How close is Allen to Mahomes if all things were equal?

[Success]

50 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Maybe Sam Darnold would have 3 Superbowls if he got drafted by KC and developed by Reid.

 

Is the argument here that circumstances are inconsequential?  Great QB's win Super Bowls no matter where they are & who they play for and with?

 

[Success]

2 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Allen had to do more early in his career, sure. I doubt many KC fans agree he's had to do a lot more in recent years. 

 

People that study rosters for a living, including PFF, have ranked Buffalo's rosters among the best in the league over the last 4 or so years. I'd agree with them. 

 

Few outside of here would claim that Mahomes' defense has consistently been good in the playoffs. He needed 38 pts to win a SB. His D allowed 31 in another SB. He lost an AFC title game despite scoring 31 vs a great Belichick D at home. In '19, his teammates put him in a 24-0 hole and the defense allowed 31...KC still won by 20. 

 

In the 13 seconds game, the D allowed 36 in regulation, DBs were falling down and leaving players wide open repeatedly, the running game did zilch and Butker missed two kicks. Other than Tyreek's YAC on the long TD play, he had little help from his teammates that night. In the '22 AFCC, he was working with practice squad WRs while hobbling on one leg. Last year he had crappy tackles and WRs. Most years he has little to no running game. 

 

The only times that Allen's defense truly failed were in the games vs KC. And we have a large enough sample at this point to say that few, if any, defenses are going to shut down a healthyish Mahomes/Reid offense in the playoffs. Allen's defenses have been fine outside of the KC games. 

 

 

 

 

That's really not what I see, or have seen.  And when you rank rosters - are you factoring in that in this past year's playoff game, the Bills were missing 3 LB's, 2 CB's (with 2 that were starting playing hurt), and a starting safety?  Is it any wonder at all why there was a huge disparity in 1st down yardage between the 2 teams?

 

And it still came down to a missed FG.  I'd argue that there is no way KC wins that game w/ similar injuries on defense, and the Bills being relatively healthy.  

 

KC fans will always try to use team accomplishments to prop up Mahomes over Allen, and most of the football world does, too.  Rejoice in that.  Most people think Mahomes is clearly the best.

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, 90sBills said:

You’re going to get flame for this but you are absolutely correct! Those are legacy defining plays if he makes them. Unfortunately his legacy currently is not getting past KC and Cincy in the playoffs. 

There was a lot of room to the right for Allen to step up and make a clean throw. Brady wasn’t the most athletically gifted qb but his pocket awareness was second to none. Mahomes is not quite as adept as Brady was but he is still very good at knowing where pressure is coming from so he could change arm angle to complete a pass successfully. This is an area Allen could improve upon imo. 

 

People forget this was a strike to the endzone, this isn't a throw he can just throw further as he keeps running, he has the outbounds line coming.  If he pulls his arm back and steps up the window would have been closed.  Now if you want to say earlier in the sequence he should have stepped up more, well maybe he could have, but there was also no imminent pressure at that exact moment either to force the step up.  And Brady is the GOAT, not many people do it as well as the GOAT, in fact, I would argue no one in NFL history moved in the pocket as well as Brady.  

 

And I am not even saying he can't improve on it, because obviously he can.  But you and others are harping on one play where it wasn't entirely his fault even if you want to include blame on him.  I listed many instances like Diggs drop on that same drive, Davis dropping a winning TD against the Jets, the Bills defense blowing the lead Allen gave them TWICE in the final 2 minutes of the 2021 game and then blundering OT away after as well.  

 

So point for me is simple...Allen has made a lot of plays to get this team to the next level just to see other players not do their job and fail to help him out.  Mahomes on the other hand has a guy like MVS who couldn't catch a cold making huge tough catches and plays in the postseason, guys like Chris Jones taking over games in crunch time, etc etc.  Who has done any of that for Allen though?

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Success said:

 

Is the argument here that circumstances are inconsequential?  Great QB's win Super Bowls no matter where they are & who they play for and with?

 

The argument here is you can play the “this guy would be greater elsewhere” card for literally everyone. 

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

People forget this was a strike to the endzone, this isn't a throw he can just throw further as he keeps running, he has the outbounds line coming.  If he pulls his arm back and steps up the window would have been closed.  Now if you want to say earlier in the sequence he should have stepped up more, well maybe he could have, but there was also no imminent pressure at that exact moment either to force the step up.  And Brady is the GOAT, not many people do it as well as the GOAT, in fact, I would argue no one in NFL history moved in the pocket as well as Brady.  

 

And I am not even saying he can't improve on it, because obviously he can.  But you and others are harping on one play where it wasn't entirely his fault even if you want to include blame on him.  I listed many instances like Diggs drop on that same drive, Davis dropping a winning TD against the Jets, the Bills defense blowing the lead Allen gave them TWICE in the final 2 minutes of the 2021 game and then blundering OT away after as well.  

 

So point for me is simple...Allen has made a lot of plays to get this team to the next level just to see other players not do their job and fail to help him out.  Mahomes on the other hand has a guy like MVS who couldn't catch a cold making huge tough catches and plays in the postseason, guys like Chris Jones taking over games in crunch time, etc etc.  Who has done any of that for Allen though?

Can’t speak for all but for me the decision to make that throw was what I criticized. KC had two timeouts left with 1:40 if that throw connected. Given Mahomes’ playoffs history and how our defense was playing in that game there’s very little chance we could’ve stopped them if that pass connected for a TD. I was really impressed with Allen’s game up to the 2-min warning. He showed a lot of patience and I really thought we were going score a walk off TD to win the game with hardly any time left and no TO’s for KC. One more 1st would’ve probably did it.  But instead we went for the kill shot and got killed. It was disappointing. 
 

Look how SF played KC in the Super Bowl. Their last drive in regulation they were methodically moving down the field. No big homerun shots. It took a great defensive play by KC to stop them. SF didn’t succeed but they made it a lot tougher for KC. That’s the formula for beating the Chiefs in the playoffs.

[Success]

30 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

Can’t speak for all but for me the decision to make that throw was what I criticized. KC had two timeouts left with 1:40 if that throw connected. Given Mahomes’ playoffs history and how our defense was playing in that game there’s very little chance we could’ve stopped them if that pass connected for a TD. I was really impressed with Allen’s game up to the 2-min warning. He showed a lot of patience and I really thought we were going score a walk off TD to win the game with hardly any time left and no TO’s for KC. One more 1st would’ve probably did it.  But instead we went for the kill shot and got killed. It was disappointing. 
 

Look how SF played KC in the Super Bowl. Their last drive in regulation they were methodically moving down the field. No big homerun shots. It took a great defensive play by KC to stop them. SF didn’t succeed but they made it a lot tougher for KC. That’s the formula for beating the Chiefs in the playoffs.

 

Dude, elite QB's do NOT think that way.  Oh, dear - my defense can't hold up; I shouldn't take the open guy in the endzone, and just dink & dunk down to the 1, where we can easily roll in for a last second TD.

 

Shakir being open might have been the last clean shot JA had in that circumstance.  Once you get down inside the 15 and inside the 10 - defenses tighten up. There might not have been any more open looks, or even looks that weren't heavily contested.

 

You take the open guy when you've got him. Period. You can't script a few yards here, a few yards there, eat up the clock & then magically score.

 

[90sBills]

1 minute ago, Success said:

 

Dude, elite QB's do NOT think that way.  Oh, dear - my defense can't hold up; I shouldn't take the open guy in the endzone, and just dink & dunk down to the 1, where we can easily roll in for a last second TD.

 

Shakir being open might have been the last clean shot JA had in that circumstance.  Once you get down inside the 15 and inside the 10 - defenses tighten up. There might not have been any more open looks, or even looks that weren't heavily contested.

 

You take the open guy when you've got him. Period. You can't script a few yards here, a few yards there, eat up the clock & then magically score.

 

I disagree that elite QBs don’t think that way. Shakir was not the only open receiver on that play. If he was I might understand the decision. But Diggs was wide open shallow on a much easier pass to drain more clock. That would’ve had a higher chance of securing a win and elite QBs definitely think about the best ways to get their teams wins. 

[Success]

8 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

I disagree that elite QBs don’t think that way. Shakir was not the only open receiver on that play. If he was I might understand the decision. But Diggs was wide open shallow on a much easier pass to drain more clock. That would’ve had a higher chance of securing a win and elite QBs definitely think about the best ways to get their teams wins. 

 

Like I said -  wide open Shakir might have been the last time an easy TD was open like that.

 

I think the whole debate is just indicative of how insanely nitpicky we've gotten in the internet age.  I saw one fan say Allen had "rocks for brains" for making that decision. As though a QB shouldn't go for an open guy in the endzone, and should work there way down to a TD slowly like you can in a video game.

 

[90sBills]

6 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Like I said -  wide open Shakir might have been the last time an easy TD was open like that.

 

I think the whole debate is just indicative of how insanely nitpicky we've gotten in the internet age.  I saw one fan say Allen had "rocks for brains" for making that decision. As though a QB shouldn't go for an open guy in the endzone, and should work there way down to a TD slowly like you can in a video game.

 

Bolded is completely uncalled for and misguided. I do think different opinions is what make sports discussions fun. Hopefully Bills can win next time so we’d all be on the same page.  

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, 90sBills said:

Can’t speak for all but for me the decision to make that throw was what I criticized. KC had two timeouts left with 1:40 if that throw connected. Given Mahomes’ playoffs history and how our defense was playing in that game there’s very little chance we could’ve stopped them if that pass connected for a TD. I was really impressed with Allen’s game up to the 2-min warning. He showed a lot of patience and I really thought we were going score a walk off TD to win the game with hardly any time left and no TO’s for KC. One more 1st would’ve probably did it.  But instead we went for the kill shot and got killed. It was disappointing. 
 

Look how SF played KC in the Super Bowl. Their last drive in regulation they were methodically moving down the field. No big homerun shots. It took a great defensive play by KC to stop them. SF didn’t succeed but they made it a lot tougher for KC. That’s the formula for beating the Chiefs in the playoffs.

 

I mean their game ended similar to ours, just like 15 yards closer to the endzone.  Aiyuk was wide open in the endone but Chris Jones and the DL obliterarted the SF OL right off the snap and were in Purdy's face before he could even look at Aiyuk.  Chiefs did same thing to Dawkins when Chris Jones blew him into Allen as he was attempting the throw to Shakir.  

 

It helps a LOT when you got guys on your DL that impact games when it comes to beating KC.  Instead, we missed a game tying FG and as you put it had no real hope of winning with KC having 2 timeouts and over a minute left even if we had scored the TD to take a 4 point lead.  Why...because we don't have a Chris Jones to go get in Mahomes face to seal games.  

 

And on 2nd down you take the points if they are there and you can go up 4, so I don't at all fault Allen for attempting that throw.  Its not his fault that the OL got blown up on 3rd down too or that Bass missed his FG, or that the defense can't touch Mahomes.  

[DrBob806]

On 7/1/2024 at 1:04 PM, 90sBills said:

It’s not just rings. One guy has 2 regular season MVP trophies. One guy started with 50 passing touchdowns in his first year starting. If you think it’s just rings that put Mahomes above the rest you haven’t been paying attention. 

Yep. I've been an NFL fan since 1971, Mahomes is the best I've seen.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, 90sBills said:

I disagree that elite QBs don’t think that way. Shakir was not the only open receiver on that play. If he was I might understand the decision. But Diggs was wide open shallow on a much easier pass to drain more clock. That would’ve had a higher chance of securing a win and elite QBs definitely think about the best ways to get their teams wins. 

 

So in your opinion, in the 2023 Super Bowl, Mahomes made a mistake when he threw a 3rd and 8 pass to JuJu Smith-Schuster in the endzone with 1:54 remaining? Surely there was somebody open underneath to keep the clock running so they could just kick a walk off field goal. Right?

[Mikie2times]

39 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

So in your opinion, in the 2023 Super Bowl, Mahomes made a mistake when he threw a 3rd and 8 pass to JuJu Smith-Schuster in the endzone with 1:54 remaining? Surely there was somebody open underneath to keep the clock running so they could just kick a walk off field goal. Right?

I can't find the play you're talking about but if I could I would say we need six on that drive. You will probably say Mahomes doesn't always get six. Then I will say show me a time he only got three with a minute + on the clock. If he gets three regulation is over. Josh missed multiple plays on that drive and it almost didn't happen with the fumble. So however you want to debate that play the drive failed and it was most certainly the biggest of the season. So we can say McD sucks and it's true, the injuries were heavy and that's true, but at the end of the day Allen had a chance to win the game and it didn't happen. 

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

So in your opinion, in the 2023 Super Bowl, Mahomes made a mistake when he threw a 3rd and 8 pass to JuJu Smith-Schuster in the endzone with 1:54 remaining? Surely there was somebody open underneath to keep the clock running so they could just kick a walk off field goal. Right?

I remember watching that Super Bowl and it was obvious they were trying to get the 1st down with that play. Juju went in then cut back out to get separation for the first. Bradbury was beaten by the move and grabbed JuJu’s jersey. Mahomes saw that and threw the ball in that direction to draw attention to the infraction. I remember him jumping up after get hit and pointing to that area then the flag came out. So no Mahomes didn’t make a mistake. He was instrumental in leading his team to exhaust all the time on the clock for a chip shot winning fg. 

[HappyDays]

29 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

Mahomes saw that and threw the ball in that direction to draw attention to the infraction.

 

That's really your interpretation? This is weak. Everyone else saw Mahomes try to throw a TD to take the lead in the Super Bowl. But no, he tried to draw attention to a defensive holding that happened as/after he was gearing up to throw the ball. Sure. Whatever works better for your side of the debate.

 

The correct interpretation is that any QB worth his salt is going for the TD in that situation. Not pre-determining that his defense is going to fail. I'm sorry but that is total nonsense. I have plenty of criticisms of that final series. Trying to score a TD one minute too early isn't one of them.

 

Edited July 9 by HappyDays

[SaulGoodman]

21 hours ago, Success said:

 

That's really not what I see, or have seen.  And when you rank rosters - are you factoring in that in this past year's playoff game, the Bills were missing 3 LB's, 2 CB's (with 2 that were starting playing hurt), and a starting safety?  Is it any wonder at all why there was a huge disparity in 1st down yardage between the 2 teams?

 

Sure. And when you rank rosters, are you factoring in that Allen’s defense was ranked #1 in ‘21, or are you judging them based on one game vs an offense that averaged 36 ppg over the second half of the season?
 

In general, I break it down as follows: 

 

Chiefs had a big edge in offensive talent Mahomes’ first two years, an edge (but smaller) the next two years, and the last two years I think Buffalo’s had more offensive talent. 

 

Allen’s had the better defense in 5 of 6 years, and considerably better in most seasons. 
 

Both QBs have “ifs.”

 

If KC’s OL stays somewhat healthy in 2020, Mahomes has a good shot at another ring, on a field where they had already won convincingly. 

 

If KC had something resembling a defense in 2018, Ford’s alignment doesn’t matter and Mahomes has another SB appearance. 
 

And if not for a Bengal fingertip on a nice deep throw to Tyreek Hill, KC’s probably facing the Rams in the SB that year as well. 
 

He’s a few plays away from 6 SB appearances in 6 years. 

You can’t be much better than Mahomes has been in the playoffs. Take out a few errant throws across 18 games, and the dysfunctional 2nd half vs Cincinnati, and he’s been damn near flawless.

 

If Allen played for Reid in KC, with the same exact accomplishments and numbers as Mahomes, do you really think you or any other Bills fan would be giving the credit to Reid? Remember that, in this scenario, Reid was fired by another franchise just 5 years before drafting Allen.

 

21 hours ago, Success said:

 

And it still came down to a missed FG.  I'd argue that there is no way KC wins that game w/ similar injuries on defense, and the Bills being relatively healthy.  

 

KC fans will always try to use team accomplishments to prop up Mahomes over Allen, and most of the football world does, too.  Rejoice in that.  Most people think Mahomes is clearly the best.

 

I’m not sure that most think there’s a big gap. I don’t even think that. I think the differences are somewhat subtle. But I do think they’re there. 
 

All opinions are valid, of course. A lot of counter arguments go ignored though, and there are some questions I’m genuinely curious about. Such as: what is it specifically about Reid that gives Mahomes such a big advantage?
 

Obviously Reid’s a better offensive mind, but McD is obviously the better defensive mind.

 

The only specific criticism I ever seem to see of McD is in regard to his late decisions in the 13 seconds game. But you can make a list a mile long of poor clock management or in-game decisions by Reid. 
 

People glorify Reid’s goal line plays, especially “Corndog,” which turned out to be a play stolen from the Bills’ allegedly unimaginative staff. 
 

He went to the playoffs several times with Alex Smith, but McD went to the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor and a mediocre roster. 
 

What is it that makes Reid leagues above McD overall?

Edited July 9 by SaulGoodman

[Mikie2times]

11 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Sure. And when you rank rosters, are you factoring in that Allen’s defense was ranked #1 in ‘21, or are you judging them based on one game vs an offense that averaged 36 ppg over the second half of the season?
 

In general, I break it down as follows: 

 

Chiefs had a big edge in offensive talent Mahomes’ first two years, an edge (but smaller) the next two years, and the last two years I think Buffalo’s had more offensive talent. 

 

Allen’s had the better defense in 5 of 6 years, and considerably better in most seasons. 
 

As for luck… some not so great luck in the playoffs:

Dee Ford. 
Having to travel to Buffalo and Baltimore. 
Concussions and high ankle sprains.

24-0 hole in the divisional in ‘19 (thanks to drops/turnovers and bad defense).
Hardman’s goal line fumble.
Missed kicks. 

DBs falling down at the worst moments.

A deficit with 13 seconds on the clock. 

Numerous TDs erased by penalty and INTs negated.

A defensive TD overturned on shaky evidence.

Depleted WR corps in the ‘21 AFCC.

 

And of course, the 2020 OL—decimated just in time to play Brady and a loaded team in the first Super Bowl true road game. 
 

If the OL stays somewhat healthy in 2020, Mahomes has a good shot at another ring, on a field where they had already won convincingly. 

 

If KC had something resembling a defense in 2018, Ford’s alignment doesn’t matter and Mahomes has another SB appearance (and likely a win). 
 

And if not for a Bengal fingertip on a nice deep throw to Tyreek Hill, KC’s probably facing the Rams in the SB that year as well. 
 

He’s literally a few plays away from 5-6 SB wins in 6 years. 

You can’t be much better than Mahomes has been in the playoffs. Take out a few errant throws across 18 games, and the dysfunctional 2nd half vs Cincinnati, and he’s been damn near flawless.

 

If Allen played for Reid in KC, with the same exact accomplishments and numbers as Mahomes, do you really think you or any other Bills fan would be giving the credit to Reid? Remember that, in this scenario, Reid was fired by another franchise just 5 years before drafting Allen.

 

I’m not sure that most think there’s a big gap. I don’t even think that. I think the differences are somewhat subtle. But I do think they’re there. 
 

All opinions are valid, of course. A lot of counter arguments go ignored though, and there are some questions I’m genuinely curious about. Such as: what is it specifically about Reid that gives Mahomes such a big advantage?
 

Obviously Reid’s a better offensive mind, but McD is obviously the better defensive mind.

 

The only specific criticism I ever seem to see of McD is in regard to his late decisions in the 13 seconds game. But you can make a list a mile long of poor clock management or in-game decisions by Reid. 
 

People glorify Reid’s goal line plays, especially “Corndog,” which turned out to be a play stolen from the Bills’ allegedly unimaginative staff. 
 

He went to the playoffs several times with Alex Smith, but McD went to the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor and a mediocre roster. 
 

What is it that makes Reid leagues above McD overall?

McD carried Reids belongings in KC until he eventually got a shot to coach as an assistant with Jim Johnson. He has literally no offensive experience in his career and played defense in college. This isn't a multi skilled defensive coach like Belichick who spent years learning both sides of the ball. He is a defensive coach and a great leader.

 

Speaking of which you have a really good defensive coach in Spags. Arguably better than McD at least as far as the X' and O's are concerned and ironically another guy McD learned from in his time in Philadelphia. Given Reids playoff record before and after Mahomes I'm inclined to agree Mahomes is a much bigger reason for the success they have had. But with that Reid is most certainly one of the better minds in the NFL when it comes to offense. His history says as much and his performance on that side of the ball in his career does as well. He also has that excellent defensive mind in Spags that allows him to focus on the side of the ball thats most impactful to Mahomes.  

 

I'm not the guy in this thread arguing that Allen is on the same level as Mahomes. But if you want a guy in the thread to argue who is gotten more competent coaching I would be happy to fill that role. It's Mahomes and it's not by a small margin.  

Edited July 9 by Mikie2times

[90sBills]

32 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

That's really your interpretation? This is weak. Everyone else saw Mahomes try to throw a TD to take the lead in the Super Bowl. But no, he tried to draw attention to a defensive holding that happened as/after he was gearing up to throw the ball. Sure. Whatever works better for your side of the debate.

 

The correct interpretation is that any QB worth his salt is going for the TD in that situation. Not pre-determining that his defense is going to fail. I'm sorry but that is total nonsense. I have plenty of criticisms of that final series. Trying to score a TD one minute too early isn't one of them.

 

You don’t think he saw the holding as he was looking directly at it? Yeah that’s my interpretation. You also have your interpretation, not the correct interpretation imo. 

[90sBills]

28 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Sure. And when you rank rosters, are you factoring in that Allen’s defense was ranked #1 in ‘21, or are you judging them based on one game vs an offense that averaged 36 ppg over the second half of the season?
 

In general, I break it down as follows: 

 

Chiefs had a big edge in offensive talent Mahomes’ first two years, an edge (but smaller) the next two years, and the last two years I think Buffalo’s had more offensive talent. 

 

Allen’s had the better defense in 5 of 6 years, and considerably better in most seasons. 
 

As for luck… some not so great luck in the playoffs:

Dee Ford. 
Having to travel to Buffalo and Baltimore. 
Concussions and high ankle sprains.

24-0 hole in the divisional in ‘19 (thanks to drops/turnovers and bad defense).
Hardman’s goal line fumble.
Missed kicks. 

DBs falling down at the worst moments.

A deficit with 13 seconds on the clock. 

Numerous TDs erased by penalty and INTs negated.

A defensive TD overturned on shaky evidence.

Depleted WR corps in the ‘21 AFCC.

 

And of course, the 2020 OL—decimated just in time to play Brady and a loaded team in the first Super Bowl true road game. 
 

If the OL stays somewhat healthy in 2020, Mahomes has a good shot at another ring, on a field where they had already won convincingly. 

 

If KC had something resembling a defense in 2018, Ford’s alignment doesn’t matter and Mahomes has another SB appearance (and likely a win). 
 

And if not for a Bengal fingertip on a nice deep throw to Tyreek Hill, KC’s probably facing the Rams in the SB that year as well. 
 

He’s literally a few plays away from 6 SB appearances in 6 years. 

You can’t be much better than Mahomes has been in the playoffs. Take out a few errant throws across 18 games, and the dysfunctional 2nd half vs Cincinnati, and he’s been damn near flawless.

 

If Allen played for Reid in KC, with the same exact accomplishments and numbers as Mahomes, do you really think you or any other Bills fan would be giving the credit to Reid? Remember that, in this scenario, Reid was fired by another franchise just 5 years before drafting Allen.

 

I’m not sure that most think there’s a big gap. I don’t even think that. I think the differences are somewhat subtle. But I do think they’re there. 
 

All opinions are valid, of course. A lot of counter arguments go ignored though, and there are some questions I’m genuinely curious about. Such as: what is it specifically about Reid that gives Mahomes such a big advantage?
 

Obviously Reid’s a better offensive mind, but McD is obviously the better defensive mind.

 

The only specific criticism I ever seem to see of McD is in regard to his late decisions in the 13 seconds game. But you can make a list a mile long of poor clock management or in-game decisions by Reid. 
 

People glorify Reid’s goal line plays, especially “Corndog,” which turned out to be a play stolen from the Bills’ allegedly unimaginative staff. 
 

He went to the playoffs several times with Alex Smith, but McD went to the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor and a mediocre roster. 
 

What is it that makes Reid leagues above McD overall?

Holy cow man. That’s a lot of whining. Mahomes is universally acknowledged as the best qb in the NFL right now. Whatever you’re doing with these posts is not changing anyone’s mind that don’t already agree with that. It’s actually having the opposite effect on me. 

[HappyDays]

32 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

You don’t think he saw the holding as he was looking directly at it? Yeah that’s my interpretation. You also have your interpretation, not the correct interpretation imo. 

 

No I don't think Mahomes thought he saw a holding that not everybody even agrees was a good call and decided to throw the ball in that direction to maybe draw a flag to run the clock down. Because that's utterly ridiculous. The kind of bizarre narrative a person only comes up with when they've backed themselves into a corner in a debate.

 

Here's the actual play:

 

 

Mahomes is looking at JuJu the whole time, pre-snap even. Very clearly that is the first read. As soon as he confirms the nearest safety's leverage he's just taking a 1v1 shot to his guy running towards the endzone. This is a TD shot, clear as day. Not a galaxy brain 4D chess draw a holdng flag shot. That's nonsense and you know it.

 

Occam's razor - great QBs go for the endzone when they can. They don't turn down open TD windows to chase perfect game clock scenarios.

 

Like I said, there are plenty of criticisms to make of that final drive. Choosing to try and score a TD over trying to perfectly thread the game clock needle is not one of them. Me, I am still baffled as to how Dawkins ended up 1v1 vs Chris Jones on a TD shot play... Just terrible situational game management in a critical moment, same as usual under this regime.

 

Edited July 9 by HappyDays