mushypeaches Posted July 11 Posted July 11 This week, Joe Marino from the Locked On Bills podcast had 2 episodes focused on the Bills "Mt Rushmore" or 4 best players at each position group in the team's history. As a caveat, the criteria that he used only considered what these players did while playing for the Bills, not accounting for players like James Lofton & Terrelle Owens who were HOF'ers, but had relatively brief stints as a Bill. The offensive edition was pretty solid, without a lot that you could legitimately quibble about at most position groups. My beef was with the defensive selections, as I was listening while driving yesterday afternoon, I shouted out a couple of choice phrases at two of them in particular: Defensive Tackle - his last choice among the top 4 players was Jeff Wright, who played for the Bills for 7 seasons. For those who remember, Wright was undersized for his role, especially in later seasons as O-Lines began to get a lot bigger. He was a penetrator - and did get decent sack numbers for his position. But he was significantly below average against the run - especially as you're playing a 3-4 front. And we got absolutely destroyed on the ground vs the best teams and in the biggest games. Teams knew that they could exploit Wright's lack of size and basically push the Bills around if they were committed to it. Inexplicably, Marino chose Wright over Ted Washington - who in 6 seasons with the Bills was the obviously superior player, and arguably was the key catalyst for defensive improvement (and often dominance) when Wade Phillips took over from Walt Corey. Washington wasn't the pass rushing force, but in my mind, it's not even close to who was the better player Safety - his last choice here was Mark Kelso - who played 9 seasons with the Bills. Kelso was a solid center fielder playing in an era where QB accuracy (and defensive rules) were a lot different from today's game. He racked up a lot of INT's just by sitting back and catching overthrown deep balls. So, a nice player, but not a game changer or someone that offenses game planned against. Kelso was also very slight of frame, and thus not a great tackler, which again manifested itself on the biggest stages in games that the Bills got run over. I've rewatched at least 75 games from 88-95 over the past few years, and these two players were arguably the WEAKEST links in our defenses over that era. Yes, there are those who will remind me that folks like James Williams and Leon Seals were starters during that time frame. But to consider both of them as worthy of inclusion as top Bills players at their position over 60+ years of history is laughable. Replace either of them with above average athletes in size and/or speed, and we might have won a title. I don't think that's hyperbole either. 3 5 1 Quote
I'm Spartacus Posted July 11 Posted July 11 Mine: Defensive Tackle (nose too)....Tom Sestak, Fred Smerlas, Ted Washington, Ron McDole. Safety....George Saimes, Henry Jones, Jordan Poyer, Micah Hyde 3 Quote
Green Lightning Posted July 11 Posted July 11 Jeff Wright? He'd be a decent 3 Tech but was not anywhere in the same league as Ted Washington, Fred Smerlas or Pat Williams. Honestly brutal pick. I'd take George Saimes and Poyer over Kelso. Aaron Williams would have been the best if he wasn't blindsided mugged by the thug Jarvis Landry. 2 2 1 Quote
mushypeaches Posted July 11 Author Posted July 11 6 minutes ago, I'm Spartacus said: Mine: Defensive Tackle (nose too)....Tom Sestak, Fred Smerlas, Ted Washington, Ron McDole. Safety....George Saimes, Henry Jones, Jordan Poyer, Micah Hyde He had Sestak & Smerlas on the list plus Kyle Williams, with McDole, Pat Williams, and Washington as honorable mentions He listed 6 safeties - noting Poyer & Hyde as a pair. Henry Jones was an honorable mention Quote
Royale with Cheese Posted July 11 Posted July 11 Kyle Williams Ted Washington Tom Stestak Fred Smerlas 1 Quote
Logic Posted July 11 Posted July 11 (edited) I'm bored at work and absolutely refuse to get started on my Excel spreadsheets, so I decided to play the "Bills positional Mt Rushmore" game using the criteria cited. No one asked for this, but here it is anyway. Sorry, employer. QB Josh Allen Jim Kelly Jack Kemp Joe Ferguson RB Thurman Thomas OJ Simpson Joe Cribbs Fred Jackson FB Cookie Gilchrist Sam Gash Larry Centers Jim Braxton WR Andre Reed Eric Moulds Elbert Dubenion Stefon Diggs TE Ernie Warlick Pete Metzelaars Keith McKellar Paul Costa OT House Ballard Will Wolford John Fina Dion Dawkins OG Joe DeLamielleure Billy Shaw Ruben Brown Jim Ritcher C Kent Hull Al Bemiller Mitch Morse Eric Wood DE Bruce Smith Aaron Schobel Mario Williams Phil Hansen DT Tom Sestak Kyle Williams Fred Smerlas Mike Kadish LB Darryl Talley Cornelius Bennett Mike Stratton Shane Conlan CB Butch Byrd Booker Edgerson Nate Odomes Nate Clements S George Saimes Micah Hyde Jordan Poyer Tony Greene Edited July 11 by Logic 9 Quote
wppete Posted July 11 Posted July 11 5 minutes ago, Logic said: I'm bored at work and absolutely refuse to get started on my Excel spreadsheets, so I decided to play the "Bills positional Mt Rushmore" game using the criteria cited. No one asked for this, but here it is anyway. Sorry, employer. QB Josh Allen Jim Kelly Jack Kemp Joe Ferguson RB Thurman Thomas OJ Simpson Joe Cribbs Fred Jackson FB Cookie Gilchrist Sam Gash Larry Centers Jim Braxton WR Andre Reed Eric Moulds Elbert Dubenion Stefon Diggs TE Ernie Warlick Pete Metzelaars Keith McKellar Paul Costa OT House Ballard Will Wolford John Fina Dion Dawkins OG Joe DeLamielleure Billy Shaw Ruben Brown Jim Ritcher C Kent Hull Al Bemiller Mitch Morse Eric Wood DE Bruce Smith Aaron Schobel Mario Williams Phil Hansen DT Tom Sestak Kyle Williams Fred Smerlas Mike Kadish LB Darryl Talley Cornelius Bennett Mike Stratton Shane Conlan CB Butch Byrd Booker Edgerson Nate Odomes Nate Clements S George Saimes Micah Hyde Jordan Poyer Tony Greene Matt Milano has to be on that LB at this point. 1 2 6 2 Quote
MJS Posted July 11 Posted July 11 3 minutes ago, wppete said: Matt Milano has to be on that LB at this point. No way does he unseat those 4, not yet at least. 2 1 1 Quote
Logic Posted July 11 Posted July 11 4 minutes ago, wppete said: Matt Milano has to be on that LB at this point. Maybe if you list OLB and ILB separately. I listed them together, though, and I'm not sure who you'd realistically take off my list to include Milano. Quote
mushypeaches Posted July 11 Author Posted July 11 4 minutes ago, MJS said: No way does he unseat those 4, not yet at least. I think there's a legitimate case for Milano over Shane Conlan. They've now played about an equal number of games as Bills and I would definitely say that Milano has been a more impactful player, especially in terms of splash plays. Conlan was solid, but rarely spectacular, and I think that he had a lot more talented teammates around him as well, especially in the front 7 6 Quote
Big Turk Posted July 11 Posted July 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, mushypeaches said: This week, Joe Marino from the Locked On Bills podcast had 2 episodes focused on the Bills "Mt Rushmore" or 4 best players at each position group in the team's history. As a caveat, the criteria that he used only considered what these players did while playing for the Bills, not accounting for players like James Lofton & Terrelle Owens who were HOF'ers, but had relatively brief stints as a Bill. The offensive edition was pretty solid, without a lot that you could legitimately quibble about at most position groups. My beef was with the defensive selections, as I was listening while driving yesterday afternoon, I shouted out a couple of choice phrases at two of them in particular: Defensive Tackle - his last choice among the top 4 players was Jeff Wright, who played for the Bills for 7 seasons. For those who remember, Wright was undersized for his role, especially in later seasons as O-Lines began to get a lot bigger. He was a penetrator - and did get decent sack numbers for his position. But he was significantly below average against the run - especially as you're playing a 3-4 front. And we got absolutely destroyed on the ground vs the best teams and in the biggest games. Teams knew that they could exploit Wright's lack of size and basically push the Bills around if they were committed to it. Inexplicably, Marino chose Wright over Ted Washington - who in 6 seasons with the Bills was the obviously superior player, and arguably was the key catalyst for defensive improvement (and often dominance) when Wade Phillips took over from Walt Corey. Washington wasn't the pass rushing force, but in my mind, it's not even close to who was the better player Safety - his last choice here was Mark Kelso - who played 9 seasons with the Bills. Kelso was a solid center fielder playing in an era where QB accuracy (and defensive rules) were a lot different from today's game. He racked up a lot of INT's just by sitting back and catching overthrown deep balls. So, a nice player, but not a game changer or someone that offenses game planned against. Kelso was also very slight of frame, and thus not a great tackler, which again manifested itself on the biggest stages in games that the Bills got run over. I've rewatched at least 75 games from 88-95 over the past few years, and these two players were arguably the WEAKEST links in our defenses over that era. Yes, there are those who will remind me that folks like James Williams and Leon Seals were starters during that time frame. But to consider both of them as worthy of inclusion as top Bills players at their position over 60+ years of history is laughable. Replace either of them with above average athletes in size and/or speed, and we might have won a title. I don't think that's hyperbole either. I'd even vote Sam Adams was better than Wright. 5 minutes ago, mushypeaches said: I think there's a legitimate case for Milano over Shane Conlan. They've now played about an equal number of games as Bills and I would definitely say that Milano has been a more impactful player, especially in terms of splash plays. Conlan was solid, but rarely spectacular, and I think that he had a lot more talented teammates around him as well, especially in the front 7 It was a different game back then and Conlan was a perfect player for that era. Also Bryce Paup might need consideration as he led the NFL in sacks with us(something even Bruce Smith never accomplished), was 1st team All-Pro, went to 3 PB's and won DPOY, although he wasn't here too long tho Edited July 11 by Big Turk 2 Quote
BarleyNY Posted July 11 Posted July 11 Marino is off-seasoning hard. TBF making lists like this is pretty much what every NFL podcaster is doing. Nothing happening this time of year - and that’s the best case scenario for any NFL team. No complaints from me. 1 Quote
MJS Posted July 11 Posted July 11 23 minutes ago, mushypeaches said: I think there's a legitimate case for Milano over Shane Conlan. They've now played about an equal number of games as Bills and I would definitely say that Milano has been a more impactful player, especially in terms of splash plays. Conlan was solid, but rarely spectacular, and I think that he had a lot more talented teammates around him as well, especially in the front 7 I think Milano's 2022 season was better than any single season for Shane Conlan, if you can really compare them and the eras they played. But Conlan has the better body of work, in my opinion. Plus, all the injuries with Milano kind of puts a damper on things. But, if Milano puts together another couple of impactful seasons, he definately should be considered. 1 Quote
SoCal Deek Posted July 11 Posted July 11 1 hour ago, Logic said: I'm bored at work and absolutely refuse to get started on my Excel spreadsheets, so I decided to play the "Bills positional Mt Rushmore" game using the criteria cited. No one asked for this, but here it is anyway. Sorry, employer. QB Josh Allen Jim Kelly Jack Kemp Joe Ferguson RB Thurman Thomas OJ Simpson Joe Cribbs Fred Jackson FB Cookie Gilchrist Sam Gash Larry Centers Jim Braxton WR Andre Reed Eric Moulds Elbert Dubenion Stefon Diggs TE Ernie Warlick Pete Metzelaars Keith McKellar Paul Costa OT House Ballard Will Wolford John Fina Dion Dawkins OG Joe DeLamielleure Billy Shaw Ruben Brown Jim Ritcher C Kent Hull Al Bemiller Mitch Morse Eric Wood DE Bruce Smith Aaron Schobel Mario Williams Phil Hansen DT Tom Sestak Kyle Williams Fred Smerlas Mike Kadish LB Darryl Talley Cornelius Bennett Mike Stratton Shane Conlan CB Butch Byrd Booker Edgerson Nate Odomes Nate Clements S George Saimes Micah Hyde Jordan Poyer Tony Greene No Reggie McKenzie? 1 Quote
NastyNateSoldiers Posted July 11 Posted July 11 3 hours ago, mushypeaches said: This week, Joe Marino from the Locked On Bills podcast had 2 episodes focused on the Bills "Mt Rushmore" or 4 best players at each position group in the team's history. As a caveat, the criteria that he used only considered what these players did while playing for the Bills, not accounting for players like James Lofton & Terrelle Owens who were HOF'ers, but had relatively brief stints as a Bill. The offensive edition was pretty solid, without a lot that you could legitimately quibble about at most position groups. My beef was with the defensive selections, as I was listening while driving yesterday afternoon, I shouted out a couple of choice phrases at two of them in particular: Defensive Tackle - his last choice among the top 4 players was Jeff Wright, who played for the Bills for 7 seasons. For those who remember, Wright was undersized for his role, especially in later seasons as O-Lines began to get a lot bigger. He was a penetrator - and did get decent sack numbers for his position. But he was significantly below average against the run - especially as you're playing a 3-4 front. And we got absolutely destroyed on the ground vs the best teams and in the biggest games. Teams knew that they could exploit Wright's lack of size and basically push the Bills around if they were committed to it. Inexplicably, Marino chose Wright over Ted Washington - who in 6 seasons with the Bills was the obviously superior player, and arguably was the key catalyst for defensive improvement (and often dominance) when Wade Phillips took over from Walt Corey. Washington wasn't the pass rushing force, but in my mind, it's not even close to who was the better player Safety - his last choice here was Mark Kelso - who played 9 seasons with the Bills. Kelso was a solid center fielder playing in an era where QB accuracy (and defensive rules) were a lot different from today's game. He racked up a lot of INT's just by sitting back and catching overthrown deep balls. So, a nice player, but not a game changer or someone that offenses game planned against. Kelso was also very slight of frame, and thus not a great tackler, which again manifested itself on the biggest stages in games that the Bills got run over. I've rewatched at least 75 games from 88-95 over the past few years, and these two players were arguably the WEAKEST links in our defenses over that era. Yes, there are those who will remind me that folks like James Williams and Leon Seals were starters during that time frame. But to consider both of them as worthy of inclusion as top Bills players at their position over 60+ years of history is laughable. Replace either of them with above average athletes in size and/or speed, and we might have won a title. I don't think that's hyperbole either. There's a bunch of DTs I can name on my Bills Mt Rushmore before I get to the run over Jeff Wright. Picking Jeff Wright offer Teddy is a borderline crime! Joe Marino I lost a lot of respect for your football acumen with that statement. Quote
Ethan in Cleveland Posted July 11 Posted July 11 2 hours ago, MJS said: No way does he unseat those 4, not yet at least. Milano is better player than Conlan ever was. In fact I'd list Sam Cowart and London Fletcher over Conlan. Nice to see Talley not make the list. 2 1 1 Quote
Logic Posted July 11 Posted July 11 37 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: No Reggie McKenzie? It's always hard with these lists, because anyone you'd knock off the list to add someone new is also a worthwhile candidate. Brown, Shaw, and Joe D are all locks IMO. So it comes down to McKenzie vs Ritcher. McKenzie played 11 seasons and was a one time All-Pro. Ritcher played 14 seasons and was a two time Pro Bowler. Both guys seem worthy of inclusion. Close your eyes and throw a dart. 1 Quote
Rigotz Posted July 11 Posted July 11 I thought it was interesting that he didn't even mention Mario Williams in the "Honorable Mention" section for DE's. Mario had 44.5 sacks in 4 seasons ... including a 10.5, 13, and 14.5 sack season ... to go along with great run defense. Instead, he picked: Ron McDole (34 sacks in 8 seasons in Buffalo) Ben Williams (52 sacks in 10 seasons) I guess he went for quantity over quality... weird. 1 Quote
Ethan in Cleveland Posted July 11 Posted July 11 At this point you just leave several spots blank for TE. Warlock is the only guy that is even in the discussion. As for Jeff Wright, he doesn't belong on any list unless if has something to do with mustaches. Will be controversial but Marcell Dareus was a better player than Wright ever was. No idea how he left Pat Williams off the list. Quote
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