionist Washington foreign policy establishment. In fact, Vance has emerged as one of the most persuasive voices for a true Trumpian international approach of realism and restraint. Regarding trade policy with China or military assistance to Ukraine, Vance represents well the growing populism of Republican and independent voters who insist that we secure America’s own prosperity and our own border before prioritizing foreigners and faraway regional battles. These issues matter materially to voters. In fact, Trump’s 2016 victory was decisively propelled by key voter shifts in the areas of battleground states with the highest concentrations of injured veterans. Those patriots rallied to Trump’s peace agenda, and they will again. 3. Media and Debate Skills: Vance won his Senate seat as an outsider political novice in a hotly contested primary against far better-financed opponents with significant political experience. This grueling come-from-behind win sharpened his media abilities enormously, and that trend has only accelerated since he joined the Senate. Unlike many Republican elected officials, Vance willingly and enthusiastically welcomes tough, confrontational interviews on hostile platforms, and handles those interrogations with aplomb. In addition, anyone rooting for Donald Trump to serve a second term should relish the prospect of a Vance vs. Kamala Harris debate, which might prove almost as much of a mismatch as Trump’s drubbing of mumbling Biden. Vance commands mastery of policy details, yet delivers that knowledge with clarity and likeability. As for the current vice president? Well, let’s just say she will not enjoy trying to match Vance’s intellect or authenticity. 4. The Correct Political Detractors: Vance acts as a magnet for particularly heated vitriol from the spokesmen and platforms of the American ruling class. Why? Because they see him as a former insider who turned on them. In other words, just like Donald Trump, Vance was once considered part of the “club” of elites, given his educational pedigree and experience in finance. Moreover, the huge success of his book and movie made him, briefly, the toast of the town in places like Silicon Valley and Hollywood. Like Trump, he could have continued on that path of lucrative deals and constant adulation from the supposed “important people.” Instead, to pursue better lives for Americans in circumstances he knew as a child and young man, Vance chose the more difficult path as a populist political thinker and officeholder. He knowingly passed on rewards and accolades for higher patriotic goals, which speaks to his true character as a man and as a candidate. 5. Youth and Vigor: In a race where the cognitive state of the current president becomes a front-and-center theme of the campaign, the vitality and strength of Vance provide an important contrast. But even more importantly, beyond this election, Vance is perfectly positioned to be Trump’s effective partner and understudy for four years in the White House – and then to lead the America First movement well into the future after Trump’s term. Intraparty contests can be tough and bruising, whether primary fights or competitions for running-mate selection. Clearly, there were other super impressive candidates in the mix for this key position as vice-presidential nominee. The GOP bench is populated and healthy! https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2024/07/16/top_five_reasons_jd_vance_is_the_perfect_vp_pick_151271.html 1
The Frankish Reich Posted July 16 Author Posted July 16 1 minute ago, B-Man said: Top Five Reasons J.D. Vance Is the Perfect VP Pick COMMENTARY By Steve Cortes FTA: As someone who has spent many hours with J.D. Vance and campaigned for him vigorously in his successful underdog Senate win, I can provide insight into the five best reasons that Vance was the pitch-perfect pick: 1. His Backstory: Like Trump, Vance arrives in politics as an outsider. J.D. gained national recognition when he captured hearts and minds with his bestselling memoir, Hillbilly Elegy, and the Academy Award-winning movie adaptation. With searing eloquence, he describes the challenges facing working-class America, especially heartland communities decimated by economic decline and cultural decay. Vance shares his rare perspective as someone who rose from a troubled family and poor communities to an Ivy League law degree and professional success. For J.D., a devoted grandmother and the U.S. Marine Corps formed his path toward upward mobility – the keys to his Horatio Alger life story that will resonate with voters, especially blue-collar citizens in battleground states. 2. America First Foreign Policy: As a veteran who was deployed with the Marines to a war zone, Vance speaks with personal authority and authenticity when he counters the schemes of the interventionist Washington foreign policy establishment. In fact, Vance has emerged as one of the most persuasive voices for a true Trumpian international approach of realism and restraint. Regarding trade policy with China or military assistance to Ukraine, Vance represents well the growing populism of Republican and independent voters who insist that we secure America’s own prosperity and our own border before prioritizing foreigners and faraway regional battles. These issues matter materially to voters. In fact, Trump’s 2016 victory was decisively propelled by key voter shifts in the areas of battleground states with the highest concentrations of injured veterans. Those patriots rallied to Trump’s peace agenda, and they will again. 3. Media and Debate Skills: Vance won his Senate seat as an outsider political novice in a hotly contested primary against far better-financed opponents with significant political experience. This grueling come-from-behind win sharpened his media abilities enormously, and that trend has only accelerated since he joined the Senate. Unlike many Republican elected officials, Vance willingly and enthusiastically welcomes tough, confrontational interviews on hostile platforms, and handles those interrogations with aplomb. In addition, anyone rooting for Donald Trump to serve a second term should relish the prospect of a Vance vs. Kamala Harris debate, which might prove almost as much of a mismatch as Trump’s drubbing of mumbling Biden. Vance commands mastery of policy details, yet delivers that knowledge with clarity and likeability. As for the current vice president? Well, let’s just say she will not enjoy trying to match Vance’s intellect or authenticity. 4. The Correct Political Detractors: Vance acts as a magnet for particularly heated vitriol from the spokesmen and platforms of the American ruling class. Why? Because they see him as a former insider who turned on them. In other words, just like Donald Trump, Vance was once considered part of the “club” of elites, given his educational pedigree and experience in finance. Moreover, the huge success of his book and movie made him, briefly, the toast of the town in places like Silicon Valley and Hollywood. Like Trump, he could have continued on that path of lucrative deals and constant adulation from the supposed “important people.” Instead, to pursue better lives for Americans in circumstances he knew as a child and young man, Vance chose the more difficult path as a populist political thinker and officeholder. He knowingly passed on rewards and accolades for higher patriotic goals, which speaks to his true character as a man and as a candidate. 5. Youth and Vigor: In a race where the cognitive state of the current president becomes a front-and-center theme of the campaign, the vitality and strength of Vance provide an important contrast. But even more importantly, beyond this election, Vance is perfectly positioned to be Trump’s effective partner and understudy for four years in the White House – and then to lead the America First movement well into the future after Trump’s term. Intraparty contests can be tough and bruising, whether primary fights or competitions for running-mate selection. Clearly, there were other super impressive candidates in the mix for this key position as vice-presidential nominee. The GOP bench is populated and healthy! https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2024/07/16/top_five_reasons_jd_vance_is_the_perfect_vp_pick_151271.html Fair assessment. Again, what's missing? Any idea of how "America First" translates into policy that will raise the standing of the American middle and lower classes. Ultimately that is the issue that propelled him into the public sphere. But what would he do about it?
K D Posted July 16 Posted July 16 2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Fair assessment. Again, what's missing? Any idea of how "America First" translates into policy that will raise the standing of the American middle and lower classes. Ultimately that is the issue that propelled him into the public sphere. But what would he do about it? I'd like to see manufacturing jobs brought back but unions and whiney brats make that difficult. Because of social media everyone thinks they should be the Kardashians. If you work at a factory you should expect to make a middle class salary on average for your area of the country. If you think you deserve 6 figures like UPS guys then that's why your job gets offshored or replaced with AI/Machines. It's greed on both sides. 1 1
Tiberius Posted July 16 Posted July 16 1 minute ago, KDIGGZ said: I'd like to see manufacturing jobs brought back but unions and whiney brats make that difficult. Because of social media everyone thinks they should be the Kardashians. If you work at a factory you should expect to make a middle class salary on average for your area of the country. If you think you deserve 6 figures like UPS guys then that's why your job gets offshored or replaced with AI/Machines. It's greed on both sides. Workers are kind of upset about being forced to show up on time, too. Employers are just so demanding!
K D Posted July 16 Posted July 16 Just now, Tiberius said: Workers are kind of upset about being forced to show up on time, too. Employers are just so demanding! The American worker used to be the gold standard. "Made in America" meant something. Now it's a bunch of whiney babies that would rather stay home and play video games and do drugs because why bother. The entitlement is off the charts 1
Lost Posted July 16 Posted July 16 13 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Fair assessment. Again, what's missing? Any idea of how "America First" translates into policy that will raise the standing of the American middle and lower classes. Ultimately that is the issue that propelled him into the public sphere. But what would he do about it? Not becoming a welfare state will increase the standard of living for middle and lower class Americans. Hard for people to take pride in working when migrants are coming en mass and living better off of government subsidies than most rural blue collar workers or even retirees on social security while contributing absolutely nothing to society. I myself lived through poverty for all of my childhood and a portion of my adult life. I never wanted handouts from the government but at the same time didn't want to be put at a disadvantage because so many others are. We have a major cultural problem in the U.S. and the world at large today. Everything we perceive to be wrong within our own lives and around us is always someone else's fault and there's very little introspection. I consider this the entitlement generation. 1 3
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