How close is Allen to Mahomes if all things were equal?

[Success]

These debates always sound like people are comparing golfers, or tennis players.

 

Most agree that Reid is the best coach in the league.  Few have McDermott in the top tier.

 

The discussion ends there for rational fans. But, perception is everything in football.  Mahomes has titles, Josh doesn't.  So Mahomes is obviously way better.

 

7 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

Kills me that people think Mahomes has had everything one could want. To date, he hasn't had one "loaded," balanced roster. Horrible WR play last year, weak tackle play the last two years, depleted/awful OL in 2020, usually a weak running game, and weak/average defense almost every year to date. 

 

Also kills me that people think Allen's had poor rosters in recent years. They've been among the best by pretty much any measure since 2020 or so. 

 

 

 

Gosh - that really does sound like it would tough to deal with.

 

 

Edited July 3 by Success

[Billl]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

You mean like what happened to Josh Allen?

 

Except Allen wasn’t given the opportunity to take the lead like Mahomes was. A coin toss made it so that Allen wasn’t allowed an opportunity. 

 

Another time that Mahomes was given an opportunity that Allen wasn’t. 

 

 

You mean the game where Allen led the Bills down the field and his kicker missed the kick? 

 

Butker didn’t miss for Mahomes.

Another time that Mahomes was gifted an opportunity from a teammate that Allen wasn’t .

 

These are perfect examples of how the legend of Mahomes is based upon opportunities that Mahomes was gifted.

 

Put another way, these are perfect examples of times where

Mahomes earned “legend” status with performances that Allen wasn’t allowed to have because he physically wasn’t allowed an opportunity to take the lead in OT against KC, and his kicker missed the kick that Mahomes kicker never misses.

 

If Butker missed the kick in 0:13, does that negate Mahomes performance? If MVS dropped the catch against the Bills, does that negate Mahomes performance?

“Gifted”. Butker missed two kicks in the 0:13 game.  It didn’t matter

 

Tyreek dropped a perfect deep pass on the first drive of the game and then Hardman fumbled a punt inside his own 5 yard line in the AFFCG against the Bills.  It didn’t matter.

 

Hardman fumbled through the end zone from the 1 yard line in last year’s divisional.  It didn’t matter.

 

You’re proving my point that Josh has had just as much luck, good and bad, as Mahomes.  Why don’t you mention all of the dropped passes and punts against the Texans in 2019 that led to a 24-0 deficit a week after Josh and the Bills went from leading 16-0 to losing 22-19?  
 

Drops happen.  Fumbles happen.  Missed kicks happen.  You’re still allowed to win games even when everything doesn’t go perfectly.  

[Success]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

“Gifted”. Butker missed two kicks in the 0:13 game.  It didn’t matter

 

Tyreek dropped a perfect deep pass on the first drive of the game and then Hardman fumbled a punt inside his own 5 yard line in the AFFCG against the Bills.  It didn’t matter.

 

Hardman fumbled through the end zone from the 1 yard line in last year’s divisional.  It didn’t matter.

 

You’re proving my point that Josh has had just as much luck, good and bad, as Mahomes.  Why don’t you mention all of the dropped passes and punts against the Texans in 2019 that led to a 24-0 deficit a week after Josh and the Bills went from leading 16-0 to losing 22-19?  
 

Drops happen.  Fumbles happen.  Missed kicks happen.  You’re still allowed to win games even when everything doesn’t go perfectly.  

 

So, it's not a team game after all.

 

Who knew?

 

[SaulGoodman]

5 hours ago, Rampant Buffalo said:

 

Allen's receivers had 160 yards of drops in this most recent playoff loss. Show me a postseason game where Mahomes' receivers came anywhere close to doing that.

 

This past season, Mahomes had a Hall of Fame offensive mind drawing up plays (Andy Reid), a Hall of Fame TE, an outstanding interior OL, a good #1 WR in the form of Rashee Rice. Rice was still learning early in the season, but was a good player late season and in the postseason. In other words, he was the polar opposite of Diggs. If I'm an NFL QB, I'd ten times rather have Mahomes' situation than Allen's. Obviously.

 

KC's offense was the butt of jokes all year and there was a season-long narrative that Mahomes didn't have enough offensive help to go deep in the playoffs, even with a dramatically improved defense. The tackles played poorly, WRs dropped or fumbled every other ball, the running game was okay but not exceptional, and Kelce's lost a step. Rice developed into a pretty reliable WR eventually, but he wasn't a legit #1. 

 

It's crazy to argue that Allen had less offensive talent around him last year. His WRs were better, tackles were better, running game was better, and he had two good TEs, including a budding star. 

 

If someone had told you before the divisional round that KC's offensive talent (minus Mahomes) was better than Buffalo's, you'd have laughed in their face. This only became a narrative after that game. 

 

 

[Success]

2 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

KC's offense was the butt of jokes all year and there was a season-long narrative that Mahomes didn't have enough offensive help to go deep in the playoffs, even with a dramatically improved defense. The tackles played poorly, WRs dropped or fumbled every other ball, the running game was okay but not exceptional, and Kelce's lost a step. Rice developed into a pretty reliable WR eventually, but he wasn't a legit #1. 

 

It's crazy to argue that Allen had less offensive talent around him last year. His WRs were better, tackles were better, running game was better, and he had two good TEs, including a budding star. 

 

If someone had told you before the divisional round that KC's offensive talent (minus Mahomes) was better than Buffalo's, you'd have laughed in their face. This only became a narrative after that game. 

 

 

 

Because KC's receivers actually played a lot better during the game.  The guys who were dropping passes all year made spectacular catches.  Meanwhile, Diggs & others were dropping dimes.

 

[Einstein]

54 minutes ago, Billl said:

“Gifted”. Butker missed two kicks in the 0:13 game.  It didn’t matter

 

Tyreek dropped a perfect deep pass on the first drive of the game and then Hardman fumbled a punt inside his own 5 yard line in the AFFCG against the Bills.  It didn’t matter.

 

Hardman fumbled through the end zone from the 1 yard line in last year’s divisional.  It didn’t matter.

 

You’re proving my point that Josh has had just as much luck, good and bad, as Mahomes.  Why don’t you mention all of the dropped passes and punts against the Texans in 2019 that led to a 24-0 deficit a week after Josh and the Bills went from leading 16-0 to losing 22-19?  
 

Drops happen.  Fumbles happen.  Missed kicks happen.  You’re still allowed to win games even when everything doesn’t go perfectly.  

 

You're making my point for me but dont seem to realize it.

[GoBills808]

22 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

KC's offense was the butt of jokes all year and there was a season-long narrative that Mahomes didn't have enough offensive help to go deep in the playoffs, even with a dramatically improved defense. The tackles played poorly, WRs dropped or fumbled every other ball, the running game was okay but not exceptional, and Kelce's lost a step. Rice developed into a pretty reliable WR eventually, but he wasn't a legit #1. 

 

It's crazy to argue that Allen had less offensive talent around him last year. His WRs were better, tackles were better, running game was better, and he had two good TEs, including a budding star. 

 

If someone had told you before the divisional round that KC's offensive talent (minus Mahomes) was better than Buffalo's, you'd have laughed in their face. This only became a narrative after that game. 

 

 

Wrong wrong wrong

 

I said the entire end of the season and the week leading up to the game that KC had the better weapons on offense which would prove to be the difference right @SWATeam

[SaulGoodman]

1 hour ago, Success said:

Most agree that Reid is the best coach in the league.  Few have McDermott in the top tier.

 

Many now agree that Reid is the best coach in the league. Before Mahomes, no one thought that. And 5 years before Mahomes came along, Reid was fired by Philly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't fire a guy who is considered the best coach in the league. 

 

As for McD, the only ranking I've seen recently had him in the top 10. It's an opinion that few have him ranked highly, and I think it's an inaccurate one. He might not be considered top tier, but higher than most. 

 

1 hour ago, Success said:

 

The discussion ends there for rational fans. 

 

It's interesting that no one ever seems to break down in specific terms what makes Reid such a massive advantage vs McD. Just a lot of talk about a few late game decisions. You might be aware, but Reid's had a reputation for poor in-game decisions himself. In fact, he's probably made many more game management blunders in his coaching career than McD. 

 

1 hour ago, Success said:

 

 

Gosh - that really does sound like it would tough to deal with.

 

Who said anything was tough to deal with? 

[SaulGoodman]

29 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Because KC's receivers actually played a lot better during the game.  The guys who were dropping passes all year made spectacular catches.  Meanwhile, Diggs & others were dropping dimes.

 

 

Name one spectacular catch. By far the most spectacular catch in that game was by a Bills WR. 

 

Also, there's more to playing WR than catching the ball, you know. At no point in the season did KC have more than one WR that defenses had to respect. 

[Success]

2 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Name one spectacular catch. By far the most spectacular catch in that game was by a Bills WR. 

 

Also, there's more to playing WR than catching the ball, you know. At no point in the season did KC have more than one WR that defenses had to respect. 

 

Scantling had 2 catches of about 30 yards each that were probably his best catches of the season.

 

If Diggs hauls in a perfect 60 yarder, KC probably doesn't repeat.

 

Mahomes isn't better than Allen, imo.  He has had better teams, better coaching, and better circumstances.  And better luck.

 

[SaulGoodman]

5 hours ago, Lionel Hutz said:

I think the gap between Allen and Mahomes is much closer than the gap between Reid and McDermott.

 

Chiefs would still be a playoff team without Mahomes but the Bills wouldn't without Allen.

Based on?

 

The Bills were a playoff team with Tyrod Taylor and a far worse roster. Why couldn’t McD do it with this team?

KC doesn’t make the playoffs last year without Mahomes. Hell, they flirted with missing the postseason with him. If they had Tyrod Taylor, they’d have missed the postseason and definitely wouldn’t have sniffed a Super Bowl. 

 

Edited July 3 by SaulGoodman

[SaulGoodman]

14 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Scantling had 2 catches of about 30 yards each that were probably his best catches of the season.

 

If Diggs hauls in a perfect 60 yarder, KC probably doesn't repeat.

 

So when you said the WRs were making spectacular catches, what you meant was that a player who was terrible all year actually held onto the ball a couple times? Hell, I could've tipped you off that there weren't going to be nearly as many focus drops in the playoffs. 

 

Does this mean that every catch that Kadarious Toney makes in the future is going to be spectacular?

 

[90sBills]

4 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

So when you said the WRs were making spectacular catches, what you meant was that a player who was terrible all year actually held onto the ball a couple times? Hell, I could've tipped you off that there weren't going to be nearly as many focus drops in the playoffs. 

 

Does this mean that every catch that Kadarious Toney makes in the future is going to be spectacular?

 

That first MVS catch along the sideline was pretty spectacular regardless of who caught it. 

[Success]

17 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

So when you said the WRs were making spectacular catches, what you meant was that a player who was terrible all year actually held onto the ball a couple times? Hell, I could've tipped you off that there weren't going to be nearly as many focus drops in the playoffs. 

 

Does this mean that every catch that Kadarious Toney makes in the future is going to be spectacular?

 

 

I mean, you asked.  KC fans were over the moon that Scantling came through - and they were great catches.

 

Your narratives aren't working, which is why you keep changing them. But it's fine.  You think Mahomes is a better QB.  I disagree w/ that.  The world will keep on turning.

 

[SaulGoodman]

16 minutes ago, Success said:

 

I mean, you asked.  KC fans were over the moon that Scantling came through - and they were great catches.

 

Your narratives aren't working, which is why you keep changing them. But it's fine.  You think Mahomes is a better QB.  I disagree w/ that.  The world will keep on turning.

 

 

Which narratives don't work? You didn't even respond to my longest post. 

 

Whether or not KC fans were surprised/happy/whatever that MVS came through with a few catches is irrelevant. There were no catches in that game by any KC WR that were out of the ordinary for an NFL WR. "Spectacular for MVS" doesn't equate to spectacular. If any of KC's receptions had been dropped, fans would have been pissed. 

 

The catch that Shakir made in the endzone was easily the most spectacular catch of the day. 

[SaulGoodman]

14 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

Mahomes is the better QB. But one person can't win a championship. Mahomes has the rings because he has had the better team and coaching staff. Last year the Chiefs had a very good D but in previous years the D was nothing special. Yet they still managed to play well enough for the Chiefs to win in the playoffs. The Bills defense hasn't shown up in many of these playoff games. Allen is an excellent QB and certainly good enough to win a Super Bowl. If the rest of the team doesn't step in big moments, then the Bills will continue to fall short in bringing a Lombardi to Buffalo.

 

KC needed 38 pts to win a SB and 42 to win the 13 seconds game. They gave up 37 vs NE at home, 31 vs Tampa in the SB, 31 vs Houston in the '19 divisional, and the same point total vs Cincy that Buffalo allowed the following year. 

Edited July 3 by SaulGoodman

[MrJanuary]

2 hours ago, Success said:

 

Scantling had 2 catches of about 30 yards each that were probably his best catches of the season.

 

If Diggs hauls in a perfect 60 yarder, KC probably doesn't repeat.

 

Mahomes isn't better than Allen, imo.  He has had better teams, better coaching, and better circumstances.  And better luck.

 

 

I'm sure you'll still be thinking this after Mahomes leads them to the first 3 peat ever. And it'll be just as delusional then as it is now. 

[CoudyBills]

On 7/1/2024 at 1:54 PM, 90sBills said:

They don’t. What they are is a more important stat for quarterbacks. It’s the quarterback’s job to pass the ball not run the ball. Be a field general and distribute the ball. It’s probably why qb’s get paid the most money. To pass not run. 

Honest question, have any of the true "dual threat" quarterbacks ever won a superbowl?  

[CoudyBills]

11 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

You mean like what happened to Josh Allen?

 

Except Allen wasn’t given the opportunity to take the lead like Mahomes was. A coin toss made it so that Allen wasn’t allowed an opportunity. 

 

Another time that Mahomes was given an opportunity that Allen wasn’t. 

 

 

You mean the game where Allen led the Bills down the field and his kicker missed the kick? 

 

Butker didn’t miss for Mahomes.

Another time that Mahomes was gifted an opportunity from a teammate that Allen wasn’t .

 

These are perfect examples of how the legend of Mahomes is based upon opportunities that Mahomes was gifted.

 

Put another way, these are perfect examples of times where

Mahomes earned “legend” status with performances that Allen wasn’t allowed to have because he physically wasn’t allowed an opportunity to take the lead in OT against KC, and his kicker missed the kick that Mahomes kicker never misses.

 

If Butker missed the kick in 0:13, does that negate Mahomes performance? If MVS dropped the catch against the Bills, does that negate Mahomes performance?

 

Who is the better batter?

 

Player A: hit the game winning homer 

 

Player B: Wasn’t allowed an at-bat 

 

 

Allen didn’t miss a throw to Shakir. He was hit as he threw it.

Jordan and Brady both seemed to come out on top too.  Dismantle their successes next please...

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I think Mahomes has better situational awareness. Josh is still learning to play under control situational football. If it’s 1st and 10, we take what the D gives us. 
 

Thats hard for Allen. In the playoffs he does a better job of it. If he can do it consistently in the regular season we’d probably have a couple 1 seeds.