Logic Posted July 12 Posted July 12 1 hour ago, Paup 1995MVP said: Are you a big student of the entire NFL? I was watching hilites the other night on You Tube of the Chargers 1970 season. LOL. Love the music and John Facenda narrating the show. Absolutely. The thing that got me into the NFL as a kid was when the NFL Network would run marathons of the old NFL Films "Team Yearbooks" and "America's Greatest Games". The sound of Fascenda's voice, the dramatic music, the slow motion...I fell in love. Probably the most famous and well known example, but this absolutely cast a spell on me as a kid: As far as trying to educate myself about the game of football...I do my best. I'm somewhat of a completist, and I love knowing everything there is to know about the past, present, and future of the game. You show me a "Top 10" or "Top 100" list or historical football documentary of any kind and I'm devouring it. We also live in era where we are incredibly blessed by the wealth of old game footage and information available at the click of a mouse. Full games, player highlight packages, old broadcasts complete with the commercials, everything. One's ability to consume classic NFL is limited only by their appetite for it and their amount of free time. In recent years, the three books I enjoyed the most and found the most informative in terms of educating me about the history of professional football are listed below. I highly recommend all three! I like to read them during football season, on the commercial breaks during games, because I otherwise I pace nervously. 1 Quote
oldmanfan Posted July 12 Posted July 12 3 hours ago, Irv said: Like your list. I think you missed bad on CB. Byrd was a safety. You’re missing Winfield and Odomes? Butch Byrd was a CB. He and Booker Egerson were both great. Tre White was great. And Taron Johnson is a great slot CB. But after listing these I indicated I’d put Robert James in place of Taron. All 4 of these guys were better than Winfield or Odomes, although they both were very good. Quote
JP51 Posted July 13 Posted July 13 3 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said: I believe Maddox was more back in the Super Bowl years. But those numbers for Paup in 1995 were off the chart. He was a hell of a player for Green Bay and then the Bills. Too bad he took the money and left for the Jags. A great player. Not HOF great. But still had a really good career. An anecdote about Maddox. My mother used to work for the Western NY Blind Association as a social worker. She told me she helped one of Maddox's relatives who was blind. Said she met him, and he was a real nice guy. I am actually friends with him on FB he was the one who reminded me of the bruise bros they had a poster he is real down to earth Quote
Simon Posted July 13 Posted July 13 12 hours ago, Cvanvol7 said: Im very curious now to hear peoples opinions of Clements vs Winfield now after seeing the initial list. I always thought Winfield was far and away better than Clements Those two were an absolutely textbook example of the difference between a tough, cerebral CB and a great athlete playing CB. Nate Clements was absolutely one of the best pure athletes to ever put on a Bills uniform, imo. When he was at the top of his game he was arguably the best CB in the NFL for a stretch. Unfortunately he was either lazy and hated homework or he was just dumber than a chicken. This wasn't necessarily an issue against average OC/QB combinations because he was such a good athlete he could recover from almost any misstep. But when matched up against smart offenses that knew how to exploit mistakes and tendencies, he could be taken advantage of at times. While he was one of the few corners you'll ever see that could literally affect a scoreboard from that outside reactive position, he was never smart enough to do it consistently and because of it never reached his full potential. Winfield was nowhere near the athlete that Clements was, and frankly it wasn't even close. But his smarts and his instincts made him a more consistently reliable defender. He actually got beat over the top a lot because he had to gamble to impact the game, but because he was really savvy about genuinely understanding down/distance and recognizing the concept of the entire defense, he very rarely got stung in those instances because offenses weren't set up or in position to take advantage of it when he did. If both had their A games, Clements was better simply due to his out of this world athleticism. But Winfield ended up being a better player in the long run because of his superior understanding of both defenses and offenses and situational football. 2 Quote
Simon Posted July 13 Posted July 13 On 7/11/2024 at 10:25 AM, Logic said: I'm bored at work and absolutely refuse to get started on my Excel spreadsheets, so I decided to play the "Bills positional Mt Rushmore" game using the criteria cited. No one asked for this, but here it is anyway. Sorry, employer. Probably my favorite of all the lists, but one major quibble, and admittedly from a personal favorite perspective. Phat Pat Williams belongs on it; one of the most legitimately bad-ass sonofabitches to ever put on a Bills uniform, imo. 1 Quote
Dr.Sack Posted July 13 Posted July 13 I prefer the opposite of of Mt. Rushmore, the Marianas Trench: #1: K: Tyler Bass (12/17 FGs in playoffs, lower % than Scott Norwood (13/18). #2: QB: Nathan Peterman (worst QB in NFL history - 133 pass attempts in Buffalo, 13 interceptions 9.77% interception rate). #3: DE: Aaron Maybin (27 games 0 sacks - 1st round pick) #4: RB: Reggie Bush (terrible 12 carries -3 yards) 2 1 Quote
BillsPride12 Posted July 13 Posted July 13 3 hours ago, billybrew1 said: Mr. Ted Washington is THE best run stopper in NFL History! #1! The best! And he not limited as just a run stopper. He is in my top ten Bills all-time. i loved watching him play. And! And! If Marv Levy went out and got Jerry Ball for our D way back when, we would have won at least one Super Bowl! Wait was this ever a thing!? Were there rumors of the Bills trying to get Jerry Ball? I don't remember that but I was pretty young back then I remember I had a Jerry Ball football card and me and my friend used to call him Jelly Ball and thought that was so funny...the things we find amusing when we are kids Quote
Thurman#1 Posted July 13 Posted July 13 (edited) On 7/11/2024 at 10:20 PM, mushypeaches said: I've rewatched at least 75 games from 88-95 over the past few years, and these two players were arguably the WEAKEST links in our defenses over that era. Yes, there are those who will remind me that folks like James Williams and Leon Seals were starters during that time frame. But to consider both of them as worthy of inclusion as top Bills players at their position over 60+ years of history is laughable. Replace either of them with above average athletes in size and/or speed, and we might have won a title. I don't think that's hyperbole either. IMO you're significantly under-ranking and under-arguing on both Kelso and Wright. Wright had a ton of tackles, he was played very well against the pass and quite well against the run as well. He's under-rated. Having said that, I agree with you that Washington should be there. He was an absolute monster. My guess is that Marino doesn't think of Washington so much as a Bill, since he spent 2/3rds of his career elsewhere. But I think your argument is legit when you see that Washington spent six years here and Wright only 7. But Wright is 100% a Bill. That Bills D was built to beat the pass, as it had to be with Marino in our division. We were a terrific defense, good against the run but never great. We wanted to score a ton and make teams pass. I agree if we'd had a guy like Ted Washington there in the middle we'd have won one or two of those SBs. If we had made them. We might also have lost some games against the Fins and other teams with great QBs that we won having Wright being more disruptive. I'd rather have had Washington but that didn't mean Wright wasn't a good player. Kelso was a center fielder, but he was a good tackler and always in the right place. Kind of the same kind of player as Poyer and Hyde, smart as hell, always doing the right thing, not letting a lack of elite athleticism prevent him from being a very good player. Poyer and Hyde were better, but Kelso was quite good, always could be counted on. You can't hold being a center fielder type against him. That was the system he was in. He was good. Plenty of center fielder safety types didn't have his INT numbers or his success. Top four among Bills safeties is fair, I think, though Logic's top four safeties is also fair. Edited July 13 by Thurman#1 Quote
That's No Moon Posted July 13 Posted July 13 Mt. Rushmore has 4 people on it. Just 4. Who are your 4 for the entire franchise? Quote
QCity Posted July 13 Posted July 13 33 minutes ago, That's No Moon said: Mt. Rushmore has 4 people on it. Just 4. Who are your 4 for the entire franchise? There's been numerous threads on this. The consensus goes something like Smith, Kelly, Thomas, Allen and then the discussion gets completely derailed arguing about OJ. 1 Quote
Irv Posted July 13 Posted July 13 11 hours ago, oldmanfan said: Butch Byrd was a CB. He and Booker Egerson were both great. Tre White was great. And Taron Johnson is a great slot CB. But after listing these I indicated I’d put Robert James in place of Taron. All 4 of these guys were better than Winfield or Odomes, although they both were very good. Apologies. Age difference here. I was referring to Jarius Byrd. Quote
oldmanfan Posted July 13 Posted July 13 10 minutes ago, Irv said: Apologies. Age difference here. I was referring to Jarius Byrd. No problem. And Jairus deserves mention at safety. Quote
John Gianelli Posted July 13 Posted July 13 On 7/11/2024 at 9:35 AM, I'm Spartacus said: Mine: Defensive Tackle (nose too)....Tom Sestak, Fred Smerlas, Ted Washington, Ron McDole. Safety....George Saimes, Henry Jones, Jordan Poyer, Micah Hyde McDole was an end, wasn't he? 6 hours ago, QCity said: There's been numerous threads on this. The consensus goes something like Smith, Kelly, Thomas, Allen and then the discussion gets completely derailed arguing about OJ. Jack Kemp had terrible stats, but he led us to two consecutive championships and he had the heart of a lion. If Mt. Rushmore is for leaders. He's got to be up there. Quote
Ethan in Cleveland Posted July 13 Posted July 13 7 hours ago, That's No Moon said: Mt. Rushmore has 4 people on it. Just 4. Who are your 4 for the entire franchise? If you allow OJ then it is Smith OJ Thomas Allen Quote
Bill from NYC Posted July 13 Posted July 13 (edited) On 7/11/2024 at 10:25 AM, Logic said: OT House Ballard Will Wolford John Fina Dion Dawkins Sorry, but Jason Peters was better than any of those OTs and by a lagre margin imo. I will go a step further and say that he was easily one of the best players in team history. A certain first ballot HOFer. Edited July 13 by Bill from NYC 1 1 Quote
vincec Posted July 13 Posted July 13 On 7/12/2024 at 1:57 AM, ghostwriter said: Marv Levy Sean McDermott Lou Saban Wade Phillips Doesn’t Chuck Knox have to be ahead of Phillips? 1 Quote
Big Turk Posted July 13 Posted July 13 On 7/11/2024 at 12:45 PM, Ethan in Cleveland said: Milano is better player than Conlan ever was. In fact I'd list Sam Cowart and London Fletcher over Conlan. Nice to see Talley not make the list. Bryce Paup anyone? 1 Quote
mannc Posted July 13 Posted July 13 (edited) 10 hours ago, That's No Moon said: Mt. Rushmore has 4 people on it. Just 4. Who are your 4 for the entire franchise? It’s pretty clear-cut, IMO: OJ Simpson Bruce Smith Jim Kelly Josh Allen Edited July 13 by mannc Quote
ChronicAndKnuckles Posted July 13 Posted July 13 On 7/11/2024 at 9:35 AM, I'm Spartacus said: Mine: Defensive Tackle (nose too)....Tom Sestak, Fred Smerlas, Ted Washington, Ron McDole. Safety....George Saimes, Henry Jones, Jordan Poyer, Micah Hyde You think that Washington was better than Pat Williams or Kyle Williams ? 17 minutes ago, mannc said: It’s pretty clear-cut, IMO: OJ Simpson Bruce Smith Jim Kelly Josh Allen No Chris Kelsey proves your list is weak Quote
mannc Posted July 13 Posted July 13 24 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said: No Chris Kelsey proves your list is weak Maybe if we were to create an All-Lunch Pail Mt Rushmore… 1 Quote
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