How close is Allen to Mahomes if all things were equal?

[90sBills]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

No I don't think Mahomes thought he saw a holding that not everybody even agrees was a good call and decided to throw the ball in that direction to maybe draw a flag to run the clock down. Because that's utterly ridiculous. The kind of bizarre narrative a person only comes up with when they've backed themselves into a corner in a debate.

 

Here's the actual play:

 

 

Mahomes is looking at JuJu the whole time, pre-snap even. Very clearly that is the first read. As soon as he confirms the nearest safety's leverage he's just taking a 1v1 shot to his guy running towards the endzone. This is a TD shot, clear as day. Not a galaxy brain 4D chess draw a holdng flag shot. That's nonsense and you know it.

 

Occam's razor - great QBs go for the endzone when they can. They don't turn down open TD windows to chase perfect game clock scenarios.

 

Like I said, there are plenty of criticisms to make of that final drive. Choosing to try and score a TD over trying to perfectly thread the game clock needle is not one of them. Me, I am still baffled as to how Dawkins ended up 1v1 vs Chris Jones on a TD shot play... Just terrible situational game management in a critical moment, same as usual under this regime.

 

Agree to disagree. Juju was the first read. It was designed to get to the sticks. Bradbury had a handful of jersey so that is a holding call 100% of the time. Mahomes saw it and pointed to it almost immediately as he was getting to his feet. Even when that’s the case there are people, like you acknowledged, that still think it’s not a penalty. It goes to show how different people can interpret different things while looking at the same situation. I know if that was a Bills receiver that got grabbed by the jersey like that I’d be pissed if the flag is not thrown. 

[HappyDays]

4 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

It was designed to get to the sticks

 

Are you for real man? Like actually? JuJu is running basically a slot fade into the endzone. What are you even talking about? You think the plan was for him to catch the ball exactly past the sticks and then just tumble to the ground? Is this really the narrative you have to come up with to try and prove that smarter QBs than Allen don't take shots at the endzone in situations like this? This is nuts man.

 

6 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

Mahomes saw it and pointed to it almost immediately as he was getting to his feet.

 

Dude if I had a nickel for every time Mahomes aggressively wagged his finger in the direction of an incomplete pass, I'd be Travis Kelce's girlfriend.

[90sBills]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Are you for real man? Like actually? JuJu is running basically a slot fade into the endzone. What are you even talking about? You think the plan was for him to catch the ball exactly past the sticks and then just tumble to the ground? Is this really the narrative you have to come up with to try and prove that smarter QBs than Allen don't take shots at the endzone in situations like this? This is nuts man.

 

 

Dude if I had a nickel for every time Mahomes aggressively wagged his finger in the direction of an incomplete pass, I'd be Travis Kelce's girlfriend.

Yes I’m for real. Juju was faking inside then ran back out. Bradbury’s hold redirected him. Mahomes threw it so far over his head there was no way he could’ve caught it. That throw was a throwaway to draw attention to the infraction. If the hold didn’t happen Mahomes would’ve hit him for the first and Juju would’ve went down. The Super Bowl mic’d up version had the audio of what KC wanted to do. Which was get close and run out the clock. 
 

What’s bizarre is you thinking that’s not a plausible plan. You’re a knowledgeable fan. You should know the score was tied at the time. Their best chance of winning was to run out the time and kick a winning fg. Which was what they did. Their defense just gave up a long TD drive. They didn’t want the Eagles to get another chance at it.

 

Now back to the issue with our last game. I know you disagree with my view on the shot to Shakir. You could’ve used a different example than this one with Mahomes. They were operating from a position of leverage in a tied ballgame. We didn’t have that leverage being down a fg. That angle of argument would make more sense.

 

Anyway everyone has an opinion and they don’t always have to match. I can’t wait until the season starts so we could have something new to talk about. This subject is getting stale. 

17 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Dude if I had a nickel for every time Mahomes aggressively wagged his finger in the direction of an incomplete pass, I'd be Travis Kelce's girlfriend.

This is funny and true. I chuckled out loud. Touche. 

[Billy Claude]

They really need to revive the "Da Bears" SNL sketch with Josh Allen and the Bills Mafia.

 

Who would win the Super Bowl if Josh Allen was forced to play with only 10 on offense but had Andy Reid calling the plays?    Josh Allen of course.  He would win with nine if one of them was Travis Kelce.

 

Would Josh Allen win the Super Bowl if every other person (players, coaches, front office, M&O folks, ticket sellers, etc.) in the Bills organization were not totally incompetent?   Of course, Josh Allen would win, just replace Sean McDermott by a random fan.

 

Is every turnover Josh Allen ever had the fault of his receivers?  Yes, of course, even the fumbles, and it turns out that turnovers, at least for Josh Allen, are actually good things.

 

Edited July 9 by Billy Claude

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

No I don't think Mahomes thought he saw a holding that not everybody even agrees was a good call and decided to throw the ball in that direction to maybe draw a flag to run the clock down. Because that's utterly ridiculous. The kind of bizarre narrative a person only comes up with when they've backed themselves into a corner in a debate.

 

Here's the actual play:

 

 

Mahomes is looking at JuJu the whole time, pre-snap even. Very clearly that is the first read. As soon as he confirms the nearest safety's leverage he's just taking a 1v1 shot to his guy running towards the endzone. This is a TD shot, clear as day. Not a galaxy brain 4D chess draw a holdng flag shot. That's nonsense and you know it.

 

Occam's razor - great QBs go for the endzone when they can. They don't turn down open TD windows to chase perfect game clock scenarios.

 

Like I said, there are plenty of criticisms to make of that final drive. Choosing to try and score a TD over trying to perfectly thread the game clock needle is not one of them. Me, I am still baffled as to how Dawkins ended up 1v1 vs Chris Jones on a TD shot play... Just terrible situational game management in a critical moment, same as usual under this regime.

 

 

I agree of all the things to blame on that play taking a shot is absolute bottom of the pile. If Shakir fights through the traffic a split second sooner, Dion holds the block a split second longer or Josh just slides an inch in the pocket before he sets to throw it is a touchdown. Those are the tiny margins. 

[HappyDays]

8 hours ago, 90sBills said:

I know you disagree with my view on the shot to Shakir. You could’ve used a different example than this one with Mahomes. They were operating from a position of leverage in a tied ballgame. We didn’t have that leverage being down a fg. That angle of argument would make more sense.

 

Right so in that context what Mahomes did was even stupider if we take your theory of ideal QB play in that situation. The Chiefs needed just a FG to win the game. Inarguably the best case scenario was picking up a 1st and then kicking a FG as time expired. Whereas with us we needed a TD to have any kind of chance of winning the game in regulation.

 

But Mahomes didn't try to perfectly thread the needle. He tried to score a TD on a play that his coaches clearly designed to be a TD.

 

You're the only person I've seen try to claim otherwise. The hold redirected JuJu's route?? You know that's not how routes work, right? A hold doesn't "redirect" a WR from a horizontal route to a vertical route. You're just making crap up because you're starting with the supposition that "smarter" QBs don't try to throw TDs in those situations. Mahomes is a smarter QB, therefore he must have been doing something else on that play.

 

9 hours ago, 90sBills said:

Mahomes threw it so far over his head there was no way he could’ve caught it.

 

Yeah man because sometimes Mahomes throws bad passes. His tackles get beat off the snap, he's about to get crushed, and his mechanics are way off. He threw it in the direction of his first read 1v1 to try and score a TD and the pass was off the mark. I don't know what else to tell you.

[SaulGoodman]

11 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

McD carried Reids belongings in KC until he eventually got a shot to coach as an assistant with Jim Johnson. He has literally no offensive experience in his career and played defense in college. This isn't a multi skilled defensive coach like Belichick who spent years learning both sides of the ball. He is a defensive coach and a great leader.

 

Speaking of which you have a really good defensive coach in Spags. Arguably better than McD at least as far as the X' and O's are concerned and ironically another guy McD learned from in his time in Philadelphia. Given Reids playoff record before and after Mahomes I'm inclined to agree Mahomes is a much bigger reason for the success they have had. But with that Reid is most certainly one of the better minds in the NFL when it comes to offense. His history says as much and his performance on that side of the ball in his career does as well. He also has that excellent defensive mind in Spags that allows him to focus on the side of the ball thats most impactful to Mahomes.  

 

I'm not the guy in this thread arguing that Allen is on the same level as Mahomes. But if you want a guy in the thread to argue who is gotten more competent coaching I would be happy to fill that role. It's Mahomes and it's not by a small margin.  

 

I'm not even necessarily saying you're wrong--I'm genuinely curious for insight as to why people think this. It seems to be a pretty strongly-held belief by most here. 

 

Obviously I think Reid is the better coach, and he's clearly accomplished more. But I don't think he's cracked some sort of code. What is he doing on a game to game basis that creates such an advantage for his QB?  What makes him vastly superior to McD (a fine coach in his own right) overall? It obviously can't be the decisions at the end of the 13 seconds game, because Reid's made similar blunders 100 times in his career. 

 

I get that McD isn't very offensively adept, but he's surrounded himself with people who are. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 9 by SaulGoodman

[90sBills]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Right so in that context what Mahomes did was even stupider if we take your theory of ideal QB play in that situation. The Chiefs needed just a FG to win the game. Inarguably the best case scenario was picking up a 1st and then kicking a FG as time expired. Whereas with us we needed a TD to have any kind of chance of winning the game in regulation.

 

But Mahomes didn't try to perfectly thread the needle. He tried to score a TD on a play that his coaches clearly designed to be a TD.

 

You're the only person I've seen try to claim otherwise. The hold redirected JuJu's route?? You know that's not how routes work, right? A hold doesn't "redirect" a WR from a horizontal route to a vertical route. You're just making crap up because you're starting with the supposition that "smarter" QBs don't try to throw TDs in those situations. Mahomes is a smarter QB, therefore he must have been doing something else on that play.

 

 

Yeah man because sometimes Mahomes throws bad passes. His tackles get beat off the snap, he's about to get crushed, and his mechanics are way off. He threw it in the direction of his first read 1v1 to try and score a TD and the pass was off the mark. I don't know what else to tell you.

It’s ‘stupider’ only under your assumption that they were trying to score a TD there. You know what they say about assumptions. 
 

Like I said go watch the NFL mic’s up version. KC didn’t want to give the ball back with time. Philly knew if they had any time left when they get the ball back they’d win. Both teams were operating under those objectives. If you can’t see that it’s on you. You seem to think the way you see things is the ‘correct’ way. Even when the game turned out exactly like I said after the 1st down was attained. 

[Mikie2times]

2 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

I'm not even necessarily saying you're wrong--I'm genuinely curious for insight as to why people think this. It seems to be a pretty strongly-held belief by most here. 

 

Obviously I think Reid is the better coach, and he's clearly accomplished more. But I don't think he's cracked some sort of code. What is he doing on a game to game basis that creates such an advantage for his QB?  What makes him vastly superior to McD (a fine coach in his own right) overall? It obviously can't be the decisions at the end of the 13 seconds game, because Reid's made similar blunders 100 times in his career. 

 

I get that McD isn't very offensively adept, but he's surrounded himself with people who are. 

 

 

 

 

Daboll seemed to do a good job. The book is certainly still out with Dorsey and Brady. To say either of those guys is good or bad is a crap shoot. They have less years being an OC than Reid does as HC of KC and Allen's improvisation has been a huge % of our offense. 

[Avisan]

8 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Daboll seemed to do a good job. The book is certainly still out with Dorsey and Brady. To say either of those guys is good or bad is a crap shoot. They have less years being an OC than Reid does as HC of KC and Allen's improvisation has been a huge % of our offense. 

Genuine question-- what has Daboll shown as an offensive coordinator/offensive mind outside of his years working with Josh Allen?  I have not seen anything compelling to suggest that Daboll was a particularly good offensive coordinator.  Chan Gailey, for example, can hang his hat on getting medium-to-good production out of talent that was definitely bottom half, if not bottom third, of the league.  Not the most prestigious of accomplishments, but he could put together functional systems that squeezed the most possible juice out of mediocre talents.

 

Open to having my mind changed.  That said, I have never really understood the pining for Daboll or the small-but-vocal faction of fandom that would have preferred keeping him over McDermott.  I just don't see it.

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, Avisan said:

Genuine question-- what has Daboll shown as an offensive coordinator/offensive mind outside of his years working with Josh Allen?  I have not seen anything compelling to suggest that Daboll was a particularly good offensive coordinator.  Chan Gailey, for example, can hang his hat on getting medium-to-good production out of talent that was definitely bottom half, if not bottom third, of the league.  Not the most prestigious of accomplishments, but he could put together functional systems that squeezed the most possible juice out of mediocre talents.

 

Open to having my mind changed.  That said, I have never really understood the pining for Daboll or the small-but-vocal faction of fandom that would have preferred keeping him over McDermott.  I just don't see it.

I thought the offense was fairly creative and Allen played his best ball under him. But not a topic I would die on the hill for. 

[Matt_In_NH]

On 7/9/2024 at 12:56 PM, Mikie2times said:

Daboll seemed to do a good job. The book is certainly still out with Dorsey and Brady. To say either of those guys is good or bad is a crap shoot. They have less years being an OC than Reid does as HC of KC and Allen's improvisation has been a huge % of our offense. 

 

It is crazy how much the legacy of Dabol is impaced by how his era ended with the playoff run culminating in 13 seconds.  The Bills scored, 6, 10, 13 and 14 points in 4 of their 16 regular season games that year.  They struggled badly at times and had to work through it.  Dabol was very stubborn about going to the run, see Jags and Steelers games.

[Billy Claude]

51 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

 

It is crazy how much the legacy of Dabol is impaced by how his era ended with the playoff run culminating in 13 seconds.  The Bills scored, 6, 10, 13 and 14 points in 4 of their 16 regular season games that year.  They struggled badly at times and had to work through it.  Dabol was very stubborn about going to the run, see Jags and Steelers games.

 

 

Daboll has approached mythical status on this board (though not quite to the level of Andy Reid) even though there were plenty of complaints when he was with the Bills.  The Jaguars game that season was probably as bad as the offense looked since Josh Allen's rookie year.

 

 

 

Edited July 11 by Billy Claude

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, Billy Claude said:

 

 

Daboll has approached mythical status on this board (though not quite to the level of Andy Reid) even though there were plenty of complaints when he was with the Bills.  The Jaguars game that season was probably as bad as the offense looked since Josh Allen's rookie year.

 

 

 

Yeah man, Andy Reid never had a bad offensive game. 

[Mikie2times]

5 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

 

It is crazy how much the legacy of Dabol is impaced by how his era ended with the playoff run culminating in 13 seconds.  The Bills scored, 6, 10, 13 and 14 points in 4 of their 16 regular season games that year.  They struggled badly at times and had to work through it.  Dabol was very stubborn about going to the run, see Jags and Steelers games.

I didn't exactly the say the guy was a legend. Allens best seasons happened when he was here. That has to stand for something. 

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

I didn't exactly the say the guy was a legend. Allens best seasons happened when he was here. That has to stand for something. 

 

Not going to argue about when Josh's best season was but the offense is near the top of the league with Allen and whoever the OC is.  At the same time, there are times they struggle and that happened under all the OC's including Dabol.  There were routine "fire Dabol" threads......

[NewEra]

Mahomes will likely end his career as the 2nd best, if not the best QB ever. 
 

That said-  I think Josh would also be in that position if he were to have drafted into Mahomes’ situation in KC-  best HC in the league-  best play caller in the league-  best playoff DC, maybe ever-  top 2 TE all time-  top 5 DT all time-  most unique WR the nfl has ever seen (imo)- top notch GM