I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Eh........sometimes you just gotta' fire a coach to re-focus people.   They don't have to be low energy or even culpable for failure to be canned they just gotta' be the guy who was overseeing what isn't working.   It's a lot more common in other sports.   I think all of the NBA, NHL and MLB have had a head coaching/manager change in-season and had that team later reach the finals in the last 5 years.   Probably even easier in kickball.

 

Hard to do with a head coach in the NFL........but an OC or DC with a replacement in-house would be the equivalent.  Dorsey had already begun implementing the changes they needed to adapt to being a lower-flying offense.   He just needed full permission to put Josh Allen in the meat grinder if necessary.    They withheld that permission until they hired Brady and that multiplied the force of the move.   It wasn't like they were firing Bill Walsh to hire Mike Shanahan.   They swapped out a modestly regarded 2nd year OC for a recently fired OC. 

 

I know you are a Dorsey fan because he was a 'cane but I don't think he had the temprament for the job. Being a coach you have to learn to lead through failure, because it comes to us all. And as I said at the time when he lost his ***** in Miami that reeks of a lack of control. I imagine when thing started to go south for the offense he was zero fun to be around. It is in moments of failure (and every coach in every sport has them) that your leadership really gets tested. The players on offense looked miserable as hell in that period. If Dorsey struggled to control his emotions with them that probably played a part in them looking like they had the weight of the world on their shoulders. 

[Einstein's Dog]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Hard to do with a head coach in the NFL........but an OC or DC with a replacement in-house would be the equivalent.  Dorsey had already begun implementing the changes they needed to adapt to being a lower-flying offense.   He just needed full permission to put Josh Allen in the meat grinder if necessary.    They withheld that permission until they hired Brady and that multiplied the force of the move.   It wasn't like they were firing Bill Walsh to hire Mike Shanahan.   They swapped out a modestly regarded 2nd year OC for a recently fired OC. 

The one exciting aspect of the change is it seems like they will start from day 1 with the unleashed Josh version.  While it's of course risky, it is fun to watch.  An unleashed Josh can make up for a lot of WR ills.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I know you are a Dorsey fan because he was a 'cane but I don't think he had the temprament for the job. Being a coach you have to learn to lead through failure, because it comes to us all. And as I said at the time when he lost his ***** in Miami that reeks of a lack of control. I imagine when thing started to go south for the offense he was zero fun to be around. It is in moments of failure (and every coach in every sport has them) that your leadership really gets tested. The players on offense looked miserable as hell in that period. If Dorsey struggled to control his emotions with them that probably played a part in them looking like they had the weight of the world on their shoulders. 

 

No, you don't know that.   I wasn't a fan of his at Miami, either.   Weakest position on otherwise the most talented teams in CFB history.

 

But Dorsey consistently put up points in Buffalo.   Fact.  He adjusted to opponents and to Josh Allen injuries.  He was more consistent with less talent and more restrictions than the wicky-wacky, thrice-previously-fired OC turned unaccountable, emotionally unstable, finger-pointing Giants HC Brian Daboll.   Who oversaw sh!t like scoring 3 points in defeat against Urban Liar. 

 

The little tantrum Dorsey had in Miami was rightfully brought on by Lil' Dummy being a complete idiot and costing them a game where they had put up like 500 yards of offense.   Beane set the decline of the Bills offense in motion with personnel decisions like the WR dumpster diving that put Dummy in a starting gig.   It wasn't Dorsey.     And the 2023 mid-season swoon wasn't a Dorsey creation either.  The swoons have happened every season under McDermott.  As Chuck Pagano said.....McDermott's ass is so tight on the sideline all he'd need was a needle and a chain and he could pull a trailer.    That intensity has seemed to tap the joy from the team as a whole every year at mid-season.   They didn't lose to New England and Denver because of Dorsey's plan or calls they lost because of McDermott's plans and calls.   So much of the Dorsey hate was a manufactured excuse for things that were really on McBeane.   I was GLAD he was fired because McBeane had set the table for the swoon........something had to be done........and the guys most accountable sure weren't getting canned.  

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

The one exciting aspect of the change is it seems like they will start from day 1 with the unleashed Josh version.  While it's of course risky, it is fun to watch.  An unleashed Josh can make up for a lot of WR ills.

 

 

You'd think because that's probably the only way they are going to score at near the level they are accustomed to........but I am not even certain they will.   We will see how they handle it.   They've played "load management" game plans with Josh before at times when we didn't expect it.   They've largely waited until they were like 6-5 until they've thrown all caution out the window.

[GoBills808]

25 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

No, you don't know that.   I wasn't a fan of his at Miami, either.   Weakest position on otherwise the most talented teams in CFB history.

 

But Dorsey consistently put up points in Buffalo.   Fact.  He adjusted to opponents and to Josh Allen injuries.  He was more consistent with less talent and more restrictions than the wicky-wacky, thrice-previously-fired OC turned unaccountable, emotionally unstable, finger-pointing Giants HC Brian Daboll.   Who oversaw sh!t like scoring 3 points in defeat against Urban Liar. 

 

The little tantrum Dorsey had in Miami was rightfully brought on by Lil' Dummy being a complete idiot and costing them a game where they had put up like 500 yards of offense.   Beane set the decline of the Bills offense in motion with personnel decisions like the WR dumpster diving that put Dummy in a starting gig.   It wasn't Dorsey.     And the 2023 mid-season swoon wasn't a Dorsey creation either.  The swoons have happened every season under McDermott.  As Chuck Pagano said.....McDermott's ass is so tight on the sideline all he'd need was a needle and a chain and he could pull a trailer.    That intensity has seemed to tap the joy from the team as a whole every year at mid-season.   They didn't lose to New England and Denver because of Dorsey's plan or calls they lost because of McDermott's plans and calls.   So much of the Dorsey hate was a manufactured excuse for things that were really on McBeane.   I was GLAD he was fired because McBeane had set the table for the swoon........something had to be done........and the guys most accountable sure weren't getting canned.  

100% this down to the word

 

and the most predictable part is the amount of grace that Brady will be extended when his offense is almost inevitably less productive...until it once again becomes convenient to fire him when the team underachieves.

 

rinse repeat another OC another system another year of peak Allen w scraps for offensive coaching

 

 

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

No, you don't know that.   I wasn't a fan of his at Miami, either.   Weakest position on otherwise the most talented teams in CFB history.

 

But Dorsey consistently put up points in Buffalo.   Fact.  He adjusted to opponents and to Josh Allen injuries.  He was more consistent with less talent and more restrictions than the wicky-wacky, thrice-previously-fired OC turned unaccountable, emotionally unstable, finger-pointing Giants HC Brian Daboll.   Who oversaw sh!t like scoring 3 points in defeat against Urban Liar. 

 

The little tantrum Dorsey had in Miami was rightfully brought on by Lil' Dummy being a complete idiot and costing them a game where they had put up like 500 yards of offense.   Beane set the decline of the Bills offense in motion with personnel decisions like the WR dumpster diving that put Dummy in a starting gig.   It wasn't Dorsey.     And the 2023 mid-season swoon wasn't a Dorsey creation either.  The swoons have happened every season under McDermott.  As Chuck Pagano said.....McDermott's ass is so tight on the sideline all he'd need was a needle and a chain and he could pull a trailer.    That intensity has seemed to tap the joy from the team as a whole every year at mid-season.   They didn't lose to New England and Denver because of Dorsey's plan or calls they lost because of McDermott's plans and calls.   So much of the Dorsey hate was a manufactured excuse for things that were really on McBeane.   I was GLAD he was fired because McBeane had set the table for the swoon........something had to be done........and the guys most accountable sure weren't getting canned.  

 

Agree on the New England loss. That was a disaster class from McDermott. The worst defensive gameplan of this entire regime IMO. I thought he should have handed over playcalling at that point because he wasn't doing either job particularly well. He managed to find his groove later in the year and the defense played really well down the stretch until the injuries ripped the entire second level outta the side. 

 

That said, it doesn't change my view at all on Dorsey. He was a good time coach. When things were going well they kept on rolling. Once they hit a road bump he looked over his head and the offense looked miserable. It wasn't just inconsistent or failing to finish off drives... there were entire halves where they could barely move the ball. I have met plenty of those types of coaches in my life. The guys who are great in the good times but struggle to lead in adversity and I think Ken Dorsey exhibited some of those traits. 

[Alphadawg7]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

No, you don't know that.   I wasn't a fan of his at Miami, either.   Weakest position on otherwise the most talented teams in CFB history.

 

But Dorsey consistently put up points in Buffalo.   Fact.  He adjusted to opponents and to Josh Allen injuries.  He was more consistent with less talent and more restrictions than the wicky-wacky, thrice-previously-fired OC turned unaccountable, emotionally unstable, finger-pointing Giants HC Brian Daboll.   Who oversaw sh!t like scoring 3 points in defeat against Urban Liar. 

 

No, not a fact, that is you just another assumption/opinion being pushed as a fact.  Dorsey was fired last year because we were 5-5 and lucky not to be 3-7 because 2 of our "wins" our opponents blew the game winning play on the final play of the game (Giants and Bucs).  And in those 7 games (the 5 losses and the 2 near losses) our opponents record was a paltry 52-67 (.436 win %) and the Bills offense averaged a pathetic 19.8 points per game against that weak slate of opponents.  

 

So no, its not a fact that we "consistently put up points" under Dorsey nor was he ever good at making adjustments, something many of us had been complaining about his first season as OC and entered still concerned about in 2023.  Dorsey always tried to force his plan and would not adjust.  He had movement with no purpose, and that was one of the single biggest changes under Brady.  

 

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The little tantrum Dorsey had in Miami was rightfully brought on by Lil' Dummy being a complete idiot and costing them a game where they had put up like 500 yards of offense.  

 

Lol, that is not why Dorsey threw the tantrum.  What he blew up about was the fact that our OL was not able to get set to spike the ball and kick the game winning FG on what would have been the final play of a very emotional and difficult game.  And on that final drive we only had 4 healthy OL and they were gassed and had no one to sub in resulting in Tommy Doyle having to be the 5th guy out there who played the final 5 plays on a torn ACL that he tore in that game just so we could have 5 offensive lineman for the final drive.  

 

And...Despite 500 yards of offense, we still only put up 19 points and lost.

 

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Beane set the decline of the Bills offense in motion with personnel decisions like the WR dumpster diving that put Dummy in a starting gig.  

 

Beane did not intend for him to be the starter, he signed Crowder, a proven slot player to come in and compete for that spot and then drafted Shakir to be the future of the spot.  But Crowder got hurt and that changed the situation.  

 

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

So much of the Dorsey hate was a manufactured excuse for things that were really on McBeane.   I was GLAD he was fired because McBeane had set the table for the swoon........something had to be done........and the guys most accountable sure weren't getting canned.  

 

Nope...so much of the Dorsey hate was because we were 5-5 (and lucky to even have 5 wins) and well out of the playoff race going into week 11 because the offense was averaging 19.8 points per game against BAD opponents in 7 of our first 10 games.  And this was after he had an uninspiring first season as an OC already.  He was not good at using the personnel on the roster, he was not good at making adjustments, he was not good at movement with purpose pre-snap, he was not good at creating consistency within the offense.  

 

None of that excuses McD from any criticisms, but this notion people had misguided anger at Dorsey is just not at all remotely accurate.  

 

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That said, it doesn't change my view at all on Dorsey. He was a good time coach. When things were going well they kept on rolling. Once they hit a road bump he looked over his head and the offense looked miserable. It wasn't just inconsistent or failing to finish off drives... there were entire halves where they could barely move the ball. I have met plenty of those types of coaches in my life. The guys who are great in the good times but struggle to lead in adversity and I think Ken Dorsey exhibited some of those traits. 

 

Agree @GunnerBill about your description here and like I said above, that was against our weakest stretch of our schedule as well where we should have been blowing most of those teams out instead of losing or squeeking out wins.

Edited August 7 by Alphadawg7

[BillsVet]

13 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but this is a creative way to create a narrative.  "After Josh" is just a way of not counting Josh given you still counted the rest of his draft.  So out the gate that makes it appear even more skewed defense.  Then you left 2 drafts out where 3 of the 4 picks were offense in TE, OL, and WR.  

 

So if someone was to lay out the full draft history it would be 14 draft picks...7 defensive and 7 offensive.  But writing your way changes the narrative to look more defensive heavy.

 

The past 3 drafts we have gone 4 offensive players and 2 defensive players with our first 2 picks.  So it’s been a clear effort to prioritize the offense in the most recent years as Josh has been entering his prime.

 

You missed the whole point.  They invested in 2018 on Josh Allen.  The immediate need therefore was to surround him with talent, not 5 or 6 years down the road.  

 

Their plan was to buy or trade for veterans and pay them beyond rookie wages in 2019-20.  In fact, the Bills have not drafted and developed one WR1 or WR2 type guy since 2017.    

 

We are here talking about this WR issue for the 4th straight off-season because the team prioritizes their premium draft picks away from supporting Josh...until there's an emergency like last year.  You know, when they missed out on the top WRs and had to trade up to take a flex TE.  Or this year, taking the 8th WR off the board.

 

Fact is, this team only prioritizes receivers when it's absolutely necessary.  But they'll load up on DL year after year because someone there can't live without as many as they deem necessary.      

Edited August 7 by BillsVet

[Einstein's Dog]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You'd think because that's probably the only way they are going to score at near the level they are accustomed to........but I am not even certain they will.   We will see how they handle it.   They've played "load management" game plans with Josh before at times when we didn't expect it.   They've largely waited until they were like 6-5 until they've thrown all caution out the window.

I'm hoping it's a preplanned ride or die on Josh.  If the first couple of reads aren't there, it's up to Josh to improvise.  Get out of the pocket and make something happen.   

 

If the plan is to make Josh the focal point of the offense in a dual threat capacity by surrounding him with a non-prima donna, sure handed Receiving core, that seems like an exciting way to go.

[FireChans]

10 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

100% this down to the word

 

and the most predictable part is the amount of grace that Brady will be extended when his offense is almost inevitably less productive...until it once again becomes convenient to fire him when the team underachieves.

 

rinse repeat another OC another system another year of peak Allen w scraps for offensive coaching

 

 

Not to me.  Joey boy is McD's last OC hire in my book unless he gets hired away. I don't think its fair to punish McD for hiring a great coordinator who we then lose, but I also don't think he gets another scapegoat. This is it if it fails (for me).

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No, not a fact, that is you just another assumption/opinion being pushed as a fact.  Dorsey was fired last year because we were 5-5 and lucky not to be 3-7 because 2 of our "wins" our opponents blew the game winning play on the final play of the game (Giants and Bucs).  And in those 7 games (the 5 losses and the 2 near losses) our opponents record was a paltry 52-67 (.436 win %) and the Bills offense averaged a pathetic 19.8 points per game against that weak slate of opponents.  

 

So no, its not a fact that we "consistently put up points" under Dorsey nor was he ever good at making adjustments, something many of us had been complaining about his first season as OC and entered still concerned about in 2023.  Dorsey always tried to force his plan and would not adjust.  He had movement with no purpose, and that was one of the single biggest changes under Brady.  

 

 

Lol, that is not why Dorsey threw the tantrum.  What he blew up about was the fact that our OL was not able to get set to spike the ball and kick the game winning FG on what would have been the final play of a very emotional and difficult game.  And on that final drive we only had 4 healthy OL and they were gassed and had no one to sub in resulting in Tommy Doyle having to be the 5th guy out there who played the final 5 plays on a torn ACL that he tore in that game just so we could have 5 offensive lineman for the final drive.  

 

And...Despite 500 yards of offense, we still only put up 19 points and lost.

 

 

Beane did not intend for him to be the starter, he signed Crowder, a proven slot player to come in and compete for that spot and then drafted Shakir to be the future of the spot.  But Crowder got hurt and that changed the situation.  

 

 

Nope...so much of the Dorsey hate was because we were 5-5 (and lucky to even have 5 wins) and well out of the playoff race going into week 11 because the offense was averaging 19.8 points per game against BAD opponents in 7 of our first 10 games.  And this was after he had an uninspiring first season as an OC already.  He was not good at using the personnel on the roster, he was not good at making adjustments, he was not good at movement with purpose pre-snap, he was not good at creating consistency within the offense.  

 

None of that excuses McD from any criticisms, but this notion people had misguided anger at Dorsey is just not at all remotely accurate.  

 

 

Agree @GunnerBill about your description here and like I said above, that was against our weakest stretch of our schedule as well where we should have been blowing most of those teams out instead of losing or squeeking out wins.

 

 

1) As I said,  Dorsey put up points despite having one hand tied behind his back by the mandate to not run Josh Allen.   They averaged 26 under Dorsey and 23 under Brady in-season despite that limitation.  You can cherry pick the series of modest results toward the end of his run but that was during McDermott's utter confusion stage where he was killing the team with bad calls and blitzes and shat himself trying to rush the FG block team on at the end of the Denver game.   

 

2) Dorsey had already made the adjustments that Brady got credit for 2 weeks earlier in the Tampa game.   It was obvious that they were going to have to use Allen extensively on the ground to win because the passing game weapons just weren't good enough.   But McBeane entered the season pushing the narrative that Josh had to run less.   I explained that in detail in the post you are replying to but don't want to address because it undermines your argument completely.

 

3) Yes, he was frustrated with McKenzie.......who had made numerous bone head plays in that game.   The last of which was trying to dash for the sidelines when he needed to go forward, get down and allow the team to get a kick off.   It's amazing how ignorant fans, like you in this case, can be about end-of-game situational football but it's beyond belief when a player does it.   

 

4) Crowder was a f#cking dumpster dive.  He didn't "get" hurt........he had been hurt and "kept" getting hurt.   As he had been much of the prior 3 seasons.   That's why he was signed for only $2M.   How do you not understand this?   

 

5)  3 of the 5 losses were directly because of McDermott.  His defensive play calling was terrible, his decision to fly out to London at the last minute and the sequence at the end of the Denver game.   And opening day was on Josh Allen and the special teams.  Allen threw 3 interceptions to the same safety.   Dorsey is no great OC but he was without-question scapegoated for issues beyond his control.    Sometimes that has to be done.   

[FireChans]

11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

No, you don't know that.   I wasn't a fan of his at Miami, either.   Weakest position on otherwise the most talented teams in CFB history.

 

But Dorsey consistently put up points in Buffalo.   Fact.  He adjusted to opponents and to Josh Allen injuries.  He was more consistent with less talent and more restrictions than the wicky-wacky, thrice-previously-fired OC turned unaccountable, emotionally unstable, finger-pointing Giants HC Brian Daboll.   Who oversaw sh!t like scoring 3 points in defeat against Urban Liar. 

 

The little tantrum Dorsey had in Miami was rightfully brought on by Lil' Dummy being a complete idiot and costing them a game where they had put up like 500 yards of offense.   Beane set the decline of the Bills offense in motion with personnel decisions like the WR dumpster diving that put Dummy in a starting gig.   It wasn't Dorsey.     And the 2023 mid-season swoon wasn't a Dorsey creation either.  The swoons have happened every season under McDermott.  As Chuck Pagano said.....McDermott's ass is so tight on the sideline all he'd need was a needle and a chain and he could pull a trailer.    That intensity has seemed to tap the joy from the team as a whole every year at mid-season.   They didn't lose to New England and Denver because of Dorsey's plan or calls they lost because of McDermott's plans and calls.   So much of the Dorsey hate was a manufactured excuse for things that were really on McBeane.   I was GLAD he was fired because McBeane had set the table for the swoon........something had to be done........and the guys most accountable sure weren't getting canned.  

Dorsey sucked my dude. He had one pitch.

 

The 2022 offense was more Jekyll and Hyde than anything we had seen under Daboll.

 

In 2022, Josh had a passer rating of 87.9 in second halves. Across the SEASON. The man could not adjust for *****. He could not build plays and counters and counters to counters across the season. Dabs would set up the jet motion in week 3 and bring it back later in the season with a different target and make teams pay for trying to guessing what was coming. Dorsey was incapable of doing so.

 

All you needed to do with Dorsey is figure out his pitch for the game, and you had our offense in a box that only Allen could break us out of.

[BADOLBILZ]

21 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Not to me.  Joey boy is McD's last OC hire in my book unless he gets hired away. I don't think its fair to punish McD for hiring a great coordinator who we then lose, but I also don't think he gets another scapegoat. This is it if it fails (for me).

 

 

Daboll was fired 3 times as an NFL OC before lucking into Josh Allen.   Calling him "great" is about as large as hyperbole gets.   Do you pay attention to what he is doing in NY?   He is a sh!t show.   @GunnerBill loves Daboll too.   You guys are just wrong as can be on that.   We should be in "I told ya' so" mode and you guys are still in denial.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Daboll was fired 3 times as an NFL OC before lucking into Josh Allen.   Calling him "great" is about as large as hyperbole gets.   Do you pay attention to what he is doing in NY?   He is a sh!t show.   @GunnerBill loves Daboll too.   You guys are just wrong as can be on that.   We should be in "I told ya' so" mode and you guys are still in denial.

 

Daboll was a better OC than Dorsey. I actually said when he was in the running for jobs I never loved him as a HC hire. Again - didn't think he had the temperament for it. 

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Daboll was fired 3 times as an NFL OC before lucking into Josh Allen.   Calling him "great" is about as large as hyperbole gets.   Do you pay attention to what he is doing in NY?   He is a sh!t show.   @GunnerBill loves Daboll too.   You guys are just wrong as can be on that.   We should be in "I told ya' so" mode and you guys are still in denial.

I'm not calling Daboll great. I'm saying that if Brady is great with Josh and gets hired away, I wouldn't punish McD by firing him. I don't think McD gets ANOTHER OC to throw under the bus. That was the point.

 

Anyway, you're hilariously wrong about Daboll. He won a playoff game for the Giants for the first time since 2011. It was also their first playoff appearance since 2016. He also won coach of the year by having DJ look competent for 17 games. He's a shitshow, huh? lmao. 

 

Pay attention to the GMen since Eli won a Superbowl. Talk about shitshows.

Edited August 7 by FireChans

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

You missed the whole point.  They invested in 2018 on Josh Allen.  The immediate need therefore was to surround him with talent, not 5 or 6 years down the road.  

 

Their plan was to buy or trade for veterans and pay them beyond rookie wages in 2019-20.  In fact, the Bills have not drafted and developed one WR1 or WR2 type guy since 2017.    

 

We are here talking about this WR issue for the 4th straight off-season because the team prioritizes their premium draft picks away from supporting Josh...until there's an emergency like last year.  You know, when they missed out on the top WRs and had to trade up to take a flex TE.  Or this year, taking the 8th WR off the board.

 

Fact is, this team only prioritizes receivers when it's absolutely necessary.  But they'll load up on DL year after year because someone there can't live without as many as they deem necessary.      

 

I didn't miss the point, I don't agree with your point nor do I believe it is an accurate way of looking back at our history.  Again, no disrespect, but I think you are only picking some things to support your narrative rather than looking entirely of what really was going on each year.

 

In 2018 the team was still eating a ton of dead cap and was in total rebuild mode, Josh Allen was a rookie.  You spoke of picks immediately after Allen in listing Edmunds who was chosen in the very same round.  But that is neither here nor there, so lets get into your explanation here.

 

2018 was not even in full rebuild mode yet as Beane was still in the tear down phase of clearing out the cap.  He positioned himself to go after a QB in that draft, and did just that, but that does not change the fact that he was still cleaning house elsewhere on the roster, especially the cap. 

DRAFT:  Set the tone with Allen at QB, then nabbed Edmunds to be the QB of the defense.

 

2019 he was able to start to build up some pieces and he immediately went out and signed John Brown and Cole Beasley.  DRAFT:  Beane used 3 of our first 4 picks on Offense.  And when you are rebuilding a team, you invest in the trenches first which he did with our first 2 picks in Oliver and Ford.  Of course, Ford didn't work out, but does not change the intent or the fact it was offensive heavy draft that included multiple starters.

 

2020 Allen is coming off a year where he really showed his potential and took yet another major step forward.  Beane went out and made a big trade for Diggs investing our first and a 4th to go get him to add to Brown and Cole who were coming off career years with Josh.  Now Brown got hurt, but Diggs and Cole formed an excellent duo. 

DRAFT:  We needed a DE as we were old there, and having no first AJE managed to slip to us in the 2nd and was BPA and also a major need.  Beane then went OFFENSE the next FIVE picks (including Gabe Davis) in what would be an almost entirely offensive draft with the only other non-defensive player being Dane Jackson as our final pick.

 

2021 Bills got DOMINATED by the Chiefs in the trenches and we didn't sniff Mahomes in the playoffs either.   The trenches were our biggest needs coming into the draft, especially after transitioning from our old vets as pass rushers began.  We had elite Diggs, Cole, and now Davis coming off a strong rookie season filling in for an injured Brown.  They still signed Sanders to replace Brown to go along with the other 3.  

DRAFT:  We had to over the hill starters at DE and AJE was coming along slowly as he had his rookie year heavily impacted by COVID season.  We were also picking late and were able to take Groot who slid to us after sitting out his COVID season.  NOW...I won't argue that maybe going back-to-back with Basham given we also did have AJE was too aggressively addressing this position.  However, Beanes first 4 picks were all in the trenches on the DL (first 2) and OL (2nd two picks).  When a team kicks you a** in the trenches to the point you don't look like you belong on the same field, its not out of question to go heavy in those areas.

 

2022 Bills decisions in 2021 resulted in record breaking offense in the 2021 playoffs where Allen and the offense went off in the playoff games and our defense collapsed AGAIN, but this time in the most impossible but Billsy way of 13 seconds and OT.  Once again, we did not sniff Mahomes in the playoffs and he went off.

DRAFT:  No question our biggest need was CB heading into the draft, and they took Elam then Cook, who was not only to bolster the run game but to give Allen another receiving weapon out of the backfield which they tried to address in FA but the RB backed out and went back to Wash after agreeing to come here.  We had moved on from Cole, so they signed Crowder in FA and then drafted Shakir as the future of the position.  Beane drafted Elam, Cook, Bernard, and Shakir of which 3 have hit and Elam may be emerging still.  To go along with Benford later in the draft as well.

 

2023 and 2024 Beane used 3 of his first 4 picks on offense as well, but again we are talking about the earlier drafts as you said he didn't address offense until late which is categorically not true and completely disregards the early years where Beane was rebuilding an entire roster, not just an offense.  

Edited August 7 by Alphadawg7

[FireChans]

18 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I didn't miss the point, I don't agree with your point nor do I believe it is an accurate way of looking back at our history.  Again, no disrespect, but I think you are only picking some things to support your narrative rather than looking entirely of what really was going on each year.

 

In 2018 the team was still eating a ton of dead cap and was in total rebuild mode, Josh Allen was a rookie.  You spoke of picks immediately after Allen in listing Edmunds who was chosen in the very same round.  But that is neither here nor there, so lets get into your explanation here.

 

2018 was not even in full rebuild mode yet as Beane was still in the tear down phase of clearing out the cap.  He positioned himself to go after a QB in that draft, and did just that, but that does not change the fact that he was still cleaning house elsewhere on the roster, especially the cap. 

DRAFT:  Set the tone with Allen at QB, then nabbed Edmunds to be the QB of the defense.

 

2019 he was able to start to build up some pieces and he immediately went out and signed John Brown and Cole Beasley.  DRAFT:  Beane used 3 of our first 4 picks on Offense.  And when you are rebuilding a team, you invest in the trenches first which he did with our first 2 picks in Oliver and Ford.  Of course, Ford didn't work out, but does not change the intent or the fact it was offensive heavy draft that included multiple starters.

 

2020 Allen is coming off a year where he really showed his potential and took yet another major step forward.  Beane went out and made a big trade for Diggs investing our first and a 4th to go get him to add to Brown and Cole who were coming off career years with Josh.  Now Brown got hurt, but Diggs and Cole formed an excellent duo. 

DRAFT:  We needed a DE as we were old there, and having no first AJE managed to slip to us in the 2nd and was BPA and also a major need.  Beane then went OFFENSE the next FIVE picks (including Gabe Davis) in what would be an almost entirely offensive draft with the only other non-defensive player being Dane Jackson as our final pick.

 

2021 Bills got DOMINATED by the Chiefs in the trenches and we didn't sniff Mahomes in the playoffs either.   The trenches were our biggest needs coming into the draft, especially after transitioning from our old vets as pass rushers began.  We had elite Diggs, Cole, and now Davis coming off a strong rookie season filling in for an injured Brown.  They still signed Sanders to replace Brown to go along with the other 3.  

DRAFT:  We had to over the hill starters at DE and AJE was coming along slowly as he had his rookie year heavily impacted by COVID season.  We were also picking late and were able to take Groot who slid to us after sitting out his COVID season.  NOW...I won't argue that maybe going back-to-back with Basham given we also did have AJE was too aggressively addressing this position.  However, Beanes first 4 picks were all in the trenches on the DL (first 2) and OL (2nd two picks).  When a team kicks you a** in the trenches to the point you don't look like you belong on the same field, its not out of question to go heavy in those areas.

 

2022 Bills decisions in 2021 resulted in record breaking offense in the 2021 playoffs where Allen and the offense went off in the playoff games and our defense collapsed AGAIN, but this time in the most impossible but Billsy way of 13 seconds and OT.  Once again, we did not sniff Mahomes in the playoffs and he went off.

DRAFT:  No question our biggest need was CB heading into the draft, and they took Elam then Cook, who was not only to bolster the run game but to give Allen another receiving weapon out of the backfield which they tried to address in FA but the RB backed out and went back to Wash after agreeing to come here.  We had moved on from Cole, so they signed Crowder in FA and then drafted Shakir as the future of the position.  Beane drafted Elam, Cook, Bernard, and Shakir of which 3 have hit and Elam may be emerging still.  To go along with Benford later in the draft as well.

 

2023 and 2024 Beane used 3 of his first 4 picks on offense as well, but again we are talking about the earlier drafts as you said he didn't address offense until late which is categorically not true and completely disregards the early years where Beane was rebuilding an entire roster, not just an offense.  

This is the ultimate post unintentionally demonstrating why drafting for need is a really bad strategy. CONSTANTLY playing catch up. We need more pass rush, we have to take AJE and Basham. We have to take more OL, get Cody Ford. We have to take a CB, get Elam.

[Alphadawg7]

36 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1) As I said,  Dorsey put up points despite having one hand tied behind his back by the mandate to not run Josh Allen.   They averaged 26 under Dorsey and 23 under Brady in-season despite that limitation.  You can cherry pick the series of modest results toward the end of his run but that was during McDermott's utter confusion stage where he was killing the team with bad calls and blitzes and shat himself trying to rush the FG block team on at the end of the Denver game.   

 

You are hiding in "season totals" while ignoring that Dorsey led offense averaged 19.8 ppg in 7 games in 2023 that led us to being 5-5 and nearly 3-7 over that stretch against weak opponents.  His firing was more than warranted and honestly a few weeks later than it should have been.  

 

36 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

2) Dorsey had already made the adjustments that Brady got credit for 2 weeks earlier in the Tampa game.   It was obvious that they were going to have to use Allen extensively on the ground to win because the passing game weapons just weren't good enough.   But McBeane entered the season pushing the narrative that Josh had to run less.   I explained that in detail in the post you are replying to but don't want to address because it undermines your argument completely.

 

He did not.  Allen was never used "extensively" on the ground for one by anyone.  He was still a pass first QB, always has been.  2nd, the biggest change was incorporating movement with a purpose pre-snap that helped identify coverages and also helped scheme guys open giving Allen easier throws.  Third, they have been trying to get Allen to run less almost every year as no HC or team wants their prized QB to take so much punishment. 

 

So much is made of how much Brady "ran" the ball more, but that is heavily skewed by the Cowboys game where we dominated them and so Brady and the offense ADJUSTED and kept the run game rolling as Cowboys had no answer as it was long known to be their weak part of the defense.

 

36 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

3) Yes, he was frustrated with McKenzie.......who had made numerous bone head plays in that game.   The last of which was trying to dash for the sidelines when he needed to go forward, get down and allow the team to get a kick off.   It's amazing how ignorant fans, like you in this case, can be about end-of-game situational football but it's beyond belief when a player does it.   

 

This is your opinion, nothing more.

 

36 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

4) Crowder was a f#cking dumpster dive.  He didn't "get" hurt........he had been hurt and "kept" getting hurt.   As he had been much of the prior 3 seasons.   That's why he was signed for only $2M.   How do you not understand this?   

 

Understand what?  I said the intent was to have Crowder compete to start in the slot on a 1 year deal.  He addressed the long-term solution in the draft with Shakir.  John Brown was hurt a lot prior to Buffalo too then came here and put up his career best season with Allen and was healthy all year.  

 

36 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

5)  3 of the 5 losses were directly because of McDermott.  His defensive play calling was terrible, his decision to fly out to London at the last minute and the sequence at the end of the Denver game.   And opening day was on Josh Allen and the special teams.  Allen threw 3 interceptions to the same safety.   Dorsey is no great OC but he was without-question scapegoated for issues beyond his control.    Sometimes that has to be done.   

 

He was not scapegoated...he was fired for not doing a good enough job and losing the confidence of the locker room.  To argue it after Brady went 6-1 with the same roster is ludicrous.  

[BillsVet]

13 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I didn't miss the point, I don't agree with your point nor do I believe it is an accurate way of looking back at our history. 

 

In 2018 the team was still eating a ton of dead cap and was in total rebuild mode, Josh Allen was a rookie.  You spoke of picks immediately after Allen in listing Edmunds who was chosen in the very same round.  But that is neither here nor there, so lets get into your explanation here.

 

2018 was not even in full rebuild mode yet as Beane was still in the tear down phase of clearing out the cap.  He positioned himself to go after a QB in that draft, and did just that, but that does not change the fact that he was still cleaning house elsewhere on the roster, especially the cap. 

DRAFT:  Set the tone with Allen at QB, then nabbed Edmunds to be the QB of the defense.

 

2019 he was able to start to build up some pieces and he immediately went out and signed John Brown and Cole Beasley.  DRAFT:  Beane used 3 of our first 4 picks on Offense.  And when you are rebuilding a team, you invest in the trenches first which he did with our first 2 picks in Oliver and Ford.  Of course, Ford didn't work out, but does not change the intent or the fact it was offensive heavy draft that included multiple starters.

 

2020 Allen is coming off a year where he really showed his potential and took yet another major step forward.  Beane went out and made a big trade for Diggs investing our first and a 4th to go get him to add to Brown and Cole who were coming off career years with Josh.  Now Brown got hurt, but Diggs and Cole formed an excellent duo. 

DRAFT:  We needed a DE as we were old there, and having no first AJE managed to slip to us in the 2nd and was BPA and also a major need.  Beane then went OFFENSE the next FIVE picks (including Gabe Davis) in what would be an almost entirely offensive draft with the only other non-defensive player being Dane Jackson as our final pick.

 

2021 Bills got DOMINATED by the Chiefs in the trenches and we didn't sniff Mahomes in the playoffs either.   The trenches were our biggest needs coming into the draft, especially after transitioning from our old vets as pass rushers began.  We had elite Diggs, Cole, and now Davis coming off a strong rookie season filling in for an injured Brown.  They still signed Sanders to replace Brown to go along with the other 3.  

DRAFT:  We had to over the hill starters at DE and AJE was coming along slowly as he had his rookie year heavily impacted by COVID season.  We were also picking late and were able to take Groot who slid to us after sitting out his COVID season.  NOW...I won't argue that maybe going back-to-back with Basham given we also did have AJE was too aggressively addressing this position.  However, Beanes first 4 picks were all in the trenches on the DL (first 2) and OL (2nd two picks).  When a team kicks you a** in the trenches to the point you don't look like you belong on the same field, its not out of question to go heavy in those areas.

 

2022 Bills decisions in 2021 resulted in record breaking offense in the 2021 playoffs where Allen and the offense went off in the playoff games and our defense collapsed AGAIN, but this time in the most impossible but Billsy way of 13 seconds and OT.  Once again, we did not sniff Mahomes in the playoffs and he went off.

DRAFT:  No question our biggest need was CB heading into the draft, and they took Elam then Cook, who was not only to bolster the run game but to give Allen another receiving weapon out of the backfield which they tried to address in FA but the RB backed out and went back to Wash after agreeing to come here.  We had moved on from Cole, so they signed Crowder in FA and then drafted Shakir as the future of the position.  Beane drafted Elam, Cook, Bernard, and Shakir of which 3 have hit and Elam may be emerging still.  To go along with Benford later in the draft as well.

 

2023 and 2024 Beane used 3 of his first 4 picks on offense as well, but again we are talking about the earlier drafts as you said he didn't address offense until late which is categorically not true and completely disregards the early years where Beane was rebuilding an entire roster, not just an offense.  

 

I knew the 2018 "they was outta money" argument would surface.  Didn't prevent them from giving 5 and 50 to Star or 3 and 27 to Trent Murphy.  And then, thru first half of 2018 they had one of the worst offenses since the '78 rules changes.

 

None of this book you've written removes the fact that in 2018 they drafted their franchise QB and then proceeded to put bargain bin types around him while improving the defense each year.  Even if you include the 3rd rounders from 2018-20, after Josh they went MLB, DT, DT, bust OL, RB, TE, Diggs trade, Epenesa, RB.  Didn't draft a WR until Davis in RD4 of 2020 after taking Josh.        

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

This is the ultimate post unintentionally demonstrating why drafting for need is a really bad strategy. CONSTANTLY playing catch up. We need more pass rush, we have to take AJE and Basham. We have to take more OL, get Cody Ford. We have to take a CB, get Elam.

 

I totally agree drafting for "need" and taking players out of need over better graded players is a bad strategy.  But you can't argue that about any of those draft picks outside of Basham.  Nor were many of Beanes picks bad either.   

 

BUT...EVERY pick is a "need" pick.  Bills are not taking a QB first round for example.  This idea that BPA does not involve some sort of need for the team is just not a real thing.  

Ford was a first round graded player, and I mocked Ford to us in the 2nd ahead of the draft and this board mocked me up and down about he would never reach us.  And I was someone who wanted DK badly that draft...but even I was fine with the Ford pick given he was right there as BPA and our trenches were embarrassingly bad the year before.  

 

AJE again, was BPA and someone projected to go in the first round.  It was not a need stretch it was a good pick and we followed it up going all offense until the final pick of Dane Jackson.