How close is Allen to Mahomes if all things were equal?

[Billl]

4 hours ago, Success said:

 

You lost me at "win/loss is a qb stat."

 

That ain't football.  If it's the perception of some football fans or pundits, they're not being logical about the sport. It's an emotional reaction, which I understand many have, but it's meaningless in a debate of "better QB," unless either QB clearly outperformed the other in the games.

So what would Mahomes have to do in order to surpass Allen in your opinion?  Win an MVP (individual regular season award)?  He did that in his first year as a starter.  Win a Super Bowl (team achievement)?  He did that in his second season.  Win a Super Bowl MVP (individual award)?  He did that in his second season.  Win a second MVP?  He did that in his fifth season.  Win a second Super Bowl?  He did that in his fifth season.  Win a second Super Bowl MVP?  He did that in his fifth season.  Win a third Super Bowl?  He did that in his sixth season.  Win a third Super Bowl MVP?  He did that in his sixth season.

 

How many individual accomplishments during the regular season and the post season does he need to add to all of his regular season team accomplishments and postseason team accomplishments in order to equal whatever it is you think Allen has achieved in terms of individual and team success?  Seriously, set the bar.  Mahomes has 2 regular season MVPs, 3 Super Bowl MVPs, and 3 rings.  Josh has 0, 0, and 0.  What would Patrick need to do in order to change your mind.  It seems to me that the only thing would be to swap the arrowhead on his helmet for a bison.

[90sBills]

14 minutes ago, Billl said:

So what would Mahomes have to do in order to surpass Allen in your opinion?  Win an MVP (individual regular season award)?  He did that in his first year as a starter.  Win a Super Bowl (team achievement)?  He did that in his second season.  Win a Super Bowl MVP (individual award)?  He did that in his second season.  Win a second MVP?  He did that in his fifth season.  Win a second Super Bowl?  He did that in his fifth season.  Win a second Super Bowl MVP?  He did that in his fifth season.  Win a third Super Bowl?  He did that in his sixth season.  Win a third Super Bowl MVP?  He did that in his sixth season.

 

How many individual accomplishments during the regular season and the post season does he need to add to all of his regular season team accomplishments and postseason team accomplishments in order to equal whatever it is you think Allen has achieved in terms of individual and team success?  Seriously, set the bar.  Mahomes has 2 regular season MVPs, 3 Super Bowl MVPs, and 3 rings.  Josh has 0, 0, and 0.  What would Patrick need to do in order to change your mind.  It seems to me that the only thing would be to swap the arrowhead on his helmet for a bison.

Be a Bill. If the situation is reversed there would be KC fans with the same kind of takes.

[transplantbillsfan]

I think it's Allen and at this point I don't think it's close.

 

Allen is bigger, stronger and more durable. His arm is stronger. He's INCREDIBLY competitive 

 

That's the ball of clay Andy Reid would have had to work with if he ended up in KC rather than Mahomes.

 

I think everyone primarily argues Mahomes is so generational because of how clutch he is... except they're pretty dead even in terms of 4thQC and GWDs. And Allen has been absolutely lights out in the playoffs. When you consider rushing (and can we please stop discounting rushing??? Mobility has become essential to modern quarterbacking) he's been better than Mahomes in the postseason.

 

KC just has much better infrastructure around Mahomes. That's primarily why Patrick Mahomes is a better QB than Allen.

[ColoradoBills]

I'm a lifelong fan of the Buffalo Bills.  I pick Josh Allen and I don't look back.

[Success]

35 minutes ago, Billl said:

So what would Mahomes have to do in order to surpass Allen in your opinion?  Win an MVP (individual regular season award)?  He did that in his first year as a starter.  Win a Super Bowl (team achievement)?  He did that in his second season.  Win a Super Bowl MVP (individual award)?  He did that in his second season.  Win a second MVP?  He did that in his fifth season.  Win a second Super Bowl?  He did that in his fifth season.  Win a second Super Bowl MVP?  He did that in his fifth season.  Win a third Super Bowl?  He did that in his sixth season.  Win a third Super Bowl MVP?  He did that in his sixth season.

 

How many individual accomplishments during the regular season and the post season does he need to add to all of his regular season team accomplishments and postseason team accomplishments in order to equal whatever it is you think Allen has achieved in terms of individual and team success?  Seriously, set the bar.  Mahomes has 2 regular season MVPs, 3 Super Bowl MVPs, and 3 rings.  Josh has 0, 0, and 0.  What would Patrick need to do in order to change your mind.  It seems to me that the only thing would be to swap the arrowhead on his helmet for a bison.

 

I'll put it this way, Billl:  I haven't seen a fan on either side try to claim that Allen doesn't do more for his team than Mahomes does for his team.

 

On here, we're generally pulling our hair out, because Allen CARRIES this team.  As I've said, I don't see the big defensive plays we've had in the playoff matchups, especially compared to KC.  For the one incredible game, every single person agrees that Allen's D let him down. And I'd argue that they let him down this past January, also.

 

I like Allen's skillset more, I like his attitude more, and he's just more exciting to watch.  So, my mind is unlikely to change.  I'd encourage you to enjoy all of the titles and all of the accolades for Mahomes, rather than concern yourself with trying to change the mind of one Bills fan, on a message board for Bills fans.  The vast majority of football fans think Mahomes is better.  I don't think I'd care if I was a KC fan about a few fans in Buffalo.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

FWIW - Josh was named one of the most clutch players in the NFL

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/bills-qb-josh-allen-named-one-of-nfl-s-most-clutch-players/ar-BB1phsFz?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=d7edec5ca20f4bc59de1e9f174cd0657&ei=20

 

 

 

 

[Success]

I really don't get the angst of the KC fans on this one.  My team just won 3 titles, my QB is universally regarded as the best & some are even saying GOAT, things are looking good for the upcoming season.  They're on top of the football world, and have been for years.

 

But a few fans on a Bills message board like Allen better, and that simply doesn't sit right.  They've gotta have it ALL.

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

So what would Mahomes have to do in order to surpass Allen in your opinion?  Win an MVP (individual regular season award)?  He did that in his first year as a starter.  Win a Super Bowl (team achievement)?  He did that in his second season.  Win a Super Bowl MVP (individual award)?  He did that in his second season.  Win a second MVP?  He did that in his fifth season.  Win a second Super Bowl?  He did that in his fifth season.  Win a second Super Bowl MVP?  He did that in his fifth season.  Win a third Super Bowl?  He did that in his sixth season.  Win a third Super Bowl MVP?  He did that in his sixth season.

 

How many individual accomplishments during the regular season and the post season does he need to add to all of his regular season team accomplishments and postseason team accomplishments in order to equal whatever it is you think Allen has achieved in terms of individual and team success?  Seriously, set the bar.  Mahomes has 2 regular season MVPs, 3 Super Bowl MVPs, and 3 rings.  Josh has 0, 0, and 0.  What would Patrick need to do in order to change your mind.  It seems to me that the only thing would be to swap the arrowhead on his helmet for a bison.

 

Everyone pretty much agrees its Mahomes because of those accomplishments.  What you are missing is what some are suggesting that if Allen had played in Mahomes shoes, he TOO would have similar (maybe even better) accolades and accomplishments too.

 

I mean its pretty significant difference having to start your career on a roster being torn down, led by a defensive minded first time HC, with terrible weapons compared to Mahomes starting with a HOF offensive genius in Reid, and multiple first ballot HOF players like Hill and Kelce.  And Allens mentor was Nathan Peterman...Mahomes had Smith coming off his best season of his career on a team that was 12-4 before Mahomes.  Not to mention, Mahomes got to sit almost the whole year learning from Smith and Reid.  Allen had to step in at half time week 1 because his mentor was a scrub.  

 

Even with those differences, Allen still has set records like most TD's in first 6 years, only player in history to put up 40 TD's in 4 straight seasons (and counting), etc despite the harder path.

 

So you don't think its plausible Allen could or would have similar accolades had he played in KC instead of Mahomes with a better start and over situation for him as a QB?  On a team with difference makers on BOTH sides of the ball compared to Allen being the only difference maker in Buffalo.  I mean Diggs wasn't even one, he never had one good postseason in his 4 years here.

Edited July 3 by Alphadawg7

[Maine-iac]

I think it's a very close race but Mahommes is a more mature decision maker.  I think the talent is the same or possibly a hair on Allen's side but be it luck or maturity Mahommes is safer with the football.  Allen out fumbles Mahommes 2 to 1 and Mahommes usually has a few more TD's and a few less picks. 

Edited July 4 by Maine-iac

[CoudyBills]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:27 AM, Einstein said:

 

It is not dismantling - it is asking the question of who would have similar results if in their same situation.

 

It is recognizing that each QB’s situation is different and that the environment they are in has much to do with their success.

 

It is being wise enough to understand that Peyton Manning is a better QB than Terry Bradshaw, even though Bradshaw has more rings. 

 

It is realizing that Aaron Rodgers on the Patriots would have a handful of rings and that supporting cast and coaching are significant contributors to trophy achievement.

 

”He’d throw for 7,000 yards every year,” (if he was on the Patriots) - Tom Brady to an NFL coach back around 2018.

 

If you don’t have the wisdom to recognize and understand this, then just say so.

Your last sentence shows insecurity.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Nick Wright weighs in and repeatedly slams Josh Allen

 

 

[Matt_In_NH]

Just listened to Sirius with Lekas and Mark Dominic....they ranked their top 4 QB's....one was Mahomes Jackson Burrow Allen, the other was Mahomes Burrow Jackson Allen.   What was weird is they made all the arguments to put Allen ahead but they just gave it to Burrow and Jackson...specifically Dominic picked Jackson as two because he was "impressed with his availability" last year.   He specifically talked about availability yet kept Jackson and Burrow who both have missed a ton of time ahead of Allen.   Then Lekus went through how Allen has better stats than Jackson and he even mentioned Josh's great post season stats.....but they also mentioned turnovers and MVP's.... Jackson has not been good in pressure moments Burrow has.

 

Whatever, it is what it is.

[Big Turk]

On 7/1/2024 at 1:01 PM, thenorthremembers said:

Allen has 38 more turnovers in just two less career games.     They are pretty much neck in neck when it comes to touchdowns and overall yards, but the turnovers, to me, are the equalizer.   Allen is the 2nd best quarterback in the league but Pat is #1.

 

Thanks to an egregious number of INT's that defenders drop when Mahomes throws it right to them or that get overturned on penalty.  Mahomes must lead the league by aa country mile in those two stats.  You watch dudes making diving one handed INTs against Allen and watch the same defender two weeks later drop a ball that hits the defender right between the numbers with nobody around him when Mahomes throws it.  

 

WTF is going on?

Edited July 5 by Big Turk

[Matt_In_NH]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Thanks to an egregious number of INT's that defenders drop when Mahomes throws it right to them or that get overturned on penalty.  Mahomes must lead the league by aa country mile in those two stats.  You watch dudes making diving one handed INTs against Allen and watch the same defender two weeks later drop a ball that hits the defender right between the numbers with nobody around him when Mahomes throws it.  

 

WTF is going on?

Turnover worthy throws and turnover worthy plays are stats you can find.  Mahomes does not lead in those stats and it is true luck plays into it. Ther is no evidence of your conjecture.  He does lead super bowls and stuff.  That is probably my what is going on.  

Edited July 5 by Matt_In_NH

[Success]

5 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Nick Wright weighs in and repeatedly slams Josh Allen

 

 

 

Goofy, unintelligent clown says what?

 

[thenorthremembers]

6 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Thanks to an egregious number of INT's that defenders drop when Mahomes throws it right to them or that get overturned on penalty.  Mahomes must lead the league by aa country mile in those two stats.  You watch dudes making diving one handed INTs against Allen and watch the same defender two weeks later drop a ball that hits the defender right between the numbers with nobody around him when Mahomes throws it.  

 

WTF is going on?

Football is funny that way but bottom line is turnovers change the outcome of games

 

Alot like the pff stat "turnover worthy passes"  talk to me about the interceptions that were caught, not the ones that weren't 

[SaulGoodman]

So…Allen is a better postseason QB because he has allegedly better postseason stats? Which equates to a few stats that are better by the smallest of margins (from a much smaller sample of games). 
 

When the sample size is this small, strength of competition is a big factor. 

The deeper you go into the postseason, usually the stronger the defenses you face. Allen didn’t have to play against this year’s Baltimore D or SF’s great defenses, didn’t have to face an elite Tampa pass rush with a 3rd string OL, etc. 

 

With the difference in sample and competition faced, a couple slightly better stats aren’t meaningful. Especially when he’s well behind in some important stats (including per game).

 

Another reason it’s not meaningful is that Mahomes has a big edge in overall stats throughout their six years as starters. 

 

[SaulGoodman]

On 7/3/2024 at 6:30 PM, Success said:

I really don't get the angst of the KC fans on this one.  My team just won 3 titles, my QB is universally regarded as the best & some are even saying GOAT, things are looking good for the upcoming season.  They're on top of the football world, and have been for years.

 

But a few fans on a Bills message board like Allen better, and that simply doesn't sit right.  They've gotta have it ALL.

 

 

Did Patriots fans retire from message board debates when their team started winning? That's not what fans do. The way I see a particular play or circumstance isn't going to change based on the number of wins my team accumulates. 

 

The only things that don't sit right are false narratives or highly subjective opinions tossed around as facts. Such as, in your last post, when you said that Allen is "just more exciting to watch." Not only is it not a fact, but it's not even an opinion I see that often. Mahomes is probably known more for exciting plays (improvisation, unorthodox throws, big conversions in big moments) than anything else. He just hasn't thrown a ton of deep bombs the last two years, for obvious reasons. 

 

It's also not a fact that Allen has been forced to carry his team more than Mahomes. A couple years ago, KC eeked out a 3 pt comeback win in OT vs a mediocre Titans team. Mahomes accounted for all but 7 of their 509 yds gained. That's carrying a team.

 

In his first NFL start as a rookie, he went on the road and carried 2nd and 3rd stringers to a win. Even after being taken out of the game for a quarter and seeing the lead disappear. In '21, Mahomes had one of the best games of his career with Kelce out and Hill only playing a few snaps, vs a good Pitt defense. His top receivers were Byron Pringle, Derrick Gore, Darrel Williams and Hardman. All throughout college he carried bums that haven't been heard from since to big offensive stats and FBS records. A year ago, he carried a WR corps of Skyy Moore, Justin Watson, MVS and Marcus Kemp (practice squad) in the AFC Championship, while hobbled by a high ankle sprain. KC's highest rusher in that game (by far) had 26 yds.

 

And, of course, he just carried maybe the worst WR corps (and one of the weakest pairs of tackles) to a SB win, despite one of the most difficult paths ever. 

 

Where does this idea come from that he can't or hasn't carried teams? 

Edited July 7 by SaulGoodman

[Success]

1 hour ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Did Patriots fans retire from message board debates when their team started winning? That's not what fans do. The way I see a particular play or circumstance isn't going to change based on the number of wins my team accumulates. 

 

The only things that don't sit right are false narratives or highly subjective opinions tossed around as facts. Such as, in your last post, when you said that Allen is "just more exciting to watch." Not only is it not a fact, but it's not even an opinion I see that often. Mahomes is probably known more for exciting plays (improvisation, unorthodox throws, big conversions in big moments) than anything else. He just hasn't thrown a ton of deep bombs the last two years, for obvious reasons. 

 

It's also not a fact that Allen has been forced to carry his team more than Mahomes. A couple years ago, KC eeked out a 3 pt comeback win in OT vs a mediocre Titans team. Mahomes accounted for all but 7 of their 509 yds gained. That's carrying a team.

 

In his first NFL start as a rookie, he went on the road and carried 2nd and 3rd stringers to a win. Even after being taken out of the game for a quarter and seeing the lead disappear. In '21, Mahomes had one of the best games of his career with Kelce out and Hill only playing a few snaps, vs a good Pitt defense. His top receivers were Byron Pringle, Derrick Gore, Darrel Williams and Hardman. All throughout college he carried bums that haven't been heard from since to big offensive stats and FBS records. A year ago, he carried a WR corps of Skyy Moore, Justin Watson, MVS and Marcus Kemp (practice squad) in the AFC Championship, while hobbled by a high ankle sprain. KC's highest rusher in that game (by far) had 26 yds.

 

And, of course, he just carried maybe the worst WR corps (and one of the weakest pairs of tackles) to a SB win, despite one of the most difficult paths ever. 

 

Where does this idea come from that he can't or hasn't carried teams? 

 

You picked one game a few years ago for proof that Mahomes carries his team as much as Allen?

 

[Mikie2times]

On 7/3/2024 at 6:43 PM, Success said:

 

I'll put it this way, Billl:  I haven't seen a fan on either side try to claim that Allen doesn't do more for his team than Mahomes does for his team.

 

On here, we're generally pulling our hair out, because Allen CARRIES this team.  As I've said, I don't see the big defensive plays we've had in the playoff matchups, especially compared to KC.  For the one incredible game, every single person agrees that Allen's D let him down. And I'd argue that they let him down this past January, also.

 

I like Allen's skillset more, I like his attitude more, and he's just more exciting to watch.  So, my mind is unlikely to change.  I'd encourage you to enjoy all of the titles and all of the accolades for Mahomes, rather than concern yourself with trying to change the mind of one Bills fan, on a message board for Bills fans.  The vast majority of football fans think Mahomes is better.  I don't think I'd care if I was a KC fan about a few fans in Buffalo.

 

 

Allens very nature demands that more is put on his back. He isn't going to sit in the pocket and use conventional weapons in the same way others would. Allen will always carry a team individually with his style of play. Perhaps nobody plays that style as well as him. That aspect will also be his detriment at times. Montana didn't carry his team like that nor did Brady. Not the way Allen does.  They operated in a systematic way that allowed the rest of the offense to help with the lifting. It gave them incredible consistency in what they did. Nobody can really carry a team like Josh does and achieve the consistency they had. 

 

The two players are just different. Nobody is like Josh. It's almost pointless to ever think you could just sub Allen out into another team and have any clue what will happen. WIll Josh use the weapons in similar ways? Who knows. They're both elite and I expect both to be in the hall of fame.