How close is Allen to Mahomes if all things were equal?

[Kirby Jackson]

I voted Mahomes because his resume supports it. He’s won 3 Super Bowls since he became a starting QB 6 seasons ago. It’s hard for me to say Allen would have done more with the same situation.

 

With that being said, I believe that Josh Allen is the most dynamic player in the NFL. He’s capable of doing things no one else is. Allen is closer to Mahomes than whoever is 3 (Lamar/Burrow/etc) is to Allen. 

[SaulGoodman]

5 hours ago, Success said:

 

You picked one game a few years ago for proof that Mahomes carries his team as much as Allen?

 

No. There was an entire paragraph after that. 
 

And where’s the proof of the opposite? 

[machine gun kelly]

Mahomes just by his record is #1, but Allen is a close 2nd.  I’d prefer Allen is tough and dynamic.

[BillMafia716ix]

Allen needs to start making throws when the game is on the line. Thats the biggest difference between the two. Mahomes always seems to make that game winning play when his team needs it. With Allen its always an overthrow, miscommunication with the WR or situation where he simply doesn’t see the open WR. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Allen needs to start making throws when the game is on the line. Thats the biggest difference between the two. Mahomes always seems to make that game winning play when his team needs it. With Allen its always an overthrow, miscommunication with the WR or situation where he simply doesn’t see the open WR. 

 

What the flip?

 

- Allen has 19 game winning drives in 94 career games.

 

- Mahomes has 16 game winning drives in 96 career games

 

Allen has more game winning drives and throws than Mahomes, despite playing less games.

 

Some of you say Allen gets too much respect. I say he doesn’t get enough.

[Gregg]

19 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

What the flip?

 

- Allen has 19 game winning drives in 94 career games.

 

- Mahomes has 16 game winning drives in 96 career games

 

Allen has more game winning drives and throws than Mahomes, despite playing less games.

 

Some of you say Allen gets too much respect. I say he doesn’t get enough.

 

Allen won't get the respect that Mahomes gets until he wins a Super Bowl. It's not his fault the Bills defense doesn't show up in the playoffs. Fair or not that is how it will be with the media and fans of other teams.

[Einstein]

12 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

Allen won't get the respect that Mahomes gets until he wins a Super Bowl. It's not his fault the Bills defense doesn't show up in the playoffs. Fair or not that is how it will be with the media and fans of other teams.

 

Agreed.

 

The media will media.

 

It’s more frustrating that our own fan base doesn’t see it.

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Allen needs to start making throws when the game is on the line. Thats the biggest difference between the two. Mahomes always seems to make that game winning play when his team needs it. With Allen its always an overthrow, miscommunication with the WR or situation where he simply doesn’t see the open WR. 

Like the throw against Detroit in 2022? 

 

 

[SaulGoodman]

On 7/3/2024 at 8:39 AM, Einstein said:

 

Yes. It is a mixture of incredible route running by Kelce and impressive play scheming by Reid.

 

People forget that the Chiefs went 12-4 with Alex Smith as QB before drafting Mahomes.

 

12-4… with Alex Smith.

 

They also forget that in Alex Smith’s last year in KC before Mahomes took over, he threw for over 4,000 yards and had only 5 INT’s.

 

Alex Smith… 4000 yards and 5 INT’s.

 

The conclusion is clear: Much of this is Reid and Kelce (and also Hill when he was there). It’s Mahomes too, of course. This is not to dismiss how great he has been. He is great. But to ignore that he walked into the most perfect situation in NFL history is to choose to be ignorant.

 

I have zero doubt that Allen has the rings if he was drafted to KC, and Mahomes would be talked about as runner up to Allen if we drafted him here.

 

Yes, they went 12-4 with Alex Smith one time, but it took some luck to get there and they were bounced in their first playoff game at home. 

 

Harbaugh went 13-3 with Alex Smith. Is he even better than Andy Reid?

 

And McD made the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor and a mediocre roster, in a division with Tom Brady. He must be the greatest of all. 

[Success]

12 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

No. There was an entire paragraph after that. 
 

And where’s the proof of the opposite? 

 

I haven't heard anyone say that Allen doesn't carry his team more.  You're probably the 1st Chiefs fan I've seen who doesn't acknowledge that.

 

Just look at this past year's playoff game. I can name 3-4 other Chiefs who had game impacting plays.  I can't think of another Bill who did besides Allen - maybe Shakir's catch?

 

And that's how it always goes.  Allen's D lets him down - this is well known.  Mahomes' D makes big plays and stops when they need 'em.

 

[SaulGoodman]

35 minutes ago, Success said:

 

I haven't heard anyone say that Allen doesn't carry his team more.  You're probably the 1st Chiefs fan I've seen who doesn't acknowledge that.

 

Just look at this past year's playoff game. I can name 3-4 other Chiefs who had game impacting plays.  I can't think of another Bill who did besides Allen - maybe Shakir's catch?

 

And that's how it always goes.  Allen's D lets him down - this is well known.  Mahomes' D makes big plays and stops when they need 'em.

 

 

Allen had to do more early in his career, sure. I doubt many KC fans agree he's had to do a lot more in recent years. 

 

People that study rosters for a living, including PFF, have ranked Buffalo's rosters among the best in the league over the last 4 or so years. I'd agree with them. 

 

Few outside of here would claim that Mahomes' defense has consistently been good in the playoffs. He needed 38 pts to win a SB. His D allowed 31 in another SB. He lost an AFC title game despite scoring 31 vs a great Belichick D at home. In '19, his teammates put him in a 24-0 hole and the defense allowed 31...KC still won by 20. 

 

In the 13 seconds game, the D allowed 36 in regulation, DBs were falling down and leaving players wide open repeatedly, the running game did zilch and Butker missed two kicks. Other than Tyreek's YAC on the long TD play, he had little help from his teammates that night. In the '22 AFCC, he was working with practice squad WRs while hobbling on one leg. Last year he had crappy tackles and WRs. Most years he has little to no running game. 

 

The only times that Allen's defense truly failed were in the games vs KC. And we have a large enough sample at this point to say that few, if any, defenses are going to shut down a healthyish Mahomes/Reid offense in the playoffs. Allen's defenses have been fine outside of the KC games. 

 

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

8 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Allen needs to start making throws when the game is on the line. Thats the biggest difference between the two. Mahomes always seems to make that game winning play when his team needs it. With Allen its always an overthrow, miscommunication with the WR or situation where he simply doesn’t see the open WR. 

 

• You mean like the ball that travelled over 70 yards in the air right after Allen hurt his throwing Elbow and hit Gabe Davis directly in the hands for a drop of a would be go ahead TD?  
• Or like the 70 yards in the air perfect pass to Diggs in the playoffs last year against KC that went right through his hands on our final drive of the game?  
• Or like in the same game with Shakir running a perfect route for the go ahead TD and instead saw Dawkins get blown up by Chris Jones into stepping on Allens foot on the throw causing him to short arm it?  
  • Or how about the next play when the Chiefs DL just blew past our OL and put Allen on the run right after the snap to end our drive before Bass then misses a game tying FG?  
• Or how about the go ahead TD strike to Gabe Davis against KC in 2021 giving us the lead with under 2 minutes to go before our D gave up a long easy TD to Hill where he waved bye as he ran past everyone?  
• Or how about right after that, the TD strike again to Gabe to give us what should have been the game winning TD with 13 seconds left before our ST and DC decided to blow the game?

Allen has been doing his part, its his teammates around him that have not come up big in big moments where Josh Allen has to do it all.  

Edited July 8 by Alphadawg7

[Alphadawg7]

Curious about the 3 people who voted other...who is the other that is better than both Mahomes and Allen if all things were equal?

[BillMafia716ix]

5 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Like the throw against Detroit in 2022? 

 

 

Allen has reached the point he’s only going to be judged on how he performs come playoff time. 0-4 vs. Burrow/Mahomes. 

 

27 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

• You mean like the ball that travelled over 70 yards in the air right after Allen hurt his throwing Elbow and hit Gabe Davis directly in the hands for a drop of a would be go ahead TD?  
• Or like the 70 yards in the air perfect pass to Diggs in the playoffs last year against KC that went right through his hands on our final drive of the game?  
• Or like in the same game with Shakir running a perfect route for the go ahead TD and instead saw Dawkins get blown up by Chris Jones into stepping on Allens foot on the throw causing him to short arm it?  
  • Or how about the next play when the Chiefs DL just blew past our OL and put Allen on the run right after the snap to end our drive before Bass then misses a game tying FG?  
• Or how about the go ahead TD strike to Gabe Davis against KC in 2021 giving us the lead with under 2 minutes to go before our D gave up a long easy TD to Hill where he waved bye as he ran past everyone?  
• Or how about right after the, the TD strike again to Gabe to give us what should have been the game winning TD with 13 seconds left before our ST and DC decided to blow the game?

Allen has been doing his part, it’s his teammates around him that have not come up big in big moments where Josh Allen has to do it all.  

The Last two plays vs. KC he missed Shakir wide open in the endzone. Very next play he missed Shakir again going across the middle that would have resulted in 1st down and would have kept the potential game winning drive alive. Those are the game winning plays he has to make. 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Allen has reached the point he’s only going to be judged on how he performs come playoff time. 0-4 vs. Burrow/Mahomes. 

 

The Last two plays vs. KC he missed Shakir wide open in the endzone. Very next play he missed Shakir again going across the middle that would have resulted in 1st down and would have kept the potential game winning drive alive. Those are the game winning plays he has to make. 

 

I just listed those plays...the first one he didn't miss, Chris Jones blew Dawkins up into Allen who stepped on his foot on the throw.  And the next play the DL blew right threw our OL and blew the play up.  

 

It is why people emphasize you "win in the trenches" so much, because it is true.  Mahomes doesn't win a SB last year if Chris Jones was not on that team who made multiple game saving plays that post season on final drives.  

 

So Allen needs the guys around him to do their jobs in these big moments, and not just on offense, on the defensive side too where he has multiple times given our D a lead late just to see them blow it, and sometimes multiple times in the same game like KC in 2021.  

[Billl]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I just listed those plays...the first one he didn't miss, Chris Jones blew Dawkins up into Allen who stepped on his foot on the throw.  And the next play the DL blew right threw our OL and blew the play up.  

 

It is why people emphasize you "win in the trenches" so much, because it is true.  Mahomes doesn't win a SB last year if Chris Jones was not on that team who made multiple game saving plays that post season on final drives.  

 

So Allen needs the guys around him to do their jobs in these big moments, and not just on offense, on the defensive side too where he has multiple times given our D a lead late just to see them blow it, and sometimes multiple times in the same game like KC in 2021.  

Stefon Diggs dropped a ball, so that means Josh beats no responsibility for throwing a terrible pass that would have been an easy pick 6 had it not been knocked away from Sneed by McDuffie. It also wasn’t Josh’s fault for fumbling on the next play, and of course it wasn’t Josh’s fault that he missed an open receiver in the end zone after failing to step into a wide open pocket because every LT in the league should be expected to stonewall Chris Jones 1 on 1. 
 

There is zero chance you grade Mahomes on the same curve. 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

Stefon Diggs dropped a ball, so that means Josh beats no responsibility for throwing a terrible pass that would have been an easy pick 6 had it not been knocked away from Sneed by McDuffie. It also wasn’t Josh’s fault for fumbling on the next play, and of course it wasn’t Josh’s fault that he missed an open receiver in the end zone after failing to step into a wide open pocket because every LT in the league should be expected to stonewall Chris Jones 1 on 1. 
 

There is zero chance you grade Mahomes on the same curve. 

 

Didn't say any of the above.  I said his teammates need to step up in big moments too and cited many examples of it, like Diggs dropping a 70 yard perfect pass...heck, he didn't even drop it, he let it go right through his hands in one of the most pathetic attempts I have seen at making a catch in the NFL.

 

No QB is perfect, all make mistakes, just like Mahomes who again does NOT win a SB if Chris Jones is not on the Chiefs last year who made multiple game saving plays in mulitple games including the SB when Aiyuk was wide open in the endzone but Jones blew through the line and blew up the play.  

 

If you think Allen has been the problem, then we aren't watching the same games.  Did Allen let Hill run like 60+ yards on a short crossing pass to retake the lead after Allen gave the Bills the lead with under 2 min to go?  What about when Allen again hits Davis for yet another go ahead TD leaving only 13 seconds?  Did Allen cause the kick to go out of bounds and let KC drive to force OT and then did Allen let KC march down the field for an easy TD in OT to end the game?

 

 

[ghostwriter]

33 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Curious about the 3 people who voted other...who is the other that is better than both Mahomes and Allen if all things were equal?

I think Allen and Mahomes are in their own echelon. I mean, you could probably argue that Burrow and Jackson belong in that group, but in my mind, not really.

 

Allen vs Mahomes is the new Brady vs Manning. 

[90sBills]

29 minutes ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Allen has reached the point he’s only going to be judged on how he performs come playoff time. 0-4 vs. Burrow/Mahomes. 

 

The Last two plays vs. KC he missed Shakir wide open in the endzone. Very next play he missed Shakir again going across the middle that would have resulted in 1st down and would have kept the potential game winning drive alive. Those are the game winning plays he has to make. 

You’re going to get flame for this but you are absolutely correct! Those are legacy defining plays if he makes them. Unfortunately his legacy currently is not getting past KC and Cincy in the playoffs. 

26 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I just listed those plays...the first one he didn't miss, Chris Jones blew Dawkins up into Allen who stepped on his foot on the throw.  And the next play the DL blew right threw our OL and blew the play up.  

 

There was a lot of room to the right for Allen to step up and make a clean throw. Brady wasn’t the most athletically gifted qb but his pocket awareness was second to none. Mahomes is not quite as adept as Brady was but he is still very good at knowing where pressure is coming from so he could change arm angle to complete a pass successfully. This is an area Allen could improve upon imo. 

[FireChans]

Maybe Sam Darnold would have 3 Superbowls if he got drafted by KC and developed by Reid.