What is your biggest lingering question mark or concern heading into camp?

[Dablitzkrieg]

Has Cook learned to catch or pass protect yet?

[PBF81]

7 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I don't agree with PBF on a lot but I agree on this. 

 

The reasons for doubt are obvious: we lost our best wideout, another starting WR, and Brady didn't perform well statistically last season.

 

But Brady is reportedly installing his offense with new concepts we haven't seen before.  And while we don't have any marquee players on offense beyond our all-world QB, we do have a bunch of pass catchers with complementary skills. 

 

A good OC could potentially build a potent offense with this.  But there's not a lot of objective evidence to tell us that Brady will be a good OC.  Still, I hope.  McD chose him above other options and Josh seems genuinely excited about the changes he's installing. 

 

Like any fan, I'm really interested in how our motley group of pass catchers will perform - who'll step up and who'll falter.  But ultimately the performance of the WR group will depend a lot on Brady and I'm not sure what to expect from him.  To me, there is no bigger question mark.  

 

Two things to think about.  

 

First, regarding the first bolded part, Brady got credit for us going 6-1 to finish the season.  It was said it was due to his changes.  Yes, the offense did not play better and relied more upon Allen than ever before over the past four season for offensive production.  His rushing carries, YPG, and rushing TDs were at team record levels under Brady.  

 

So was it Brady, or not, as the reasons for us going 6-1?  There are a lot of contradictions in the narrative.  

 

Secondly, as to the second bolded part, McD made the change because he was taking heat midseason.  Did he really choose Brady over other options, then or after the season?  Which other options had he considered?  

 

Bonus question, have we ever heard of a proven above-average OC candidate that McD has ever considered?  

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

How can it NOT be WRs???? Anything to do with WRs, but WRs, obviously 

[hondo in seattle]

34 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Two things to think about.  

 

First, regarding the first bolded part, Brady got credit for us going 6-1 to finish the season.  It was said it was due to his changes.  Yes, the offense did not play better and relied more upon Allen than ever before over the past four season for offensive production.  His rushing carries, YPG, and rushing TDs were at team record levels under Brady.  

 

So was it Brady, or not, as the reasons for us going 6-1?  There are a lot of contradictions in the narrative.  

 

Secondly, as to the second bolded part, McD made the change because he was taking heat midseason.  Did he really choose Brady over other options, then or after the season?  Which other options had he considered?  

 

Bonus question, have we ever heard of a proven above-average OC candidate that McD has ever considered?  

 

 

 

First part, I personally never gave Brady credit for 6-1.   I think the team rallied and McD patched together a viable defense with backups.    I don't think Brady was impressive at all last season.  I'm hoping he's more effective this year with a scheme that has the concepts he likes, attacks defenses appropriately, and makes better use of Josh's skills.  

 

Second part, for whatever reason, McD has never hired a OC with a proven track record.  You ask a good question.  We went from Dennison, to Daboll, to Dorsey, to Brady.  None of these guys could be considered proven.  Dennison at least won a SB as an OC but that was under an offensive HC who was the de facto coordinator.  Daboll turned out to be a good OC despite his spotty resume. 

 

I'm sure McD had some options this offseason.  The Buffalo OC position is attractive - unicorn QB, defensive HC, perennial playoff appearances...  But whatever choices he had, McD went with Brady.  I'm hoping Brady, like Daboll, surprises some people this year but I can't make a strong argument for that being likely.  

 

If I was Terry Pegula, my biggest worry about McD wouldn't be 13 seconds  or some of the other things McD detractors talk about.  I'd be worried about his ability to build a great staff.   Both the OC and DC positions have had a lot of turnover.  And, so far, only 1 of the 4 OCs did well - and even Daboll had some issues.  

 

Josh deserves better.  I want Beane to give Josh a great bodyguard (OL) and some elite weapons.  I like how McD prepares the team, builds teamwork, and all that but I want him to give Josh a great coordinator.  

[Bruffalo]

Coleman: I hate to say it but the expectations on him are going to be huge.  It's not really his fault, it's just the situation he's been thrust into.  If he doesn't flash brightly at camp, the sky is going to start falling.

 

Center: This is quietly a big worry of mine. Interior pressure is the best way to throw Allen (and almost any QB) off his game. If we don't have a rock solid center from day 1 it could really mess things up offensively.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

32 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

Coleman: I hate to say it but the expectations on him are going to be huge.  It's not really his fault, it's just the situation he's been thrust into.  If he doesn't flash brightly at camp, the sky is going to start falling.

 

Center: This is quietly a big worry of mine. Interior pressure is the best way to throw Allen (and almost any QB) off his game. If we don't have a rock solid center from day 1 it could really mess things up offensively.

I somewhat understand where you are coming from listing center.

My counter to that concern, is that Morse was never more than solidly above average. He was never great. He was never really bad either. I think you can easily replace above average with McGovern, Anderson, or the Georgia kid. 

As for o-line I think Torrence is going to be a star, but many players have sophomore slumps. Just hope it is not him.

[PBF81]

46 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

First part, I personally never gave Brady credit for 6-1.   I think the team rallied and McD patched together a viable defense with backups.    I don't think Brady was impressive at all last season.  I'm hoping he's more effective this year with a scheme that has the concepts he likes, attacks defenses appropriately, and makes better use of Josh's skills.  

 

But that's the narrative, and that's fair because you answered he question.  In short, you disagree with that part of the narrative.  

 

 

46 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

Second part, for whatever reason, McD has never hired a OC with a proven track record.  You ask a good question.  We went from Dennison, to Daboll, to Dorsey, to Brady.  None of these guys could be considered proven.  Dennison at least won a SB as an OC but that was under an offensive HC who was the de facto coordinator.  Daboll turned out to be a good OC despite his spotty resume. 

 

I'm sure McD had some options this offseason.  The Buffalo OC position is attractive - unicorn QB, defensive HC, perennial playoff appearances...  But whatever choices he had, McD went with Brady.  I'm hoping Brady, like Daboll, surprises some people this year but I can't make a strong argument for that being likely.  

 

If I was Terry Pegula, my biggest worry about McD wouldn't be 13 seconds  or some of the other things McD detractors talk about.  I'd be worried about his ability to build a great staff.   Both the OC and DC positions have had a lot of turnover.  And, so far, only 1 of the 4 OCs did well - and even Daboll had some issues.  

 

Josh deserves better.  I want Beane to give Josh a great bodyguard (OL) and some elite weapons.  I like how McD prepares the team, builds teamwork, and all that but I want him to give Josh a great coordinator.  

 

This one is a little different.  You originally said that he (McD) chose him (Brady) over other options.   That's what was being challenged.  

 

I don't see those options.  The circumstantial evidence points to McD taking heat for a failing season;  firing Dorsey (his next scapegoat at the time);  hiring the only one that made sense and was logical otherwise;  never gave it a second thought that Brady wouldn't continue in the role after his miraculous 6-1 finish.  

 

Is there a shred of evidence that any other candidate was considered?  If so, whom, because that would also fit into the discussion.  

 

Pegula's biggest worry is selling tickets.  He cares more about that than he does winning a championship, which is second concern to all owners.  There's no evidence that Pegula has worked his way into the picture yet.  

 

IMO this season is huge.  We're a season out from McD's tenth season and from Allen turning 30 and have advanced past the D-round once during that tenure, only to have lost due to coaching blunders the following week, that you reference.  

 

McD's got a lot going on this season and has his work cut out for him.  It's a lot to ask, but it's the situation he's crafted for himself and obviously wants.  

 

 

[hondo in seattle]

45 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

But that's the narrative, and that's fair because you answered he question.  In short, you disagree with that part of the narrative.  

 

 

 

This one is a little different.  You originally said that he (McD) chose him (Brady) over other options.   That's what was being challenged.  

 

I don't see those options.  The circumstantial evidence points to McD taking heat for a failing season;  firing Dorsey (his next scapegoat at the time);  hiring the only one that made sense and was logical otherwise;  never gave it a second thought that Brady wouldn't continue in the role after his miraculous 6-1 finish.  

 

Is there a shred of evidence that any other candidate was considered?  If so, whom, because that would also fit into the discussion.  

 

Pegula's biggest worry is selling tickets.  He cares more about that than he does winning a championship, which is second concern to all owners.  There's no evidence that Pegula has worked his way into the picture yet.  

 

IMO this season is huge.  We're a season out from McD's tenth season and from Allen turning 30 and have advanced past the D-round once during that tenure, only to have lost due to coaching blunders the following week, that you reference.  

 

McD's got a lot going on this season and has his work cut out for him.  It's a lot to ask, but it's the situation he's crafted for himself and obviously wants.  

 

 

 

If Josh stays healthy and the O fails anyway, I'll blame Beane for creating a cap situation where he couldn't build a better OL or acquire elite talent for the WR room.  But mostly I'll blame McD for, once again, failing to get the right OC.

 

When I said McD had options, I mean he could have found qualified folks to interview.   And by "qualified," I mean guys with decent resumes who other teams also consider to be OC candidates.  Problematically, the very best offensive minds already have OC and HC jobs.  But  I'm sure there are some good, up-and-coming position coaches with potential who would've loved to come to Buffalo for the opportunity to be Josh Allen's OC.  

 

We don't know if McD contacted or interviewed any of them.  If he didn't, it was because he was sold on Brady.   

 

My biggest hope this year is that McD's judgment is right and Brady supercharges this offense.  My biggest fear is that McD is wrong and Brady performs no better in 2024 than he did in 2023.  

[PBF81]

8 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

When I said McD had options, I mean he could have found qualified folks to interview. 

 

Well OK, progress here.  You're right, he could have.  But he didn't.  In short you're saying that he chose Brady over straw man options, nothing more.  So no real options.  

 

 

8 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

And by "qualified," I mean guys with decent resumes who other teams also consider to be OC candidates.  Problematically, the very best offensive minds already have OC and HC jobs.  But  I'm sure there are some good, up-and-coming position coaches with potential who would've loved to come to Buffalo for the opportunity to be Josh Allen's OC.  

 

We don't know if McD contacted or interviewed any of them.  If he didn't, it was because he was sold on Brady.   

 

I'm sure that there are some good up-and-coming options that are better than an OC that led his team to improved if not optimal offensive performance as well.  And while you say that we don't know of McD contacted or interviewed any of them, it's a fair guess that he did not.  To start, we probably would have heard if he hadn't automatically planned on retaining Brady in the role, particularly given that he was riding that 6-1 narrative.  I don't believe that we were ever even teased with such a notion by him, his staff, or insiders, as typically comes out when something like that occurs.  

 

Here's the thing, one of the biggest gaps in realization on McD is that he's a control-freak.  Naturally that will never be believed by McD apologists, why would they believe that, it's a negative trait in this capacity and one that holds a team back.  We are a team, right, not a one-man show in coaching or performance, right?  But that's understandable that McD supporters wouldn't think that.  

 

At the same time, it explains McD's coaching hires and decisions, ... fully.  I've explained this many times.  With his cherished defense being what has failed us in the playoffs generally speaking, without a single one of his defensive players stepping up with even the remotest of consistency in the playoffs, it fully stands to reason that if he hired a ringer OC and the offense improved and was optimized under Allen, that that OC would be in contention for McD's job.  That simply stands to reason.  People can disagree, dislike, and argue to the contrary, but that's how things work.  

 

And I'll pose the question once again;  If Allen predated McD and our coach were fired, would McD have even made the shortlist for contention for the job much less gotten it?  I see that as being an all but zero percent chance.  

 

So why would he hire someone to shine in terms of running the offense, and with anticipated issues in team building and this idiotically ill-fitted complimentary football with Allen as our QB, when he can hire people that he can keep his thumb on?  What would be preventing him from doing that?  

 

So instead, we get yet another OC with poor performance results prior to coming here, including getting fired in-season towards the end of his second season in Carolina where he posted near bottom-dwelling offensive rankings, but that has a connection with McD via both Carolina and William & Mary and probably a significant life perspective as well. 

 

Why on earth is Brady going to rock the boat and insist on doing anything his way if directed otherwise?  Do you really see that happening?  

 

We already know that McD knows little if anything about offense, so why on earth would anyone want him to mettle into what the offense does?   And we know that he and Daboll, his strongest willed OC had issues despite those details not having come out.  

 

So when you say that he had options, he did, but he chose not to pursue any real options, and for sure nothing that everyone around the league would applaud other than via narrative.  

 

 

8 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

My biggest hope this year is that McD's judgment is right and Brady supercharges this offense.  My biggest fear is that McD is wrong and Brady performs no better in 2024 than he did in 2023.  

 

We all hope that.  We all want a championship.  This season would be fine with me in that regard, then we can relax and start working on #2 under Allen.  

 

BUT, think about what we're hoping for here.  We're hoping that an OC very light on experience and one with bottom level performance and that was fired after not even 30 games, plus a few interim here with offensive performance trending downward on his watch, is the answer on a team whose offensive philosophy isn't built around the big-arm and creativity of our trending all-time NFL best QB, no, it's built around complimentary football and now a shorter high-percentage passing game, and that built around secondary receivers none of which have ever cemented themselves as much beyond JAG WRs. 

 

Allen posted three of his worst 18 career ratings last season under Brady, out of 7 games.  That's more than any other season combined and only 6 of the others came under Dorsey (one) or in years since his early '18 and '19 pre-Diggs years.  

 

His completion % under Brady was his worst since his inaugural seasons after which many were calling for moving on from him if you'll recall, and only marginally higher than it was back then when everyone was complaining.  That's been hidden because the year end aggregate number was reasonable because under Dorsey it was much higher.  

 

In the playoffs Allen posted his fewest yards thrown in all of our playoff games under McD, bottom 2, with our KC game having been the worst, Pitt second worst.  Does this make any sense to you whatsoever given Allen's strengths?  ... particularly coupled with him running so much?   He had his greatest number of rushing attempts this past season in the playoffs  in the KC game, and more rushing attempts per game than any other postseason.  

 

Brady had Allen running the ball at a record pace of 153 carries per season, which is 23% more than in the season with his greatest number of carries, yet, with nearly 100 fewer yards than in his two greatest rushing yard seasons otherwise.  

 

Brady also had Allen's passing YPG significantly less than in any of the past four seasons otherwise.  

 

Absolutely none of this makes much sense given who Allen is, ... unless, they have no answer on how to get better passing out of Allen.  For anyone to suggest that our team is best of with Allen throwing as little as possible in his career, ... LOL, honestly, 

 

BTW, I'm not necessarily linking you with any of these viewpoints, I'm merely pointing it all out.  

 

But to bring this full circle, sure, we all hope that Brady's the answer, that McD really isn't driving what our offense does, and that Brady and he will bring home the hardware, but McD's had going into 9 seasons now to have his judgement right and this is as far off as it's ever been.  The question is why.  Some know the answer to that, others may never understand.  How many seasons do we have to wait and see whether McD's got it right for OC finally?  

 

I for one have seen enough and while there's some percentage chance that Brady pulls it off, but it's gotta be very low.  

 

Hope and expectations based upon available data and information are two different things.  We hope every season, even during the drought years.  

 

 

Edited June 28 by PBF81

[BillsVet]

On 6/24/2024 at 6:34 PM, Your Brown Eye said:

How is our dopey coach gonna screw up this year

 

He already has by insisting on a philosophy that emphasizes the defense must be protected by a run heavy and thus less explosive offense.  

 

The Bills always spin the off-season wheel and it winds up on the same spot:  McD's vision doesn't need changing much at all.  And Beane supports that vision with personnel decisions in both UFA and the draft which fit that philosophy.     

 

The franchise needs a shift and a big move to shake it up.  Not the safe, methodical approach which views both sides of the ball equally.  They're not.    

 

At a certain point in the future this philosophy is going to run head long into personnel decisions at the most important position.  

[ColoradoBills]

21 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Has Cook learned to catch or pass protect yet?

 

Those 6 drops would have put him at 92%.  He would have been 50 of 54.

 

Sounds like you are not a fan.  I think he's pretty good.

[oldmanfan]

I suppose my biggest is Bass, although replacing a kicker is relatively simple.  But as I’ve said previously this season’s success is about Brady and designing an offense that effectively uses the talent he has.  

[Dablitzkrieg]

5 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Those 6 drops would have put him at 92%.  He would have been 50 of 54.

 

Sounds like you are not a fan.  I think he's pretty good.

True, I'm not a fan of the drops.  He's also a RB that is very replaceable 

[ganesh]

21 hours ago, Bruffalo said:

Coleman: I hate to say it but the expectations on him are going to be huge.  It's not really his fault, it's just the situation he's been thrust into.  If he doesn't flash brightly at camp, the sky is going to start falling.

 

Center: This is quietly a big worry of mine. Interior pressure is the best way to throw Allen (and almost any QB) off his game. If we don't have a rock solid center from day 1 it could really mess things up offensively.

I don't think anyone will fret over Coleman if  Samuel and MVS are ahead of him in training camp.    This WR group could be quite deep.

[NewEra]

Originally answered pass rush- but I’d switch my answer to Joe Brady-  I think he’s the key to our season just like I thought Dorsey was last season.

 

He hasn’t proven much as an OC to date, but I prefer him to Dorsey.  He gained notoriety for being the OC that didn’t call plays for Burrow, Chase and Jefferson.  Didn’t do much in Carolina (but didn’t have much of a chance with no QB) and was about average for us last season while failing to properly utilize our best weapon.  
 

Definitely my biggest concern after some thought.  I think we should be able to manufacture some pressure with our pieces, although I maintain getting pressure is the key to progressing in the playoffs.  

[julian]

23 hours ago, Bruffalo said:

Coleman: I hate to say it but the expectations on him are going to be huge.  It's not really his fault, it's just the situation he's been thrust into.  If he doesn't flash brightly at camp, the sky is going to start falling.

 

Center: This is quietly a big worry of mine. Interior pressure is the best way to throw Allen (and almost any QB) off his game. If we don't have a rock solid center from day 1 it could really mess things up offensively.

These are the two question marks I immediately think of, if there’s an area I trust McDermott to be good regardless of changes, it’s safety and defensive back.

 

 If Coleman is good out the gate, then that’s great but if it takes him some time I think they can win while bringing him along.

 

 McGovern needs to be good immediately, if he struggles that’s more deficiencies Josh has to make up for and could be costly.

[GunnerBill]

On 6/28/2024 at 3:12 AM, PBF81 said:

 

Two things to think about.  

 

First, regarding the first bolded part, Brady got credit for us going 6-1 to finish the season.  It was said it was due to his changes.  Yes, the offense did not play better and relied more upon Allen than ever before over the past four season for offensive production.  His rushing carries, YPG, and rushing TDs were at team record levels under Brady.  

 

So was it Brady, or not, as the reasons for us going 6-1?  There are a lot of contradictions in the narrative.  

 

Secondly, as to the second bolded part, McD made the change because he was taking heat midseason.  Did he really choose Brady over other options, then or after the season?  Which other options had he considered?  

 

Bonus question, have we ever heard of a proven above-average OC candidate that McD has ever considered?  

 

 

 

 

1. Brady was part of the reason. The numbers don't jump off the page, agreed. But the numbers the last 4 or 5 games of Dorsey were even worse AND his offense was so darn predictable I could almost call out the plays from my couch in London. No wonder defenses seemed to know what was coming. But the MAIN reason for 6-1 down the stretch was the defense really rounded into form before the injury bug hit again at the end of the year. 

 

2. The change had to come. Dorsey was lost. The offense was turning it over at a crazy rate (13 in his last 6 games as OC) and he was just coming out and running the same stuff over and over. You might say "the DC in the same period was struggling" and you'd be right. I was actually advocating for McDermott to give up playcalling at the same time. He didn't and he found his groove. Maybe the same would have happened to Dorsey? Possible. But he was part of the problem. As for other options... well in-season you are really restricted to guys on your own staff. The Colts tried the "wildcard from outside" approach to a mid-season coaching change in 2022. It was a disaster. Joe was the best option on the staff. After the season they interviewed Joe and Thad Lewis. People at the time were sure Thad was some sort of token interview but his work with Baker Mayfield last year was impressive and he interviewed for four OC openings in this hiring cycle. His star is definitely rising and while Brady was always likely to get this job Thad was a credible candidate and will be an NFL OC soon enough.

 

3. As for the bonus... He hired Rick Dennison who was a very experienced, Superbowl winning OC. I hated it as a hire. And it predictably sucked. He hired Daboll a very well respected NFL position coach who hadn't had success at two previous NFL OC stops but with bad talent both times and had just OC'd a National Championship team. I thought that was a good hire and so it turned out. Then he promoted Dorsey, a first time OC, from within (after strong urgings from Josh to do so). I thought that was the right move but his limitations soon showed. It wouldn't surprise me if he ends up having success as an NFL OC at some point but he will need better skill position talent because he was running a very simple, very vanilla, scheme that essentially says "my guy is gonna beat your guy with talent." And the Bills skill position talent wasn't up to that. Then he hired Joe. 

 

As for candidates they have interviewed / tried to interview previously:

 

In 2017 they interviewed Mike McCoy (experienced OC, had been a Head Coach) who was their first choice and tried to interview Brad Childress (experienced OC, had been a Head Coach) before landing on Dennison (experienced OC who was a non-playcalling OC on a Superbowl winner). 

 

In 2018 as far as I am aware Daboll (experienced NFL and college National Championship winning OC) was the only interview. 

 

In 2022 they interviewed Tee Martin (former college OC NFL position coach with Ravens) and Ken Dorsey (former NFL QB, first time OC, experienced NFL position coach).

 

In 2024 they interviewed Thad Lewis (former NFL QB, current position coach, no OC experience) and Joe Brady (limited NFL OC experience but won National Chanpionship as college OC).

 

Pretty wide range. Clear experience mattered more at the start when McDermott was a new Head Coach. Though I actually dislike the three names in the 2017 search more than anyone we have interviewed since. Which is kind of the point on hiring an NFL OC - if they are experienced and still an OC they probably haven't had much success or they'd be a Head Coach. Otherwise you are looking at younger, inexperienced but hopefully innovative. 

 

Half the league - 16 NFL teams - changed OC this offseason. The breakdown of replacements was:

 

6 first time NFL OC: Zac Robinson (Falcons), Brad Idzik (Panthers), Dan Pitcher (Bengals), Klint Kubiak (Saints), Nick Holz (Titans), Ryan Grubb (Seahawks).

 

8 with NFL OC experience but not been NFL Head Coach: Joe Brady (Bills), Shane Waldron (Bears), Ken Dorsey (Browns), Luke Getsy (Raiders), Greg Roman (Chargers), Alex Van Pelt (Patriots), Kellen Moore (Eagles), Liam Coen (Buccaneers), 

 

2 with NFL OC and HC experience: Arthur Smith (Steelers), Kliff Kingsbury (Commanders).

 

I think of those experienced names, other than Brady, Waldron and Moore were the two most interesting as potential Bills candidates. They both fall in the sweet spot for me as having had some success despite not having had a Head Coach shot. Arthur Smith and Greg Roman are both very good OCs but only if you are playing hide the Quarterback and running the hell out of the football. Moore's scheme has some similarity with what we have traditionally run as well so there would have been a bit of carry over. Waldron probably less so.

 

None of which is to say I think Brady is a slam dunk of a hire. He'd have been in my top 3 of everyone on that list personally. I am more optimistic than you are based on what he was able to do in adding some wrinkles towards the end of last year using motion, leverage and more innovative route combinations. But it is cautious optimism and he still has to prove it. His Carolina spell does give pause. 

 

It is an argument that the "you must have an offensive Head Coach" crowd have used. The small window in which to find a good OC... and then lose them and start again. Personally I think as long as you find good ones that isn't an issue. The latest change in OC came because they hired the wrong guy more than anything else. If Brady proves it and at some point lands a Head Coaching job, good. It means in the meantime the Bills have has success.

[machine gun kelly]

On 6/24/2024 at 11:22 AM, Gambit said:

I feel like safety is very concerning. We have to hope the rookie can be up for the task because our other options aren't amazing.

Im in agreement with you that safety is a concern.  The WR has lots of options now, amd the Edge rushers could improve with Ngakoue as an example and is an affordable.   Safety wasn’t the best last year as both Poyer and Hyde looked like they were slowing down.  They have been the best Safety duo in Bills history, but nothing lasts forever.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

None of us really know (obviously), but I find myself imagining if one of our division rivals had the same issues that many here are counting as strengths?  The’s pages would be filled with jibes and ridicule towards said rivals

[JerseyBills]

Could Damar emerge as a starter in year 4 under McD the DB whisperer