Joe Marino's Bills "Mt Rushmore"

[BillsPride12]

43 minutes ago, mannc said:

It’s pretty clear-cut, IMO:

 

OJ Simpson

Bruce Smith

Jim Kelly

Josh Allen

I'd probably have Thurman over Kelly 

[mannc]

7 minutes ago, BillsPride12 said:

I'd probably have Thurman over Kelly 

Thurman was a great player, but the Super Bowl years never happen without Jim Kelly, who was, at the time, easily the best QB in the history of the franchise.  And as good as he was, I don't think Thurman was ever a first team All-Pro player.

[oldmanfan]

Bills Mt Rushmore (if going on what the did for the franchise and if not taking into account degenerate murderers):

 

Smith

Kelly

OJ

Ralph 

 

If players alone (again if not taking into account degenerate murderers):

 

Smith

Kelly

OJ

Thomas

 

If removing degenerate murderers:

 

Smith

Kelly

Thomas

Shaw

[Ethan in Cleveland]

58 minutes ago, mannc said:

Thurman was a great player, but the Super Bowl years never happen without Jim Kelly, who was, at the time, easily the best QB in the history of the franchise.  And as good as he was, I don't think Thurman was ever a first team All-Pro player.

If you are going by NFL recognition then the debate is not even close.  

 

Thurman was a top 3 RB in his era with Smith and Sanders and if you were a Total yards from Scrimmage guy then he was the absolute best.  Thomas was a league MVP in 1991. He was first team All-pro twice and 2nd team three times. 

 

Kelly never was top 3 in his own era.  Kelly was first team All-Pro just once abd only second team once. You can make a good case he was not even top 5 with Elway, Marino, Young, and Aikman all either better or winning more championships.  Kelly was great for Buffalo and the K-gun but he was terrible in the playoffs. Thurman was what made that offense amazing.  

[The Frankish Reich]

On 7/11/2024 at 8:25 AM, Logic said:

I'm bored at work and absolutely refuse to get started on my Excel spreadsheets, so I decided to play the "Bills positional Mt Rushmore" game using the criteria cited. No one asked for this, but here it is anyway. Sorry, employer.



QB
Josh Allen
Jim Kelly

Jack Kemp

Joe Ferguson

 

RB
Thurman Thomas

OJ Simpson

Joe Cribbs

Fred Jackson

FB

Cookie Gilchrist
Sam Gash

Larry Centers
Jim Braxton

WR
Andre Reed
Eric Moulds
Elbert Dubenion
Stefon Diggs

TE
Ernie Warlick

Pete Metzelaars
Keith McKellar

Paul Costa

 

OT
House Ballard
Will Wolford
John Fina

Dion Dawkins

 

OG
Joe DeLamielleure

Billy Shaw
Ruben Brown

Jim Ritcher

 

C
Kent Hull

Al Bemiller
Mitch Morse

Eric Wood

 

DE
Bruce Smith

Aaron Schobel
Mario Williams
Phil Hansen

 

DT
Tom Sestak
Kyle Williams
Fred Smerlas
Mike Kadish

 

LB
Darryl Talley
Cornelius Bennett
Mike Stratton
Shane Conlan

CB
Butch Byrd
Booker Edgerson
Nate Odomes
Nate Clements

 

S
George Saimes
Micah Hyde
Jordan Poyer
Tony Greene
 

Nice work!

That's more Mt. Rushmore square footage than there is in the entire Black Hills.

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

if not taking into account degenerate murderers

Too soon.

https://www.legacy.com/news/celebrity-deaths/o-j-simpson-1947-2024-nfl-star-defendant-in-trial-of-the-century/

[Rampant Buffalo]

On 7/11/2024 at 10:25 AM, Logic said:

I'm bored at work and absolutely refuse to get started on my Excel spreadsheets, so I decided to play the "Bills positional Mt Rushmore" game using the criteria cited.

 

OT
House Ballard
Will Wolford
John Fina

Dion Dawkins

 

 

John Fina was in the same general category as Ryan Bates. Questionable whether Fina was starting caliber, let alone someone who belongs on a Bills Mt. Rushmore. Cordy Glenn was much better. @Bill from NYC has a point about Jason Peters being better than any of the four you mentioned.

[BillsPride12]

4 hours ago, mannc said:

Thurman was a great player, but the Super Bowl years never happen without Jim Kelly, who was, at the time, easily the best QB in the history of the franchise.  And as good as he was, I don't think Thurman was ever a first team All-Pro player.

He was literally the most valuable player in the league in 1991 

[I'm Spartacus]

5 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

You think that Washington was better than Pat Williams or Kyle Williams ? 

Absolutely.

[Whkfc]

On 7/11/2024 at 10:35 AM, MJS said:

No way does he unseat those 4, not yet at least.

Milano is better than Conlan was. Conlan was a GREAT run stuffer. But Milano is just all around better. 

[Big Turk]

On 7/13/2024 at 1:46 PM, Ethan in Cleveland said:

If you are going by NFL recognition then the debate is not even close.  

 

Thurman was a top 3 RB in his era with Smith and Sanders and if you were a Total yards from Scrimmage guy then he was the absolute best.  Thomas was a league MVP in 1991. He was first team All-pro twice and 2nd team three times. 

 

Kelly never was top 3 in his own era.  Kelly was first team All-Pro just once abd only second team once. You can make a good case he was not even top 5 with Elway, Marino, Young, and Aikman all either better or winning more championships.  Kelly was great for Buffalo and the K-gun but he was terrible in the playoffs. Thurman was what made that offense amazing.  

 

Thurman also was Offensive POY in the same year he was MVP and made the HOF all 1990s team as well...Kelly was none of those

 

Kelly: 

 

Thomas:

 

Not really close, IMO

 

Thomas also led the NFL in yards from scrimmage 4!! Straight years.

 

Reed was probably better than Kelly also, IMO

 

Edited July 14 by Big Turk

[Logic]

On 7/13/2024 at 5:55 AM, Bill from NYC said:

Sorry, but Jason Peters was better than any of those OTs and by a lagre margin imo. I will go a step further and say that he was easily one of the best players in team history.

 

A certain first ballot HOFer.

I don't disagree with your take on Jason Peters overall.

HOWEVER...my list was based on what those players did AS a Buffalo Bill, and did not factor in what came after.

Jason Peters did have two 2nd team All-Pros as a Bill, so I suppose you'd have an argument there, but...the vast majority of his HOF career came post-Buffalo.

It's the same reason Marshawn Lynch and LeSean McCoy and James Lofton aren't on my list.

 

21 hours ago, Rampant Buffalo said:

 

John Fina was in the same general category as Ryan Bates. Questionable whether Fina was starting caliber, let alone someone who belongs on a Bills Mt. Rushmore. Cordy Glenn was much better. @Bill from NYC has a point about Jason Peters being better than any of the four you mentioned.

Fina started 131 games across 10 years as a Buffalo Bill.

Ryan Bates started 19. Cordy Glenn started 78.

I take your point, but I think it's a bit of an exaggeration. 

As for Peters, I agree about him as a player, but again, these lists are based on what these players did as Buffalo Bills, and does not factor in anything that happened in another team's jersey. Still, Peters does have a reasonable argument, even though he was only a Bill for five years.

Edited July 14 by Logic

[Rampant Buffalo]

21 minutes ago, Logic said:

Fina started 131 games across 10 years as a Buffalo Bill.

Ryan Bates started 19. Cordy Glenn started 78.

I take your point, but I think it's a bit of an exaggeration. 

As for Peters, I agree about him as a player, but again, these lists are based on what these players did as Buffalo Bills, and does not factor in anything that happened in another team's jersey. Still, Peters does have a reasonable argument, even though he was only a Bill for five years.

 

Back when Marv was still head coach, the Bills had used two different rating services. Each put Fina in the bottom 10 for starting LTs. One of them put him lower down in the bottom 10 than did the other.

 

In his last year as GM, John Butler signed Fina to a large new extension. (Fina had 1 year left on his old contract when he'd signed the extension.) A year later, the new GM, Tom Donahoe, released Fina in a cost cutting move. Fina signed for the vet minimum with some other team.

 

Later in Cordy Glenn's career, the Bills traded him away to the Bengals. In exchange, they moved from 20th overall to 12th overall, as part of the trade-up for Josh Allen. I'm not saying that Cordy Glenn's name in particular needs to be on this list. But, I'm putting him out there as an example of a guy who was a good LT for the Bills, for a number of years. Fina's level of play was on the borderline between quality backup and low level starter: hence the Ryan Bates comparison.

[Paup 1995MVP]

On 7/12/2024 at 5:57 PM, amprov56 said:

Passed away in 2013; the thing about these players from that era is they were just normal working Joes who lived like most of the fans did and interacted with them like normal people. The fans of that era regardless of the Bills performance were not angry and vengeful, they just waited for next year and rooted hard for all of the players, they were part of the "blue collar" community! The AFL and the 1960's Bills provided alot of much needed relief for people that worked hard!

Thanks for those tidbits on George Saimes and how the 1960's Bills interacted with the community.  That is really cool.

On 7/12/2024 at 7:57 PM, oldmanfan said:

Butch Byrd was a CB.  He and Booker Egerson were both great.  Tre White was great.  And Taron Johnson is a great slot CB.  But after listing these I indicated I’d put Robert James in place of Taron.  All 4 of these guys were better than Winfield or Odomes, although they both were very good.

Robert James was great back in the 70's.  For some reason I remember the game he blew out his knee.  And I think it ended his career?  Was it a preseason game?  I was a kid and I have this vision of it happening at night.  I believe I was watching at my grandparents house in Detroit.  Weird memory of being a 9 year old kid..

[Paup 1995MVP]

On 7/12/2024 at 6:45 PM, Logic said:

Absolutely.

The thing that got me into the NFL as a kid was when the NFL Network would run marathons of the old NFL Films "Team Yearbooks" and "America's Greatest Games".

The sound of Fascenda's voice, the dramatic music, the slow motion...I fell in love.

Probably the most famous and well known example, but this absolutely cast a spell on me as a kid:
 

As far as trying to educate myself about the game of football...I do my best. I'm somewhat of a completist, and I love knowing everything there is to know about the past, present, and future of the game. You show me a "Top 10" or "Top 100" list or historical football documentary of any kind and I'm devouring it.

We also live in era where we are incredibly blessed by the wealth of old game footage and information available at the click of a mouse. Full games, player highlight packages, old broadcasts complete with the commercials, everything. One's ability to consume classic NFL is limited only by their appetite for it and their amount of free time.

In recent years, the three books I enjoyed the most and found the most informative in terms of educating me about the history of professional football are listed below. I highly recommend all three! I like to read them during football season, on the commercial breaks during games, because I otherwise I pace nervously. 

 

That video "Autumn Wind is a Raider" gives me chills.  Other than the Bills, would there have been any team better to play NFL football for then the 1970's Raiders??!! Just tough mean and talented.  Maybe the Greatest Show on Turf Rams as well.  I loved watching Kurt Warner throw a football.  So smooth.  

On 7/12/2024 at 8:05 PM, JP51 said:

I am actually friends with him on FB he was the one who reminded me of the bruise bros they had a poster he is real down to earth

I will let my mother know.  She will get a kick out of that.  She is still a big Bills fan.  Lives in Toronto and is 83.  Had seasons tickets until about 5 years ago.  Would drive down w her boyfriend from Toronto for most of the games.  But he has gotten sick and old.  So she stays in Toronto and watches all the games on TV.  And all the Blue Jays and Raptors games.  LOL  Last game I believe she went to was the blizzard game against the Colts.  

[amprov56]

19 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Thanks for those tidbits on George Saimes and how the 1960's Bills interacted with the community.  That is really cool.

Robert James was great back in the 70's.  For some reason I remember the game he blew out his knee.  And I think it ended his career?  Was it a preseason game?  I was a kid and I have this vision of it happening at night.  I believe I was watching at my grandparents house in Detroit.  Weird memory of being a 9 year old kid..

Robert James could have been the GOAT CB!

[RoyBatty is alive]

On 7/11/2024 at 8:35 AM, I'm Spartacus said:

Mine:

Defensive Tackle (nose too)....Tom Sestak, Fred Smerlas, Ted Washington, Ron McDole.

 

Safety....George Saimes, Henry Jones, Jordan Poyer, Micah Hyde 

Agreed but really showing your age!

[JP51]

1 hour ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

That video "Autumn Wind is a Raider" gives me chills.  Other than the Bills, would there have been any team better to play NFL football for then the 1970's Raiders??!! Just tough mean and talented.  Maybe the Greatest Show on Turf Rams as well.  I loved watching Kurt Warner throw a football.  So smooth.  

I will let my mother know.  She will get a kick out of that.  She is still a big Bills fan.  Lives in Toronto and is 83.  Had seasons tickets until about 5 years ago.  Would drive down w her boyfriend from Toronto for most of the games.  But he has gotten sick and old.  So she stays in Toronto and watches all the games on TV.  And all the Blue Jays and Raptors games.  LOL  Last game I believe she went to was the blizzard game against the Colts.  

You should tell her to friend him he loves interaction with the fans

[Mikie2times]

On 7/12/2024 at 5:28 PM, Simon said:

 

Those two were an absolutely textbook example of the difference between a tough, cerebral CB and a great athlete playing CB.

 

Nate Clements was absolutely one of the best pure athletes to ever put on a Bills uniform, imo. When he was at the top of his game he was arguably the best CB in the NFL for a stretch. Unfortunately he was either lazy and hated homework or he was just dumber than a chicken. This wasn't necessarily an issue against average OC/QB combinations because he was such a good athlete he could recover from almost any misstep. But when matched up against smart offenses that knew how to exploit mistakes and tendencies, he could be taken advantage of at times. While he was one of the few corners you'll ever see that could literally affect a scoreboard from that outside reactive position, he was never smart enough to do it consistently and because of it never reached his full potential.

Winfield was nowhere near the athlete that Clements was, and frankly it wasn't even close. But his smarts and his instincts made him a more consistently reliable defender. He actually got beat over the top a lot because he had to gamble to impact the game, but because he was really savvy about genuinely understanding down/distance and recognizing the concept of the entire defense, he very rarely got stung in those instances because offenses weren't set up or in position to take advantage of it when he did.

If both had their A games, Clements was better simply due to his out of this world athleticism. But Winfield ended up being a better player in the long run because of his superior understanding of both defenses and offenses and situational football.

Pound for pound Winfield was the best open field tackler I’ve ever seen. 

[Johnny Bravo]

On 7/13/2024 at 12:35 PM, mannc said:

Thurman was a great player, but the Super Bowl years never happen without Jim Kelly, who was, at the time, easily the best QB in the history of the franchise.  And as good as he was, I don't think Thurman was ever a first team All-Pro player.

Thurman was MVP of the league in 91

[Paup 1995MVP]

17 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Pound for pound Winfield was the best open field tackler I’ve ever seen. 

He was just an excellent football player.  Not HOF excellent.  But got the most out of his abilities.  Seemed like a good guy.  Just super solid.  Wish we had never let him go.  

 

I also loved Terrance McGhee.  Another super solid NFL player.  Got the most out of his ability.  Good team guy.  Great kick returner.  You just have to love guys who just bring their best week in and week out.