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Joe Marino's Bills "Mt Rushmore"


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This week, Joe Marino from the Locked On Bills podcast had 2 episodes focused on the Bills "Mt Rushmore" or 4 best players at each position group in the team's history.

As a caveat, the criteria that he used only considered what these players did while playing for the Bills, not accounting for players like James Lofton & Terrelle Owens who were HOF'ers, but had relatively brief stints as a Bill.

 

The offensive edition was pretty solid, without a lot that you could legitimately quibble about at most position groups.  

 

My beef was with the defensive selections, as I was listening while driving yesterday afternoon, I shouted out a couple of choice phrases at two of them in particular:

 

Defensive Tackle - his last choice among the top 4 players was Jeff Wright, who played for the Bills for 7 seasons.  For those who remember, Wright was undersized for his role, especially in later seasons as O-Lines began to get a lot bigger.  He was a penetrator - and did get decent sack numbers for his position.  But he was significantly below average against the run - especially as you're playing a 3-4 front.  And we got absolutely destroyed on the ground vs the best teams and in the biggest games.  Teams knew that they could exploit Wright's lack of size and basically push the Bills around if they were committed to it.

 

Inexplicably, Marino chose Wright over Ted Washington - who in 6 seasons with the Bills was the obviously superior player, and arguably was the key catalyst for defensive improvement (and often dominance) when Wade Phillips took over from Walt Corey.  Washington wasn't the pass rushing force, but in my mind, it's not even close to who was the better player

 

Safety - his last choice here was Mark Kelso - who played 9 seasons with the Bills.  Kelso was a solid center fielder playing in an era where QB accuracy (and defensive rules) were a lot different from today's game.  He racked up a lot of INT's just by sitting back and catching overthrown deep balls.  So, a nice player, but not a game changer or someone that offenses game planned against.  Kelso was also very slight of frame, and thus not a great tackler, which again manifested itself on the biggest stages in games that the Bills got run over.

 

I've rewatched at least 75 games from 88-95 over the past few years, and these two players were arguably the WEAKEST links in our defenses over that era.  Yes, there are those who will remind me that folks like James Williams and Leon Seals were starters during that time frame.  But to consider both of them as worthy of inclusion as top Bills players at their position over 60+ years of history is laughable.  Replace either of them with above average athletes in size and/or speed, and we might have won a title.  I don't think that's hyperbole either.

 

 

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Jeff Wright? He'd be a decent 3 Tech but was not anywhere in the same league as Ted Washington, Fred Smerlas or Pat Williams. Honestly brutal pick.  I'd take George Saimes and Poyer over Kelso. Aaron  Williams would have been the best if he wasn't blindsided mugged by the thug Jarvis Landry. 

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6 minutes ago, I'm Spartacus said:

Mine:

Defensive Tackle (nose too)....Tom Sestak, Fred Smerlas, Ted Washington, Ron McDole.

 

Safety....George Saimes, Henry Jones, Jordan Poyer, Micah Hyde 

 

He had Sestak & Smerlas on the list plus Kyle Williams, with McDole, Pat Williams, and Washington as honorable mentions

He listed 6 safeties - noting Poyer & Hyde as a pair.  Henry Jones was an honorable mention

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I'm bored at work and absolutely refuse to get started on my Excel spreadsheets, so I decided to play the "Bills positional Mt Rushmore" game using the criteria cited. No one asked for this, but here it is anyway. Sorry, employer.



QB
Josh Allen
Jim Kelly

Jack Kemp

Joe Ferguson

 

RB
Thurman Thomas

OJ Simpson

Joe Cribbs

Fred Jackson

FB

Cookie Gilchrist
Sam Gash

Larry Centers
Jim Braxton

WR
Andre Reed
Eric Moulds
Elbert Dubenion
Stefon Diggs


TE
Ernie Warlick

Pete Metzelaars
Keith McKellar

Paul Costa

 

OT
House Ballard
Will Wolford
John Fina

Dion Dawkins

 

OG
Joe DeLamielleure

Billy Shaw
Ruben Brown

Jim Ritcher

 

C
Kent Hull

Al Bemiller
Mitch Morse

Eric Wood

 

DE
Bruce Smith

Aaron Schobel
Mario Williams
Phil Hansen

 

DT
Tom Sestak
Kyle Williams
Fred Smerlas
Mike Kadish

 

LB
Darryl Talley
Cornelius Bennett
Mike Stratton
Shane Conlan


CB
Butch Byrd
Booker Edgerson
Nate Odomes
Nate Clements

 

S
George Saimes
Micah Hyde
Jordan Poyer
Tony Greene
 

Edited by Logic
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5 minutes ago, Logic said:

I'm bored at work and absolutely refuse to get started on my Excel spreadsheets, so I decided to play the "Bills positional Mt Rushmore" game using the criteria cited. No one asked for this, but here it is anyway. Sorry, employer.



QB
Josh Allen
Jim Kelly

Jack Kemp

Joe Ferguson

 

RB
Thurman Thomas

OJ Simpson

Joe Cribbs

Fred Jackson

FB

Cookie Gilchrist
Sam Gash

Larry Centers
Jim Braxton

WR
Andre Reed
Eric Moulds
Elbert Dubenion
Stefon Diggs


TE
Ernie Warlick

Pete Metzelaars
Keith McKellar

Paul Costa

 

OT
House Ballard
Will Wolford
John Fina

Dion Dawkins

 

OG
Joe DeLamielleure

Billy Shaw
Ruben Brown

Jim Ritcher

 

C
Kent Hull

Al Bemiller
Mitch Morse

Eric Wood

 

DE
Bruce Smith

Aaron Schobel
Mario Williams
Phil Hansen

 

DT
Tom Sestak
Kyle Williams
Fred Smerlas
Mike Kadish

 

LB
Darryl Talley
Cornelius Bennett
Mike Stratton
Shane Conlan


CB
Butch Byrd
Booker Edgerson
Nate Odomes
Nate Clements

 

S
George Saimes
Micah Hyde
Jordan Poyer
Tony Greene
 


Matt Milano has to be on that LB at this point. 

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3 minutes ago, wppete said:

Matt Milano has to be on that LB at this point. 

No way does he unseat those 4, not yet at least.

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4 minutes ago, wppete said:


Matt Milano has to be on that LB at this point. 


Maybe if you list OLB and ILB separately. I listed them together, though, and I'm not sure who you'd realistically take off my list to include Milano.

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4 minutes ago, MJS said:

No way does he unseat those 4, not yet at least.

 

I think there's a legitimate case for Milano over Shane Conlan.  They've now played about an equal number of games as Bills and I would definitely say that Milano has been a more impactful player, especially in terms of splash plays.  Conlan was solid, but rarely spectacular, and I think that he had a lot more talented teammates around him as well, especially in the front 7

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1 hour ago, mushypeaches said:

This week, Joe Marino from the Locked On Bills podcast had 2 episodes focused on the Bills "Mt Rushmore" or 4 best players at each position group in the team's history.

As a caveat, the criteria that he used only considered what these players did while playing for the Bills, not accounting for players like James Lofton & Terrelle Owens who were HOF'ers, but had relatively brief stints as a Bill.

 

The offensive edition was pretty solid, without a lot that you could legitimately quibble about at most position groups.  

 

My beef was with the defensive selections, as I was listening while driving yesterday afternoon, I shouted out a couple of choice phrases at two of them in particular:

 

Defensive Tackle - his last choice among the top 4 players was Jeff Wright, who played for the Bills for 7 seasons.  For those who remember, Wright was undersized for his role, especially in later seasons as O-Lines began to get a lot bigger.  He was a penetrator - and did get decent sack numbers for his position.  But he was significantly below average against the run - especially as you're playing a 3-4 front.  And we got absolutely destroyed on the ground vs the best teams and in the biggest games.  Teams knew that they could exploit Wright's lack of size and basically push the Bills around if they were committed to it.

 

Inexplicably, Marino chose Wright over Ted Washington - who in 6 seasons with the Bills was the obviously superior player, and arguably was the key catalyst for defensive improvement (and often dominance) when Wade Phillips took over from Walt Corey.  Washington wasn't the pass rushing force, but in my mind, it's not even close to who was the better player

 

Safety - his last choice here was Mark Kelso - who played 9 seasons with the Bills.  Kelso was a solid center fielder playing in an era where QB accuracy (and defensive rules) were a lot different from today's game.  He racked up a lot of INT's just by sitting back and catching overthrown deep balls.  So, a nice player, but not a game changer or someone that offenses game planned against.  Kelso was also very slight of frame, and thus not a great tackler, which again manifested itself on the biggest stages in games that the Bills got run over.

 

I've rewatched at least 75 games from 88-95 over the past few years, and these two players were arguably the WEAKEST links in our defenses over that era.  Yes, there are those who will remind me that folks like James Williams and Leon Seals were starters during that time frame.  But to consider both of them as worthy of inclusion as top Bills players at their position over 60+ years of history is laughable.  Replace either of them with above average athletes in size and/or speed, and we might have won a title.  I don't think that's hyperbole either.

 

 

 

I'd even vote Sam Adams was better than Wright.

5 minutes ago, mushypeaches said:

 

I think there's a legitimate case for Milano over Shane Conlan.  They've now played about an equal number of games as Bills and I would definitely say that Milano has been a more impactful player, especially in terms of splash plays.  Conlan was solid, but rarely spectacular, and I think that he had a lot more talented teammates around him as well, especially in the front 7

 

It was a different game back then and Conlan was a perfect player for that era.

 

Also Bryce Paup might need consideration as he led the NFL in sacks with us(something even Bruce Smith never accomplished), was 1st team All-Pro, went to 3 PB's and won DPOY, although he wasn't here too long tho

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Marino is off-seasoning hard. TBF making lists like this is pretty much what every NFL podcaster is doing. Nothing happening this time of year - and that’s the best case scenario for any NFL team. No complaints from me. 

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23 minutes ago, mushypeaches said:

I think there's a legitimate case for Milano over Shane Conlan.  They've now played about an equal number of games as Bills and I would definitely say that Milano has been a more impactful player, especially in terms of splash plays.  Conlan was solid, but rarely spectacular, and I think that he had a lot more talented teammates around him as well, especially in the front 7

I think Milano's 2022 season was better than any single season for Shane Conlan, if you can really compare them and the eras they played. But Conlan has the better body of work, in my opinion. Plus, all the injuries with Milano kind of puts a damper on things.

 

But, if Milano puts together another couple of impactful seasons, he definately should be considered.

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1 hour ago, Logic said:

I'm bored at work and absolutely refuse to get started on my Excel spreadsheets, so I decided to play the "Bills positional Mt Rushmore" game using the criteria cited. No one asked for this, but here it is anyway. Sorry, employer.



QB
Josh Allen
Jim Kelly

Jack Kemp

Joe Ferguson

 

RB
Thurman Thomas

OJ Simpson

Joe Cribbs

Fred Jackson

FB

Cookie Gilchrist
Sam Gash

Larry Centers
Jim Braxton

WR
Andre Reed
Eric Moulds
Elbert Dubenion
Stefon Diggs


TE
Ernie Warlick

Pete Metzelaars
Keith McKellar

Paul Costa

 

OT
House Ballard
Will Wolford
John Fina

Dion Dawkins

 

OG
Joe DeLamielleure

Billy Shaw
Ruben Brown

Jim Ritcher

 

C
Kent Hull

Al Bemiller
Mitch Morse

Eric Wood

 

DE
Bruce Smith

Aaron Schobel
Mario Williams
Phil Hansen

 

DT
Tom Sestak
Kyle Williams
Fred Smerlas
Mike Kadish

 

LB
Darryl Talley
Cornelius Bennett
Mike Stratton
Shane Conlan


CB
Butch Byrd
Booker Edgerson
Nate Odomes
Nate Clements

 

S
George Saimes
Micah Hyde
Jordan Poyer
Tony Greene
 

No Reggie McKenzie? 

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3 hours ago, mushypeaches said:

This week, Joe Marino from the Locked On Bills podcast had 2 episodes focused on the Bills "Mt Rushmore" or 4 best players at each position group in the team's history.

As a caveat, the criteria that he used only considered what these players did while playing for the Bills, not accounting for players like James Lofton & Terrelle Owens who were HOF'ers, but had relatively brief stints as a Bill.

 

The offensive edition was pretty solid, without a lot that you could legitimately quibble about at most position groups.  

 

My beef was with the defensive selections, as I was listening while driving yesterday afternoon, I shouted out a couple of choice phrases at two of them in particular:

 

Defensive Tackle - his last choice among the top 4 players was Jeff Wright, who played for the Bills for 7 seasons.  For those who remember, Wright was undersized for his role, especially in later seasons as O-Lines began to get a lot bigger.  He was a penetrator - and did get decent sack numbers for his position.  But he was significantly below average against the run - especially as you're playing a 3-4 front.  And we got absolutely destroyed on the ground vs the best teams and in the biggest games.  Teams knew that they could exploit Wright's lack of size and basically push the Bills around if they were committed to it.

 

Inexplicably, Marino chose Wright over Ted Washington - who in 6 seasons with the Bills was the obviously superior player, and arguably was the key catalyst for defensive improvement (and often dominance) when Wade Phillips took over from Walt Corey.  Washington wasn't the pass rushing force, but in my mind, it's not even close to who was the better player

 

Safety - his last choice here was Mark Kelso - who played 9 seasons with the Bills.  Kelso was a solid center fielder playing in an era where QB accuracy (and defensive rules) were a lot different from today's game.  He racked up a lot of INT's just by sitting back and catching overthrown deep balls.  So, a nice player, but not a game changer or someone that offenses game planned against.  Kelso was also very slight of frame, and thus not a great tackler, which again manifested itself on the biggest stages in games that the Bills got run over.

 

I've rewatched at least 75 games from 88-95 over the past few years, and these two players were arguably the WEAKEST links in our defenses over that era.  Yes, there are those who will remind me that folks like James Williams and Leon Seals were starters during that time frame.  But to consider both of them as worthy of inclusion as top Bills players at their position over 60+ years of history is laughable.  Replace either of them with above average athletes in size and/or speed, and we might have won a title.  I don't think that's hyperbole either.

 

 

There's a bunch of DTs I can name on my Bills Mt Rushmore before I get to the run over Jeff Wright. Picking Jeff Wright offer Teddy is a borderline crime! Joe Marino I lost a lot of respect for your football acumen with that statement. 

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37 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

No Reggie McKenzie? 


It's always hard with these lists, because anyone you'd knock off the list to add someone new is also a worthwhile candidate.

Brown, Shaw, and Joe D are all locks IMO. So it comes down to McKenzie vs Ritcher.

McKenzie played 11 seasons and was a one time All-Pro.

Ritcher played 14 seasons and was a two time Pro Bowler.

Both guys seem worthy of inclusion. Close your eyes and throw a dart.

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I thought it was interesting that he didn't even mention Mario Williams in the "Honorable Mention" section for DE's.

 

Mario had 44.5 sacks in 4 seasons ... including a 10.5, 13, and 14.5 sack season ... to go along with great run defense.

 

Instead, he picked:

Ron McDole (34 sacks in 8 seasons in Buffalo)

Ben Williams (52 sacks in 10 seasons)

 

I guess he went for quantity over quality... weird.

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At this point you just leave several spots blank for TE. Warlock is the only guy that is even in the discussion.

 

As for Jeff Wright,  he doesn't belong on any list unless if has something to do with mustaches. Will be controversial but Marcell Dareus was a better player than Wright ever was.  No idea how he left Pat Williams off the list. 

 

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