Is Josh Allen already the best dual-threat QB ever?

[ToGoGo]

6 hours ago, Gugny said:

Maybe I’m just old school, but the “best ever” at anything actually has to win a championship. 

Steve Young, hands down. 

 

 

There’s always one in every thread. 

[Saxum]

Hard to judge vs QBs who had to play in eras where WRs were frequently tackled without flags (i.e Giants in Superbowl) and QBs who could be and often were everywhere.

[PBF81]

YES! 

 

Now let's get a coach that doesn't hold him back and see how much better the offense at large and he can be!  

 

 

6 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

If Allen did what he does now in the timeframe when Elway played he'd never survive.  There isn't a Ronnie Lott or Steve Atwater in the modern game.  In Elway's time everybody had someone who at least tried to hit like that. There is a reason that "dual-threat" QBs with big dual-threat stats don't really exist historically and one of the comparisons to Allen retired due to repeated concussions (Steve Young). If you ran that much on purpose you'd get hurt.  There are also a couple people who would have been interesting if you teleported them out of the Neanderthal offenses their coaches insisted on running at the time.  Randall Cunningham being one of them.

 

I've said it repeatedly and will continue to, if you took some of the QBs out of the 80's and early 90's when passing started to become a much larger thing and put them into the modern world where they can't be touched and their WRs can't really be touched they'd look amazing and would have lasted significantly longer to boot.  So yeah, call Allen the best dual-threat QB ever if you have to but just recognize that there have been people who came before that would have looked MUCH different if they played under the current rules.  Marino threw for 5k yards under those conditions in 1984 and it took until 2008 before anybody did it again.  Since 2008 it's happened 14 times.  It's a different game.  Making these sorts of statements and comparisons is going to be inherently flawed and almost always skews in favor of the more recent players but don't tell me you watched that Elway highlight video and didn't see Josh Allen running.  

 

Great post!

 

Keep in mind however that Allen's a beast, even compared to Elway or Young, who were 6'-2"/3" & 215.  Allen's 6'5"/237 and more athletic than either with an even better arm.  

 

 

[JP51]

Elway

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Tarkenton

Elway

Young

Staubach

Allen

Jackson

Vick

[Neo]

The only name belonging in the same sentence as Allen, in this context, is Elway.  Reasonable people can drop Allen from the sentence.  IMHO.

 

I am waiting for someone to say “if Kyle Orton hadn’t slid short of a first down marker on fourth down, he’d be ahead of Allen.”

[SoonerBillsFan]

9 hours ago, Gugny said:

Maybe I’m just old school, but the “best ever” at anything actually has to win a championship. 

Steve Young, hands down. 

 

 

I will see your Steve young and raise you a Fran Tarkenton.

[RangerDave]

"Dual threat"?  How about the "triple threat" of "Slinging" Sammy Baugh, who lead the league in passing, punting, and interceptions as a safety for the Redskins.  The only player ever to do that in a single season.  Two of his records as quarterback still stand: most seasons leading the league in passing (six; tied with Steve Young) and most seasons leading the league with the lowest interception percentage (five).  He is still second all-time in punting average.  He was the first player to intercept 4 passes in one game.  

 

It's hard to compare players from different eras, but the early days had some amazing multi-threat players such as Sid Luckman, Otto Graham and Sammy Baugh.  (Sid Luckman probably doesn't make it to the "dual threat" category of today's game as he had a career rushing total of -224 yards. 😄)

[Rubes]

Man, it really chafes my ass that we've had this unicorn for so many years already and not even one Super Bowl appearance, much less a victory.

 

[Royale with Cheese]

10 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

If Allen did what he does now in the timeframe when Elway played he'd never survive.  There isn't a Ronnie Lott or Steve Atwater in the modern game.  In Elway's time everybody had someone who at least tried to hit like that. There is a reason that "dual-threat" QBs with big dual-threat stats don't really exist historically and one of the comparisons to Allen retired due to repeated concussions (Steve Young). If you ran that much on purpose you'd get hurt.  There are also a couple people who would have been interesting if you teleported them out of the Neanderthal offenses their coaches insisted on running at the time.  Randall Cunningham being one of them.

 

I've said it repeatedly and will continue to, if you took some of the QBs out of the 80's and early 90's when passing started to become a much larger thing and put them into the modern world where they can't be touched and their WRs can't really be touched they'd look amazing and would have lasted significantly longer to boot.  So yeah, call Allen the best dual-threat QB ever if you have to but just recognize that there have been people who came before that would have looked MUCH different if they played under the current rules.  Marino threw for 5k yards under those conditions in 1984 and it took until 2008 before anybody did it again.  Since 2008 it's happened 14 times.  It's a different game.  Making these sorts of statements and comparisons is going to be inherently flawed and almost always skews in favor of the more recent players but don't tell me you watched that Elway highlight video and didn't see Josh Allen running.  

You bring up very good points.

 

But to play devils advocate….defensive players are much faster and athletic today.  Today’s Linebackers are as fast as safetys in the 80’s and 90’s.  We run more cover 2 today than back then taking another slower LB off the field.

 

Allen has to avoid bigger, stronger, faster and more athletic defensive players.  Allen also has something Young and Cunningham didn’t….power.  Young and Cunningham could run by and/or elude you…so can Allen but can also run through you.  Also…jump over you.  Name another who could do that.
 

You don’t see the huge hits as much today not because they don’t hit as hard, it’s because the player safety is more of a concern now.  Bigger, faster and stronger players hit harder and that’s more dangerous.  Headhunting today is a stronger missile hitting.

You put a PSI measurement tool, I guarantee these players are destroying the players from the 80’s and 90’s.  Atwater and Lott included.  They hit hard back then, its not now.  Its physics…bigger faster object.

Edited July 13 by Royale with Cheese

[Freddie's Dead]

Yes.

[Sharky7337]

If only I had a dollar for every time a Joe Marino pod cast was posted here!

Edited July 13 by Sharky7337

[billsbackto81]

12 hours ago, Gugny said:

Maybe I’m just old school, but the “best ever” at anything actually has to win a championship. 

Steve Young, hands down. 

 

 

What champion RB would you take over Barry Sanders? Emmitt? Sweetness? 

 

Neither were as good as Barry IMO

 

DE Bruce Smith? 200 sacks! Who was better that has a ring? 

[billsbackto81]

3500 was the benchmark for passing and 1000 for rushing and receiving decades ago to be considered "elite".

 

Now, it's more like 4500 and 1500 respectively. 

 

I think to be considered a true "Dual Threat" QB you'd have to establish a standard of let's say 4000 yds passing and 600 yards rushing with a 40 TD total over a sustained period of time.

 

Ironically our boy is the only QB that consistently hits those numbers. 

 

Is he the greatest now? I'd say no.

 

But 2 more years like his last 4 and he will be without a doubt. 

Edited July 13 by billsbackto81

[MJS]

12 hours ago, Taro Nimbus said:

Right now, probably Cam Newton or Mike Vick.  Another season or two and Allen will be at the top. 

Well, I would argue they are running QB's, not true dual threats. Josh Allen blows them out of the water with passing ability and stats.

39 minutes ago, Sharky7337 said:

If only I had a dollar for every time a Joe Marino pod cast was posted here!

You'd have like 10 dollars!

[ToGoGo]

2 hours ago, Rubes said:

Man, it really chafes my ass that we've had this unicorn for so many years already and not even one Super Bowl appearance, much less a victory.

 

Patience grasshopper. 

[The Frankish Reich]

No thread that borders on the "most athletic QB ever" conversation will be complete without me mentioning this guy (RIP)

 

 

And as a runner. Is it Josh or is it Roman?

 

 

[njbuff]

1 hour ago, billsbackto81 said:

What champion RB would you take over Barry Sanders? Emmitt? Sweetness? 

 

Neither were as good as Barry IMO

 

DE Bruce Smith? 200 sacks! Who was better that has a ring? 

As great as Barry is, he wasn’t as good as Sweetness.

 

Sweetness is in a class by himself behind Jim Brown.

 

It’s Jim Brown #1, Sweetness #2, then it’s everyone else.

[billsbackto81]

27 minutes ago, njbuff said:

As great as Barry is, he wasn’t as good as Sweetness.

 

Sweetness is in a class by himself behind Jim Brown.

 

It’s Jim Brown #1, Sweetness #2, then it’s everyone else.

Old school, I can dig it.

Don't agree, but I dig it.

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

40 touchdowns in multiple consecutive seasons indicates that he probably is.