I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[GunnerBill]

 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

They just have totally different styles.  

 

Daboll tried to run a "gotcha' play" on every play in Buffalo.   It's that Mike Mularkey/Sam Wyche style.   When it works it creates the false sense that they are geniuses.   When it doesn't.......it's a disaster like Mularkey's entire second season in Buffalo(or Daboll last year in NY).  And that's just who Daboll is as a coach.......whether it's as an OC or a HC.  More style than substance.  Not enough attention to detail.  His 2023 Giants team was one of the most unprepared teams you will ever see start a season.  Trying to parse the HC part off implies that he's totally different as an OC.  He's not.  He'd already been fired 3 times as an OC for chrissakes.  

 

Dorsey is a more traditional play caller who is going to run plays that he thinks his team can execute and not be fixated on tricking the opposing DC every play.   That's why his offense was more consistent with less.   And also why he got almost no credit when it produced.

 

 

Daboll was too fond of his gadget plays, I don't dispute that. But his offense actually tried to win with scheme especially in the way they attacked the middle of the field with crossers and man beaters and outside with his high-low combination routes. Dorsey just tried to win by talent running a handful of shot plays over and over and as soon as he didn't have Stef Diggs playing at an all pro type level it fell apart. His scheming was beyond simple and put a really high tariff on execution. You want to argue that had the Bills done a better job of providing outside receiving talent it would have been more productive for longer? No dispute. But it was so predictable. They were bottom 5 in the NFL running motion, they were conversely near the top of the league in 2 by 2 sets from which they ran mirror concepts at a really high rate and defenses just didn't have a ton to prepare for. It was way too predictable and when defenses really started to key into what he was doing and the offense spluttered and at times stalled out he had no answers. 

Edited August 8 by GunnerBill

[Sharky7337]

I just can't wait till the season plays out to revisit this thread

[FireChans]

54 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Mike Mularkey actually beat Andy Reid in KC in the playoffs in January 2018.  He was a coach of the year candidate in Buffalo in his first year.  Is he good?   Being a good coach is about consistency.   Sloppy, inconsistent coaches like Daboll ride that roller coaster for a reason.    

I legitimately do not understand bringing in the resume of Mike freaking Mularkey into this discussion lmao.
 

Because he was a “coach of the year candidate” (isn’t every coach who doesn’t get fired before the end of the season a COTY candidate?)

 

Brian Daboll isn’t a perfect coach. I won’t even go as far as to say he’s a very good HC. I will say that he made the playoffs and won a playoff game with a crappy QB DJ looking competent in his first HC season, because he did. I will say he won COTY, because he did. I will say he’s already the best Giants coach since Coughlin, because he is. You are welcome to ignore that or say it doesn’t matter or whatever. But it is what he has done as an HC.
 

The Giants were approaching Bills drought level sadness after Eli’s wheels fell off. They were a who’s who of complete coaching incompetence. I feel very comfortable saying Daboll clears them all easy. Go ahead and tell me why Joe Judge is better lmao.

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I legitimately do not understand bringing in the resume of Mike freaking Mularkey into this discussion lmao.
 

Because he was a “coach of the year candidate” (isn’t every coach who doesn’t get fired before the end of the season a COTY candidate?)

 

Brian Daboll isn’t a perfect coach. I won’t even go as far as to say he’s a very good HC. I will say that he made the playoffs and won a playoff game with a crappy QB DJ looking competent in his first HC season, because he did. I will say he won COTY, because he did. I will say he’s already the best Giants coach since Coughlin, because he is. You are welcome to ignore that or say it doesn’t matter or whatever. But it is what he has done as an HC.
 

The Giants were approaching Bills drought level sadness after Eli’s wheels fell off. They were a who’s who of complete coaching incompetence. I feel very comfortable saying Daboll clears them all easy. Go ahead and tell me why Joe Judge is better lmao.

 

Because Daboll is in the style of coaches like Wyche and Mularkey.   Style over substance.   A lack of attention to detail.   When it looks good it looks great but more often over their career it will look AWFUL.   That inconsistency is their legacy.   Not being a minute from beating Bill Walsh in the SB or beating Andy Reid on his home turf in the playoffs.

35 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

Daboll was too fond of his gadget plays, I don't dispute that. But his offense actually tried to win with scheme especially in the way they attacked the middle of the field with crossers and man beaters and outside with his high-low combination routes. Dorsey just tried to win by talent running a handful of shot plays over and over and as soon as he didn't have Stef Diggs playing at an all pro type level it fell apart. His scheming was beyond simple and put a really high tariff on execution. You want to argue that had the Bills done a better job of providing outside receiving talent it would have been more productive for longer? No dispute. But it was so predictable. They were bottom 5 in the NFL running motion, they were conversely near the top of the league in 2 by 2 sets from which they ran mirror concepts at a really high rate and defenses just didn't have a ton to prepare for. It was way too predictable and when defenses really started to key into what he was doing and the offense spluttered and at times stalled out he had no answers. 

 

 

I guess you are just a sucker for style.   Substance results in more consistency.  As a McDermott supporter I'd think you'd appreciate that more.  When you have the horses......it's common sense to keep it simple and focus on execution.   They never had an offensive foundation with Daboll.   Their offensive line was a floating floor because of him.   It's been a strength since Dorsey took over because of that emphasis on execution instead of deception.  They were only as good as his play calling when Daboll was here.   Which was an injustice to the superior talent they had.   And unfortunately,  not everybody was fooled by Daboll.  When he guessed wrong the end result was a disaster.   Like in the AFCCG.  He was SO BAD that day that they looked like they didn't even belong there.   Just totally pantsed by Spags and subsequently looked like a fraudulent contender.   

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Because Daboll is in the style of coaches like Wyche and Mularkey.   Style over substance.   A lack of attention to detail.   When it looks good it looks great but more often over their career it will look AWFUL.   That inconsistency is their legacy.   Not being a minute from beating Bill Walsh in the SB or beating Andy Reid on his home turf in the playoffs.

 

 

I guess you are just a sucker for style.   Substance results in more consistency.  As a McDermott supporter I'd think you'd appreciate that more.  When you have the horses......it's common sense to keep it simple and focus on execution.   They never had an offensive foundation with Daboll.   Their offensive line was a floating floor because of him.   It's been a strength since Dorsey took over because of that emphasis on execution instead of deception.  They were only as good as his play calling when Daboll was here.   Which was an injustice to the superior talent they had.   And unfortunately,  not everybody was fooled by Daboll.  When he guessed wrong the end result was a disaster.   Like in the AFCCG.  He was SO BAD that day that they looked like they didn't even belong there.   Just totally pantsed by Spags and subsequently looked like a fraudulent contender.   

 

Again, there is elements of truth in this. He was outcoached by Spags twice in 2020. Not just the AFCCG but in the regular season game as well where he found a way to break down the Bills protection schemes (against an otherwise good offensive line in 2020).

 

On the oline the scheme and talent match on the oline was constantly off for a number of years and Beane, McDermott and Daboll all take a chunk of the blame for that. But it was bad Dorsey's full year too. Indeed that was and remains the most Josh had been sacked since his second season. Again I don't put that exclusively on Dorsey. Beane screwed the pooch on Saffold and on going all in on Bates based on a small sample size. But it was only really in 2023 where the oline started to come around. 

 

As for am I about style over substance, no. It goes back to where I started on Dorsey though. He was a good times rolling coach. When it worked his simplified approach looked like a master stroke. But once it went wrong, teams cottoned on and the Bills O began to struggle he wasn't the man you needed to turn the ship around. And that is the issue with scheme simple, execute high level. Once things go south your only option is to complicate in a search for answers at a time when confidence isn't high. It's easier to go the other way. As the Bills did actually under Daboll in 2019 when after the Cleveland defeat they really pared back the number of formations they were using became a lot more 11 personnel dependent in an effort to try (and they succeeded) in finding a bit more consistency.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

Daboll was too fond of his gadget plays, I don't dispute that. But his offense actually tried to win with scheme especially in the way they attacked the middle of the field with crossers and man beaters and outside with his high-low combination routes. Dorsey just tried to win by talent running a handful of shot plays over and over and as soon as he didn't have Stef Diggs playing at an all pro type level it fell apart. His scheming was beyond simple and put a really high tariff on execution. You want to argue that had the Bills done a better job of providing outside receiving talent it would have been more productive for longer? No dispute. But it was so predictable. They were bottom 5 in the NFL running motion, they were conversely near the top of the league in 2 by 2 sets from which they ran mirror concepts at a really high rate and defenses just didn't have a ton to prepare for. It was way too predictable and when defenses really started to key into what he was doing and the offense spluttered and at times stalled out he had no answers. 

 

With Daboll, there were many “easy” plays for Josh to make.

 

With Dorsey, it felt like everything was a slog. 

[BADOLBILZ]

18 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

With Daboll, there were many “easy” plays for Josh to make.

 

With Dorsey, it felt like everything was a slog. 

 

 

If that's your perception it's probably because of the decline of playmakers.    They have gradually deteriorated in the weapons department.   There was a big drop-off in talent between 2021 and 2022.   Beasley and Sanders out..........Lil' Dummy failing forward 2 spots in the pecking order?  Really?    They've gone from being top 3 in the NFL in 2020 to being well into the 20's heading into 2024.   

 

 

[Back2Buff]

13 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

One positive is that hes been willing to play ST and reportedly working hard at that prior to the injury.  My biggest concern is can he maintain the same positive mentality, work ethic, and mindset if he isn't getting the opportunities he maybe feels he should get.  That has been his issue in the past, maturity and not handling himself well.  Talent is there though, so hopefully he gets back in time to make a legit run for the 53 or takes a PS spot if not.  

 

I will say this, I think he would likely be poached from the PS if we put him there.  Much lesser players get poached all the time, and as injuries happen, some team is gonna bring him in as he is talented enough to make just about any team in the NFL.  

 

He signed in May after the draft to pretty much a league minimum salary and was looking at the CFL before the Bills gave him a chance.  No one wanted him in April, I doubt anyone would want him after not making this pretty poor WR room in Buffalo.

[GunnerBill]

13 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

One positive is that hes been willing to play ST and reportedly working hard at that prior to the injury.  My biggest concern is can he maintain the same positive mentality, work ethic, and mindset if he isn't getting the opportunities he maybe feels he should get.  That has been his issue in the past, maturity and not handling himself well.  Talent is there though, so hopefully he gets back in time to make a legit run for the 53 or takes a PS spot if not.  

 

I will say this, I think he would likely be poached from the PS if we put him there.  Much lesser players get poached all the time, and as injuries happen, some team is gonna bring him in as he is talented enough to make just about any team in the NFL.  

 

I think I am a bit lower on what the talent ceiling is there with Claypool than some. I was coming out too. I liked Gabe better than him as a prospect and I don't see anything in the NFL that has changed my mind. Is he more talented than some of the other bottom of the roster options? Yes. I don't go along with talented enough to make any 53 in the league though. I think his talent has been a bit overrated right from the start. He is athletically gifted, but his football talent isn't quite on the same level. I'm a bit more optimistic on his teams ability though. He was a very good special teams player in college. I know he got out of the habit in Pittsburgh but he did it last year some for Miami (not telling you I paid enough notice to know how that went) but this isn't like some of these low end of the roster longshots we have had before where you say "he can't play teams so he HAS to be one of the top 4" in my view. I don't think Claypool will make it FWIW. He was nearly out of the league this offseason and my guess is by next offseason he will be. But if he can screw his head on and it comes together he has enough ceiling as a receiver/experience playing teams to be in the mix for those last couple of roster spots. 

Edited August 8 by GunnerBill

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

 

He signed in May after the draft to pretty much a league minimum salary and was looking at the CFL before the Bills gave him a chance.  No one wanted him in April, I doubt anyone would want him after not making this pretty poor WR room in Buffalo.

Well I meant more if he showed he changed his attitude which was his biggest deterrent.  And things change too once guys start getting hurt, makes someone like him more in demand once players go down.  
 

And I wasn’t saying all 32 teams would want him, was saying his talent level is where he could make most rosters as he is going to be more talented than most teams bottom WR

[Chaos]

Did we get any clues about which WRs will be on the 53 for game 1?

[dave mcbride]

On 8/7/2024 at 10:14 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

If that's your perception it's probably because of the decline of playmakers.    They have gradually deteriorated in the weapons department.   There was a big drop-off in talent between 2021 and 2022.   Beasley and Sanders out..........Lil' Dummy failing forward 2 spots in the pecking order?  Really?    They've gone from being top 3 in the NFL in 2020 to being well into the 20's heading into 2024.   

 

 

You keep bringing up the fact that Daboll was fired three times as a coordinator without mentioning once who his quarterbacks were in those years. I’ll keep it simple—over a three-job stretch, I suspect that there is no OC in NFL history who was cursed with such a terrible crew of quarterbacks. OCs too often get fired for results, not for their skills, and if the players are terrible, they take the fall.

[SCBills]

25 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Did we get any clues about which WRs will be on the 53 for game 1?

Of the few bright spots.. Shakir & Samuel showed that they could be serious weapons in this offense.

 

Coleman was a mixed bag for the few snaps he played. 
 

Hollins didn’t play. 
 

Theres your guaranteed four…
 

Pretty sure the other WR’s were competing on how not to make the 53 yesterday.  

[Chaos]

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Hollins didn’t play.

Did not playing solidify his roster spot? 

[Avisan]

10 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Did not playing solidify his roster spot? 

He was already a lock.

[BADOLBILZ]

55 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

You keep bringing up the fact that Daboll was fired three times as a coordinator without mentioning once who his quarterbacks were in those years. I’ll keep it simple—over a three-job stretch, I suspect that there is no OC in NFL history who was cursed with such a terrible crew of quarterbacks. OCs too often get fired for results, not for their skills, and if the players are terrible, they take the fall.

 

I keep mentioning it because being one and fired THREE TIMES as a coordinator is absolutely incredible regardless of any perceived context.   

 

But we got the context when we saw his offense in the first half of the 2018 season.   THE WORST scoring offense thru half of an NFL season since the AFL/NFL merger.  50 years of NFL football, dave.   

 

I love that all the Daboll apologists act like the teams that fired Daboll were oblivious to the lack of talent he had to work with and THAT is why he got fired.

 

It's not at all possible that they watched him work in person for a season and realized that his offensive philosophy, design, play calling and leadership didn't promise enough synergy to warrant a second chance.

 

[hondo in seattle]

I don't know if the WR room got better, but it may have gotten more productive.

 

But let's start with my pessimistic thoughts:

 

• We lost Diggs and didn't replace him with anyone as talented.
• Joe Brady wasn't good last season.  He didn't demonstrate any ability to scheme a good passing attack.  Outside the Dallas game, he was even more inept at scheming a running attack.  

 

But here's how passing production may go up anyway:

 

• Diggs's departure has created a lighter, freer mood among the offensive players.  This might result in more productive dialogue, teamwork, and leadership from Josh.
• Brady has, reportedly, been adding more presnap movement and new concepts to the offense.  
• Only one guy truly needs to step up.  Shakir and Samuel are already legit starters.  We need one of the following to step up and prove they're legit as well: Hollins, Coleman, Claypool, Shavers, or  MVS.  Just one - that doesn't seem like too big an ask.  The others will be competent backups.  

[zow2]

Obviously we have some pass catchers...Shakir, Samuel, Kincaid, Knox, Cook...all those other WR's are a big question mark along with durability for all.  Coleman looks like he can be good but he has to get ready to play through the "handsy" stuff.  He's not a burner so DB's will be all over him and he will need to make plays while getting bumped around.  We know Josh is going to put the ball in the pass catchers hands,  let's see what they do.  It would be nice to have a Tee Higgins type guy but whatever,, maybe next year.

[BeastMaster]

27 minutes ago, zow2 said:

Obviously we have some pass catchers...Shakir, Samuel, Kincaid, Knox, Cook...all those other WR's are a big question mark along with durability for all.  Coleman looks like he can be good but he has to get ready to play through the "handsy" stuff.  He's not a burner so DB's will be all over him and he will need to make plays while getting bumped around.  We know Josh is going to put the ball in the pass catchers hands,  let's see what they do.  It would be nice to have a Tee Higgins type guy but whatever,, maybe next year.

Keon Coleman is a Tee Higgins clone

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

Keon Coleman is a Tee Higgins clone

 

I like Keon’s body control. I’m not sure Higgins has that level of athleticism, but I understand the comparison.