90sBills Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 1 minute ago, Success said: How so? Mahomes has more TD's, because he has had more playoff games. Otherwise, they've both been pretty great. Are you talking about team accomplishments like advancing further? He played more games because he won those head to head matchups to advance. Fair or not win loss is a qb stat. 15-3 in the playoffs to start a career is ridiculous no matter how you slice it. It’s a team game true. But when certain teams get the ball last to close out games fans players announcers focus on who’s the qb for those teams and how has he done in those situations. Because those are defining moments for QBs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Just now, 90sBills said: He played more games because he won those head to head matchups to advance. Fair or not win loss is a qb stat. 15-3 in the playoffs to start a career is ridiculous no matter how you slice it. It’s a team game true. But when certain teams get the ball last to close out games fans players announcers focus on who’s the qb for those teams and how has he done in those situations. Because those are defining moments for QBs. You lost me at "win/loss is a qb stat." That ain't football. If it's the perception of some football fans or pundits, they're not being logical about the sport. It's an emotional reaction, which I understand many have, but it's meaningless in a debate of "better QB," unless either QB clearly outperformed the other in the games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 4 minutes ago, Success said: As though its apples to apples? I thought hard about it. I'm good. Thanks, though. Oh right. I can’t believe how dissimilar the debates are between the top 2 QB’s of their era, one who has won multiple titles and beaten the other in the playoffs routinely though the first part of their careers paired with a HoF coach, and another who achieved statistical greatness without advancing nearly as far in the playoffs. Definitely apples to orangutans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Just now, FireChans said: Oh right. I can’t believe how dissimilar the debates are between the top 2 QB’s of their era, one who has won multiple titles and beaten the other in the playoffs routinely though the first part of their careers paired with a HoF coach, and another who achieved statistical greatness without advancing nearly as far in the playoffs. Definitely apples to orangutans. Well, you got the "paired w/ a HoF coach" right. But, I guess we're to conclude that makes no difference in a QB or team's success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 2 minutes ago, Success said: Well, you got the "paired w/ a HoF coach" right. But, I guess we're to conclude that makes no difference in a QB or team's success. 11 minutes ago, FireChans said: Think hard about what side of that settled debate you sound like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90sBills Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 6 minutes ago, Success said: You lost me at "win/loss is a qb stat." That ain't football. If it's the perception of some football fans or pundits, they're not being logical about the sport. It's an emotional reaction, which I understand many have, but it's meaningless in a debate of "better QB," unless either QB clearly outperformed the other in the games. That might not be football to you. It’s been football my entire life. That’s how records are kept for quarterbacks like it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 After reading through the thread, it seems to shake out this way: If you believe football to be a sport of individual achievement - say, tennis, golf, maybe the high jump - you think Mahomes is clearly better, because of what KC has accomplished. If, however, you see football as a team game, where coaches, key contributions from other players, and injuries can have an impact - you might think Allen is as good, or even better. I'd conclude w/ the following: I can name a few players on KC's defense who had impact/game-changing plays in this past year's playoff match-up, including the pressure from Chris Jones at the end, which I believe changed the outcome. Can anyone name one such play from a Bills defender? I'd count the goal-line fumble as a bit flukey, and balanced by the terrible coaching decision to fake the punt. I can't think of another single play anyone on the Bills defense made that game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 21 minutes ago, 90sBills said: Fair or not win loss is a qb stat. Right. The top 2 QBs in football last year were Brock Purdy and Lamar Jackson. Followed very closely by Jared Goff and Dak Prescott. Everybody has been saying this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 1 minute ago, HappyDays said: Right. The top 2 QBs in football last year were Brock Purdy and Lamar Jackson. Followed very closely by Jared Goff and Dak Prescott. Everybody has been saying this. If Josh Allen had 3 SB’s, I’m sure we would all hear about how QB wins aren’t real in this debate. I have found a new adage. “Folks discount QB wins only when their QB hasn’t won.” 15 minutes ago, Success said: After reading through the thread, it seems to shake out this way: If you believe football to be a sport of individual achievement - say, tennis, golf, maybe the high jump - you think Mahomes is clearly better, because of what KC has accomplished. If, however, you see football as a team game, where coaches, key contributions from other players, and injuries can have an impact - you might think Allen is as good, or even better. I'd conclude w/ the following: I can name a few players on KC's defense who had impact/game-changing plays in this past year's playoff match-up, including the pressure from Chris Jones at the end, which I believe changed the outcome. Can anyone name one such play from a Bills defender? I'd count the goal-line fumble as a bit flukey, and balanced by the terrible coaching decision to fake the punt. I can't think of another single play anyone on the Bills defense made that game. The forced fumble on the goal line was the biggest defensive stop in the entire game. Probably had the biggest impact on win probability of any defensive play that game. The Chiefs win probability was 79.1% before that play. “A bit flukey” that Poyer punched it out and legitimately saved the game. Of course, it doesn’t count really, because it’s inconvenient. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 1 minute ago, FireChans said: If Josh Allen had 3 SB’s, I’m sure we would all hear about how QB wins aren’t real in this debate. I have found a new adage. “Folks discount QB wins only when their QB hasn’t won.” I don't discount Mahomes' greatness or his contribution to the Chiefs playoff record over the last few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 9 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Right. The top 2 QBs in football last year were Brock Purdy and Lamar Jackson. Followed very closely by Jared Goff and Dak Prescott. Everybody has been saying this. A QB stat not THE ONLY QB stat. You make it sound like he was arguing QB's get ranked by wins and losses and that's it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90sBills Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 11 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Right. The top 2 QBs in football last year were Brock Purdy and Lamar Jackson. Followed very closely by Jared Goff and Dak Prescott. Everybody has been saying this. Exactly. For the regular season. That’s why Mahomes is the best playoffs qb. Now you’re getting it! Good for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Just now, HappyDays said: I don't discount Mahomes' greatness or his contribution to the Chiefs playoff record over the last few years. This argument has been happening since football has existed. I’m old enough to remember that Montana/Brady was a debate because Montana was 4-0 in the big one when Brady was 4-2. When Josh finishes his career with 1+ SB wins, they will absolutely be used by fans to rank him ahead of guys like Marino, Kelly etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 This should come w trigger warning😂😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Just now, FireChans said: If Josh Allen had 3 SB’s, I’m sure we would all hear about how QB wins aren’t real in this debate. I have found a new adage. “Folks discount QB wins only when their QB hasn’t won.” The forced fumble on the goal line was the biggest defensive stop in the entire game. Probably had the biggest impact on win probability of any defensive play that game. The Chiefs win probability was 79.1% before that play. “A bit flukey” that Poyer punched it out and legitimately saved the game. Of course, it doesn’t count really, because it’s inconvenient. So, from what I can tell - you're arguing on one thread that McDermott is a middlin' coach at best, which apparently makes no difference to the success of the team compared to KC w/ Reid? The difference between Allen and Mahomes in the playoff game this year was that the Bills defense - sans their LB's and most of the secondary - gave no resistance whatsoever. The disparity in average yards gained on 1st down wasn't because Mahomes is so wildly better than Allen. And the Bills were still a missed FG from tying that game at the end. If you & others just want to gauge by end results, with literally nothing else factored in - I can't convince you, or make any good argument that can counter that within that limited parameter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Just now, Matt_In_NH said: A QB stat not THE ONLY QB stat. You make it sound like he was arguing QB's get ranked by wins and losses and that's it. Allen has better playoff stats than Mahomes over the course of their careers. I've mostly avoided this thread because the back and forth arguments are entirely predictable and have been done to death. It's boring at this point. Personally I think since 2020 Allen and Mahomes have alternated. Mahomes was better in 2020 and 2022, Allen was better in 2021 and 2023. But it really doesn't matter which QB is #1 and which is #2. Whatever difference exists between Allen and Mahomes is not the reason they have 4 Super Bowl appearances to our 0. For the record I think if Manning and Brady had swapped places their playoff success would also be swapped. I say that even with the belief that Brady was a little better than Manning throughout their careers. People just put way way too much emphasis on that sliver of difference that exists between two great players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Just now, Success said: So, from what I can tell - you're arguing on one thread that McDermott is a middlin' coach at best, which apparently makes no difference to the success of the team compared to KC w/ Reid? The difference between Allen and Mahomes in the playoff game this year was that the Bills defense - sans their LB's and most of the secondary - gave no resistance whatsoever. The disparity in average yards gained on 1st down wasn't because Mahomes is so wildly better than Allen. And the Bills were still a missed FG from tying that game at the end. If you & others just want to gauge by end results, with literally nothing else factored in - I can't convince you, or make any good argument that can counter that within that limited parameter. Brother, you were trying to argue that Chris Jones disrupting a pass into incomplete on 2nd and 7 was super impactful play. a forced fumble out of the end zone that kept 7 points off the board and gave Buffalo the ball back in a one score game was a fluke and doesn’t count. Because, reasons. Talk about setting up limited parameters. Name a play that Josh Allen did to win the game vs Kansas City last year, but don’t include his flukey TD’s. Because I said so. 1 minute ago, HappyDays said: For the record I think if Manning and Brady had swapped places their playoff success would also be swapped. I say that even with the belief that Brady was a little better than Manning throughout their careers. People just put way way too much emphasis on that sliver of difference that exists between two great players YES YES YES. Finally. My heart is full. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 3 minutes ago, FireChans said: Brother, you were trying to argue that Chris Jones disrupting a pass into incomplete on 2nd and 7 was super impactful play. a forced fumble out of the end zone that kept 7 points off the board and gave Buffalo the ball back in a one score game was a fluke and doesn’t count. Because, reasons. Talk about setting up limited parameters. Name a play that Josh Allen did to win the game vs Kansas City last year, but don’t include his flukey TD’s. Because I said so. YES YES YES. Finally. My heart is full. Which ones lol He had 3 of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Just now, GoBills808 said: Which ones lol He had 3 of them Can you just admit you’re a “Peyton Manning would be better than Brady if he was in New England” guy like @HappyDays. Just let yourself be free. He has a space at the table for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 2 minutes ago, FireChans said: Can you just admit you’re a “Peyton Manning would be better than Brady if he was in New England” guy like @HappyDays. Just let yourself be free. He has a space at the table for you. No thanks I'm good just having a blast watching you stan for Sean McDermott and Alex Smith by dumping on Andy Reid and Josh Allen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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