The Giants oline last year was historically bad

[Mikie2times]

It's very difficult to evaluate our pass blocking with Allen. He leaves the pocket so quickly. A lot of people say look! He avoided a sack! But he's bailing early in many situations because he trusts what he can do with his legs and in a broken play more than hanging in the pocket. Most QB's don't even get to make that choice. Given our improvement YoY it stands to reason the line was much better.  

[Captain Hindsight]

51 minutes ago, Billy Claude said:

 

That Jones was sacked at about the same rate as UDFA Tommy Devito is not a good look, especially as Devito was blitzed more and had a more make-shift line to deal with.

Oh it’s not good. I’m not saying it is. Jones has plenty of issues, but I’d like to see him on a team with a decent o line and a respectable cast of weapons 

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

It's very difficult to evaluate our pass blocking with Allen. He leaves the pocket so quickly. A lot of people say look! He avoided a sack! But he's bailing early in many situations because he trusts what he can do with his legs and in a broken play more than hanging in the pocket. Most QB's don't even get to make that choice. Given our improvement YoY it stands to reason the line was much better.  

I’ve definitely seen him bail from clean pockets at times, which also messes up the timing of the routes. Not that we had receivers that could always be counted on to get open if he stuck it out and waited for the route(s) to develop, but Josh brought some of that pressure onto himself.
 

If there’s one thing I’d love to see him improve in his game, it’s the pre-snap processing, immediately knowing where to go with the ball if the defense gives you a certain look and stays in it. I think if he were to elevate that aspect of his game, the Mahomes/Allen debate would be more fruitful - and this is with the acknowledgment that Mahomes isn’t the best pre-snap processor, he just makes less mistakes than Josh and is willing to hang in the pocket longer, or scramble around like a squirrel until a guy pops open.

[Einstein]

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Bills do anything good…

 

Bills fans - “Josh Allen Josh Allen Josh Allen.”

 

 

 

And rightfully so.

 

https://youtu.be/9cN9Ay7EmZY?si=V-tQWk22fSGzNn9-

 

[Einstein]

 

I do agree that the line has gotten better, as Gunnar mentioned. But there were still entire games last year where if it weren’t for Allen, there have been half a dozen sacks.

 

I also fear what will happen with McGovern switching positions and Morse leaving.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

Buffalos line was solid AF. Not an elite unit, but good enough to win and produce a 1K rusher. I only expect them to get better moving the pile w/ McGovern manning the center position and Torrence going into his 2nd year. They might see a drop off in pass pro, but I can live w/ that. This is the most excited I’ve been in years. Getting rid of Dorsey and giving Brady a whole off-season is huge. 

[stuvian]

seeing the Giants on Hard Knocks will be like seeing the Kardashians on Masterpiece Theatre

[ghostwriter]

Hopefully they bring Daboll back after this season.

[Beck Water]

16 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Jones only played 6 games last year but he was sacked 30 times. I’m higher in jones than most. Dude is tough as nails and a good athlete. He has made some really impressive plays in his career and besides Barkley, who had his own injury history, been surrounded by ***** talent. 
 

When Isiah Hodgins, who was on a PS a few weeks earlier, becomes your best WR, that’s a serious issue. They finally have Nabers this year which should help. Jones may not be the guy, but the giants have given him very little to work with in his career 

 

I think that Jones has the pocket awareness of a stoned snail.  And that's a problem.

 

To be fair, Isaiah Hodgins wasn't their best receiver in 2022, and they grabbed him up because Sterling Shepard, Wan'dale Robinson, and finally Darius Slayton (who is their best receiver) was playing hurt. 

 

However and to your point, when the team's best receiver is 26 and has never had more than 50 receptions or exceeded 800 receiving yards, that is a problem.

8 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Buffalos line was solid AF. Not an elite unit, but good enough to win and produce a 1K rusher. I only expect them to get better moving the pile w/ McGovern manning the center position and Torrence going into his 2nd year. They might see a drop off in pass pro, but I can live w/ that. This is the most excited I’ve been in years. Getting rid of Dorsey and giving Brady a whole off-season is huge. 

 

I can't. 

Why can you "live with" a drop off in protecting the only true and demonstrated "freakazoid" on the offense and one of the best players on the team?

 

The Bills didn't have the fewest sacks in the league because their OL is brilliant and can afford Allen great protection if they drop off a bit, they had the fewest sacks because of Allen's ability to extend the play, move out of trouble, and scramble

[JP51]

On 7/3/2024 at 8:58 PM, 78thealltimegreat said:

I don’t know how much of that was Daniel Jones and lack of pocket awareness or they are just bad…also Buffalo was pretty good.  
 

 

Combination of both... JA17 clearly is more capable of extending plays with his legs and avoiding sacks. In fact, his ability to see a coverage and run early when there is a gap is a tool that helps our OL immensely.  I do not think Daniel Jones has this... or at least not at Allens level. I also think their OL was a bit lack luster last year and of course had to manage with multiple QBs 

[H2o]

Daniel Jones, Devito, and whoever else they played last year are all meh at best. Yes, the OL was terrible for the Giants. We all knew this. But the OL wasn't done any favors by subpar QB play. They also had a ton of injuries up front and were dumpster-diving to fill holes. That contributed as well. 

 

For us, Allen makes the OL look better than they really are. He has since his arrival. This isn't the same same crap show we have seen previously, but we don't have the Chiefs OL, or an OL like the Eagles had, or one of the other top groups. We have an overall decent group, with a couple better than the rest, that Allen can work with better than the previous groups. 

 

Dawkins is a good LT. McGovern was solid at LG last year and huge upgrade over Saffold. Moving him to C is..... I don't like the idea. I'd rather give those reps to Van Pran. That leaves who at LG? Edwards? Are we confident in that? I don't know. Seems like a lot of question marks up front this year. I like Torrence at RG. He was one of the players I wanted us to draft in 2023, we did, and he played solid for a rookie. Now on to Spencer Brown. We can all agree he was better last year. He's good in the run game and likes to maul people. His pass pro is still lacking at times, getting caught off balance by countermoves and not being able to get out quick enough against speed rushers. Hopefully, another healthy off-season continues his development and he is the bookend we hope for. 

 

We have a tough schedule this year. A lot of good teams. Teams with good interior defenders. I hope these moves on the OL shake out. If they don't, the season won't be pretty and Allen will be out here running for his life again.  

[Johnny Bravo]

On 7/4/2024 at 6:36 AM, Matt_In_NH said:

Using purely sacks is not a great indicator of how good or bad the OL performance is.  How long does the QB hold the ball, does the QB get out of would be sacks?

You’re right that there are other factors to consider, but when a team gives up 85 sacks you can draw a conclusion about the quality of the O-Line’s play.

[YattaOkasan]

On 7/4/2024 at 9:56 AM, Einstein said:

 

We were bottom 10 in time-to-throw last season and bottom 5 in pocket time.

Top 5 in % pressures responsible to O line. 78% iirc from locked on pod last week. I think blitzes are a pretty good reason for both of those. 

[Matt_In_NH]

52 minutes ago, Johnny Bravo said:

You’re right that there are other factors to consider, but when a team gives up 85 sacks you can draw a conclusion about the quality of the O-Line’s play.

oh I agree, 85 sacks is so high it is enough to say the line is bad.....there was discussion of the Bills line and others which is what drove the comment   

[Logic]

As I learned on Hard Knocks last night, the 2023 Giants offense also scored the least points of any Giants team since 1979!

When you consider how the NFL is set up to promote scoring these days and the fact that teams play one more game per season now than they did then...I thought that was a pretty shocking statistic.

[Saxum]

On 7/4/2024 at 4:54 PM, Captain Hindsight said:

Oh it’s not good. I’m not saying it is. Jones has plenty of issues, but I’d like to see him on a team with a decent o line and a respectable cast of weapons 

 

It is not likely to happen with current QB contact.  When QB makes that much he needs to start paying fines to OL giving cheap shots on defenders to keep him on his feet.

[hondo in seattle]

On 7/3/2024 at 6:50 PM, Einstein said:

Josh Allen bailed the line out of numerous sacks.

 

Allen avoided 75 sacks over 2021 and 2022 alone. Thats second most in the NFL.

 

Last year, only 10% of the QB pressures the line gave up resulted in a sack (because of Allen’s mobility).

 

 

 

I agree.  Despite allowing the fewest sacks in the NFL this past season, the OL was not elite.

 

I think if an analytics guy wants to devise a new passer rating system, they need to factor in the ability to avoid sacks and complete passes while under pressure.  It's easy to perform well as a QB if you're in a clean pocket most of the time and simply take the sack when you're not.   That's not Josh Allen.  

 

While the picks last season were a legit cause for concern, I think some of Josh's critics overemphasized the turnovers while underappreciating the bad plays that didn't happen when Josh avoided a sack.    

[Royale with Cheese]

On 7/4/2024 at 9:47 AM, Einstein said:

 

Allen had the 4th lowest pocket time of any starting QB in the NFL last season. 2.3 seconds.

 

He is one of the most blitzed QB's in the last few years.  

[TBBills Fan]

The Giants FO is making it known this is Daniel Jones last chance.  Get ahead of it now so they will hopefully be there to rebuild without him if he can't get it done

[ganesh]

On 7/4/2024 at 4:58 PM, Captain Hindsight said:

Jones only played 6 games last year but he was sacked 30 times. I’m higher in jones than most. Dude is tough as nails and a good athlete. He has made some really impressive plays in his career and besides Barkley, who had his own injury history, been surrounded by ***** talent. 
 

When Isiah Hodgins, who was on a PS a few weeks earlier, becomes your best WR, that’s a serious issue. They finally have Nabers this year which should help. Jones may not be the guy, but the giants have given him very little to work with in his career 

and yet their HC Daboll won the coach of the years honor.