I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

My original comment was simply to the effect that we can't reasonably compare our offensive staff to the Niners/Rams/Chiefs/Lions as we just don't stack up

 

I'm assuming you don't want to argue that point

 

No. I don't and I didn't. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Billy Claude said:

 

You can't really say he had McCaffrey.  CMC only played 3 games in 2020.  He played 7 games in 2021 but seemd hobbled even when he played.

 

I am definitely not sold on Brady but Chosen and Samuel had career years in 2020 and Sam Darnold actually looked like a legitimate starting NFL QB for half a season.

 

Almost 100% sure that was Bridgewater 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Billy Claude said:

 

You can't really say he had McCaffrey.  CMC only played 3 games in 2020.  He played 7 games in 2021 but seemed hobbled even when he played.

 

I am definitely not sold on Brady but Chosen and Samuel had career years in 2020 and Sam Darnold actually looked like a legitimate starting NFL QB for half a season.

 

 

Yea there are reasons to have optimism. In terms of his track recored, as you say, he got career years out of Chose and Samuel and while when we look now at 2020 LSU and go "wow all that talent" the year before he arrived Joe Burrow threw for 16 touchdowns and Justin Jefferson was a middling outside receiver who under Brady dominated college football as a big slot. Now it is possible he just got lucky and benefitted from breakouts at the right time. But it is possible he played a part too. 

 

In terms of what he did last year he made the offense look like a modern NFL offense again with motion, route combinations designed to create leverage and mixing up their use of pistol, shotgun and under centre better. Which compared to the mid 00s redux offense Ken Dorsey was selling was encouraging. 

 

Now there are reasons to doubt him as well, and those are also legitimate, but I think there are grounds for optimism in terms of what we have at OC. I certainly think Joe Brady's potential ceiling is high. Much more so than I think the ceiling of the WR room is high. 

[Billy Claude]

13 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Almost 100% sure that was Bridgewater 

You are right.  It was Bridgewater.

 

I guess the correct statement is he made Darnold look like a legit starting QB for 4 games at the start of the 2021 season.  Not particularly impressive but I remember the gnashing of teeth among the Jets fans.

Edited July 24 by Billy Claude

[SoMAn]

I think the expectations for Coleman are a bit exaggerated. He’s a rookie. He wasn’t even a top 5 WR pick. 

IMO Gabe Davis will be missed more than some may think. 
Overall, this is a much weaker group. 
We have a premier QB with average receivers.  If Kincaid or Shakir miss any time, the O is in trouble. I foresee Josh scrambling for his life, getting sacked, and throwing INTs. 
Hopeful that Joe Brady has some creative play designs that can maximize the talent available. 
Interesting comparison to the Dolphins, who have superior receivers and an arguably slightly above average QB, and the Bills with the exact opposite arrangement. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Billy Claude said:

You are right.  It was Bridgewater.

 

I guess the correct statement is he made Darnold look like a legit starting QB for 4 games at the start of the 2021 season.  Not particularly impressive but I remember the gnashing of teeth among the Jets fans.

It was ok then fell off a cliff 

 

That was the year they had to bring back Cam because Darnold was so bad😂😂

 

In that sense Rhule probably fired him as cover so I won't totally hold that against him...but still Brady does not have an impressive NFL resume 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

48 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It was ok then fell off a cliff 

 

That was the year they had to bring back Cam because Darnold was so bad😂😂

 

In that sense Rhule probably fired him as cover so I won't totally hold that against him...but still Brady does not have an impressive NFL resume 

 

 

Except for going 6-1 as interim OC and 1-1 in the playoffs for the Buffalo Bills

[Kirby Jackson]

I think that the biggest divide in this thread is the “possibility” of this group performing well vs. the “likelihood” of them playing well. Someone earlier said that Peterman could outperform Mahomes. He certainly could. Justin Shorter could have 2,000 yards receiving. Those of us skeptical of the receiving room are looking at the likelihood. This group, on paper, is one of the worst in the league. Do I think that the Bills will have one of the worst passing attacks in the league? No. They have Josh Allen. The point is, if they end up with the 12th(ish) best passing attack, they would have been much higher with even an average room.
 

My biggest issue is not surrounding Josh with elite talent. He is asked to elevate role players. The entire focus should be, give Allen everything to create an unstoppable offense and be good enough everywhere else. The Bills philosophy, in the Allen era, has been to allocate $ and elite draft picks to the defense and let Allen cover for their deficiencies. They’ve kind of made more of an effort over the last couple of drafts. Although when they desperately needed a WR they traded down twice and selected the 8th guy at the position. Despite where he was picked that doesn’t scream to me the Bills saying, “we need to get Josh more help.”
 

This team lacks talent comparatively. Look at all of the top 50 or top 100 player lists. See how many Bills players are on their vs. other top teams. Could Andy Isabella or KJ Hamler end up on their next year? Sure. Is it likely? Of course not. That’s the issue. Those of us holding the Bills to a higher standard are in “wait and see” mode like the rest of you. We just aren’t expecting things that are highly unlikely to happen. We wanted, and still want, the Bills to add more weapons that are LIKELY to contribute as opposed to COULD contribute.

[Mikey152]

46 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I think that the biggest divide in this thread is the “possibility” of this group performing well vs. the “likelihood” of them playing well. Someone earlier said that Peterman could outperform Mahomes. He certainly could. Justin Shorter could have 2,000 yards receiving. Those of us skeptical of the receiving room are looking at the likelihood. This group, on paper, is one of the worst in the league. Do I think that the Bills will have one of the worst passing attacks in the league? No. They have Josh Allen. The point is, if they end up with the 12th(ish) best passing attack, they would have been much higher with even an average room.
 

My biggest issue is not surrounding Josh with elite talent. He is asked to elevate role players. The entire focus should be, give Allen everything to create an unstoppable offense and be good enough everywhere else. The Bills philosophy, in the Allen era, has been to allocate $ and elite draft picks to the defense and let Allen cover for their deficiencies. They’ve kind of made more of an effort over the last couple of drafts. Although when they desperately needed a WR they traded down twice and selected the 8th guy at the position. Despite where he was picked that doesn’t scream to me the Bills saying, “we need to get Josh more help.”
 

This team lacks talent comparatively. Look at all of the top 50 or top 100 player lists. See how many Bills players are on their vs. other top teams. Could Andy Isabella or KJ Hamler end up on their next year? Sure. Is it likely? Of course not. That’s the issue. Those of us holding the Bills to a higher standard are in “wait and see” mode like the rest of you. We just aren’t expecting things that are highly unlikely to happen. We wanted, and still want, the Bills to add more weapons that are LIKELY to contribute as opposed to COULD contribute.

I think this is probably my last post in the thread.

 

For all your jabs at being realistic, you seem to be missing some very important basic points about football:
 

- you might not care about things like the running game, defense or the cap, but football teams do. Everybody here makes fun of McDermott for talking about complimentary football, but that is what EVERY football coach in America  worth a damn believes in. The key to Johnson, Shannahan and McVays whole systems are the run game fcol 

 

- Stefon Diggs (as well as Von, White and Poyer on defense) put us in a tough spot the last few years. Those were our big contract guys, our stars…and they all got hurt or didn’t want to be here. 
 

- We have generally been picking at the end of the first round for a while now. You have to get lucky to grab a dynamic guy in that spot. It can happen, sure…but the slam dunks are usually gone. Sure, the Bills could have traded up for Nabers (maybe), but it would have cost them A LOT of draft capital and just wasn’t realistic (or even possible potentially…if it’s so obvious then why would the other team agree?).

 

Here is some realism for you. Our starting 5 targets are Kincaid, Cook, Shakir, Samuel and some combination of MVS/Coleman/Hollins/Claypool. Knox will likely get a bunch of snaps, too, but tbd on who comes off. Hamler, Isabella, Shorter…probably don’t make the team unless it is on the PS or they are undeniable.

 

Say what you want about that starting 5, but all things considered (Diggs trade/dead cap, the turnover on defense, the cap situation heading into the offseason) that’s a workable recover group. The starters are fast and reliable. 4 of the starters have played for Brady. And most importantly, Josh likes them and seems happier than last season.

[Kirby Jackson]

5 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

I think this is probably my last post in the thread.

 

For all your jabs at being realistic, you seem to be missing some very important basic points about football:
 

- you might not care about things like the running game, defense or the cap, but football teams do. Everybody here makes fun of McDermott for talking about complimentary football, but that is what EVERY football coach in America  worth a damn believes in. The key to Johnson, Shannahan and McVays whole systems are the run game fcol 

 

- Stefon Diggs (as well as Von, White and Poyer on defense) put us in a tough spot the last few years. Those were our big contract guys, our stars…and they all got hurt or didn’t want to be here. 
 

- We have generally been picking at the end of the first round for a while now. You have to get lucky to grab a dynamic guy in that spot. It can happen, sure…but the slam dunks are usually gone. Sure, the Bills could have traded up for Nabers (maybe), but it would have cost them A LOT of draft capital and just wasn’t realistic (or even possible potentially…if it’s so obvious then why would the other team agree?).

 

Here is some realism for you. Our starting 5 targets are Kincaid, Cook, Shakir, Samuel and some combination of MVS/Coleman/Hollins/Claypool. Knox will likely get a bunch of snaps, too, but tbd on who comes off. Hamler, Isabella, Shorter…probably don’t make the team unless it is on the PS or they are undeniable.

 

Say what you want about that starting 5, but all things considered (Diggs trade/dead cap, the turnover on defense, the cap situation heading into the offseason) that’s a workable recover group. The starters are fast and reliable. 4 of the starters have played for Brady. And most importantly, Josh likes them and seems happier than last season.

Any scheme designed to have Josh Allen as a role player, fits right into what other teams want. The Bills playing to “run the ball and stop the run” is an opponent’s dream. This team, as currently constructed, needs to be the Josh Allen show. The Bills don’t have the pieces around him that other winning teams do. The top of the Bills roster is very weak comparatively. 
 

The starting 5 being “workable” isn’t impressive. You need a guy(s) at the top of the depth chart that teams fear!! They have a top 10 TE and 4 WRs that would be number 3’s in most offenses (no one higher than WR 4 in Houston or Chicago). The Bills have assembled a group of pass catchers, that one of the most respected, data-driven, football minds, ranked as the 28th best group. Why would anyone defend that?

 

It’s okay to want them to succeed. That’s what we all want. Looking at it objectively though, it isn’t a good group compared to their peers. With Josh Allen, in his prime, that’s a mistake. I don’t think any reasonable person could argue that they are good enough there. At best, you hope that some of the lottery tickets are winners. At worst, you have a bunch of WRs that can’t get open and make plays. Josh Allen will need to be Superman to have this team competing for the playoffs. Thats a failure of roster management. 

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I think that the biggest divide in this thread is the “possibility” of this group performing well vs. the “likelihood” of them playing well. Someone earlier said that Peterman could outperform Mahomes. He certainly could. Justin Shorter could have 2,000 yards receiving. Those of us skeptical of the receiving room are looking at the likelihood. This group, on paper, is one of the worst in the league. Do I think that the Bills will have one of the worst passing attacks in the league? No. They have Josh Allen. The point is, if they end up with the 12th(ish) best passing attack, they would have been much higher with even an average room.
 

My biggest issue is not surrounding Josh with elite talent. He is asked to elevate role players. The entire focus should be, give Allen everything to create an unstoppable offense and be good enough everywhere else. The Bills philosophy, in the Allen era, has been to allocate $ and elite draft picks to the defense and let Allen cover for their deficiencies. They’ve kind of made more of an effort over the last couple of drafts. Although when they desperately needed a WR they traded down twice and selected the 8th guy at the position. Despite where he was picked that doesn’t scream to me the Bills saying, “we need to get Josh more help.”
 

This team lacks talent comparatively. Look at all of the top 50 or top 100 player lists. See how many Bills players are on their vs. other top teams. Could Andy Isabella or KJ Hamler end up on their next year? Sure. Is it likely? Of course not. That’s the issue. Those of us holding the Bills to a higher standard are in “wait and see” mode like the rest of you. We just aren’t expecting things that are highly unlikely to happen. We wanted, and still want, the Bills to add more weapons that are LIKELY to contribute as opposed to COULD contribute.

Thanks for a reasonable take vs. some of the hyperbolic stuff we’ve seen.  Let me respond in kind.  As I’ve stated previously, the biggest difference in this awe corps is not having Diggs.  The question then is which Diggs will we be missing:  the Diggs of his first few years or the Diggs of the last part of last season?  Greg Cosell is a guy whose opinions I value, and he has stated Diggs was not commanding as much attention the last half of the season.  Or, in the vernacular, he was no longer a “#1WR”.  In contrast, we saw Shakir’s production make a huge jump the latter half of the year.  So can Shakir now fill Diggs’ shoes?  Maybe not the Diggs of 2-3 years ago, but the Diggs from last year I’d say so.  
 

The other loss was Davis.  From a receiving standpoint certainly guys like Samuel or MVS or Coleman can do as well.  We may miss Davis more from a blocking perspective than from a receiving perspective.

 

Any discussion of the Bills receiving corps has to not just focus on WRs but on the extent of ALL those in the passing game.  So Kincaid had an outstanding rookie year and should be poised for more.  That is not unreasonable.  Nor is it unreasonable to think Knox offers a second productive receiving presence in two TE sets.  Then you throw in Cook and possibly Davis.  
 

Frustration has been shown over the Bills not surrounding Allen with talent and prioritizing defense.  But they traded for Diggs, drafted Cook and Kincaid and now Coleman with day 1 or 2 picks, and added to the O line to protect him either by FA (Morse, McGovern) or the draft (Torrence).  So there has been effort made.  I would also argue you can’t treat this as an either/or situation:  you can only focus on offense vs. defense.  You have to have both; the Chiefs showed that last year and of course historically this is the case.

 

The Bills have not drafted a really high end WR because of their success:  they have been in the low end of round one for a while so those guys go early.  Could they have moved up?  Sure, but at the sacrifice of other spots.  One of the things I find curious is how many folks are convinced Worthy will be such a huge hit for the Chiefs, and equally convinced that a guy drafted just a couple positions lower in Coleman (who Josh apparently really wanted) will be a bust.  
 

We will see starting this week how Brady constructs the office.  And if the receivers look suspect I think Beane will look to make a move.  I don’t think he’ll need to however.

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Except for going 6-1 as interim OC and 1-1 in the playoffs for the Buffalo Bills

Don’t bring up those pesky facts, it gets folk all upset, 🤣

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, Don Otreply said:

Don’t bring up those pesky facts, it gets folk all upset, 🤣

Oh, we all love how they finished the season. They have different players now. Joe Brady was elite as an OC when he had Burrow, Chase and Jefferson. He struggled with talent in Carolina. He did a good job last year with a different group. Which guy is he? Is he the guy from Carolina or the guy from LSU? 
 

As an aside, I’m a Brady fan. I was in Louisiana at that time. You can search this message board, 5 years ago, before 99% of the people here knew who he was, and see me advocating for him as OC (and even HC). I believe in Joe Brady. I don’t believe in the WRs. 

[Don Otreply]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Oh, we all love how they finished the season. They have different players now. Joe Brady was elite as an OC when he had Burrow, Chase and Jefferson. He struggled with talent in Carolina. He did a good job last year with a different group. Which guy is he? Is he the guy from Carolina or the guy from LSU? 
 

As an aside, I’m a Brady fan. I was in Louisiana at that time. You can search this message board, 5 years ago, before 99% of the people here knew who he was, and see me advocating for him as OC (and even HC). I believe in Joe Brady. I don’t believe in the WRs. 

And that is the main question, can Brady scheme and call the right plays at the right time , and can the players execute, it’s all part of the anticipation of the new season, we don’t all need to agree all the time, most folk here are pretty reasonable in their takes, and will concede to other good points made, some here get lost in the weeds their own opinions that they claim to be facts…,  oh well, humans…, 

[Mikey152]

54 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Any scheme designed to have Josh Allen as a role player, fits right into what other teams want. The Bills playing to “run the ball and stop the run” is an opponent’s dream. This team, as currently constructed, needs to be the Josh Allen show. The Bills don’t have the pieces around him that other winning teams do. The top of the Bills roster is very weak comparatively. 
 

The starting 5 being “workable” isn’t impressive. You need a guy(s) at the top of the depth chart that teams fear!! They have a top 10 TE and 4 WRs that would be number 3’s in most offenses (no one higher than WR 4 in Houston or Chicago). The Bills have assembled a group of pass catchers, that one of the most respected, data-driven, football minds, ranked as the 28th best group. Why would anyone defend that?

 

It’s okay to want them to succeed. That’s what we all want. Looking at it objectively though, it isn’t a good group compared to their peers. With Josh Allen, in his prime, that’s a mistake. I don’t think any reasonable person could argue that they are good enough there. At best, you hope that some of the lottery tickets are winners. At worst, you have a bunch of WRs that can’t get open and make plays. Josh Allen will need to be Superman to have this team competing for the playoffs. Thats a failure of roster management. 

I was going to write a long post, but I guess I have a simpler question for you…

 

What makes a football player better or worse than another football player, in your mind? Their draft slot, their production, their size, their 40 time? When you say “objectively” what exactly do you mean, because all I have seen is subjectivity. 
 

if we can leave this thread agreeing on anything, it should be the fact that ANYBODYS take on where the Bills WR rank in a season that hasn’t even happened yet is 100% subjective (ie an opinion) supported by whatever objective facts they deem appropriate (thus making it subjective). 
 

Because it is subjective…it can also be (shocker) wrong. And it happens A LOT in football. Like more than people are right if we are being honest. So why be so pressed? 

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

The question then is which Diggs will we be missing

 

Any way you slice it we are missing the “good” Diggs. It’s the same loss to the Bills team regardless of what kind of player he is now. The only open question is what version of him the Texans are getting - and that only matters to the Bills in the context of what it means for a competitor. 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Frustration has been shown over the Bills not surrounding Allen with talent and prioritizing defense.  But they traded for Diggs, drafted Cook and Kincaid and now Coleman with day 1 or 2 picks, and added to the O line to protect him either by FA (Morse, McGovern) or the draft (Torrence).  So there has been effort made.

 

Your argument is that they have added offensive players to the roster? That is damning with faint praise. This is the bare minimum that was needed to field even a starting caliber offense.

 

Again it has been shown, in this thread even, that the Bills have invested as little draft capital in the WR position as any other team. That is an undeniable fact. You can be more optimistic about the group than others but you can't pretend the Bills have made an attempt to prioritize the position relative to the rest of the league.

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Your argument is that they have added offensive players to the roster? That is damning with faint praise. This is the bare minimum that was needed to field even a starting caliber offense.

 

Again it has been shown, in this thread even, that the Bills have invested as little draft capital in the WR position as any other team. That is an undeniable fact. You can be more optimistic about the group than others but you can't pretend the Bills have made an attempt to prioritize the position relative to the rest of the league.

They got Diggs.  They drafted Davis and drafted Shakir in lower rounds who were productive.   They drafted now Coleman.  They drafted a lower round guy again in Shorter who has yet to show his potential due to injury.  Several years ago they brought in Beasley, Brown, Sanders in free agency.  They brought several guys in as FAs this year.  And of course brought in 2 TEs in Kincaid and Knox.  They have worked on the WR position, but more through trades and FA vs. draft.  
 

When you say relative to the rest of the league it would be helpful to actually show data on that.

32 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

Any way you slice it we are missing the “good” Diggs. It’s the same loss to the Bills team regardless of what kind of player he is now. The only open question is what version of him the Texans are getting - and that only matters to the Bills in the context of what it means for a competitor. 

He’ll be at best their second option.  We’ll see how he does.  His competitive spirit could either cause him to do great this year or make Stroud’s life miserable demanding the ball all the time.

[MikePJ76]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

They got Diggs.  They drafted Davis and drafted Shakir in lower rounds who were productive.   They drafted now Coleman.  They drafted a lower round guy again in Shorter who has yet to show his potential due to injury.  Several years ago they brought in Beasley, Brown, Sanders in free agency.  They brought several guys in as FAs this year.  And of course brought in 2 TEs in Kincaid and Knox.  They have worked on the WR position, but more through trades and FA vs. draft.  
 

When you say relative to the rest of the league it would be helpful to actually show data on that.

You are wasting your time.  These guys all look at the bengals and bears etc and say they have chase and higgins etc and we should have that too.

 

They actually thought the team was going to trade into the top 5 or 6 and burn this year and next years draft to get harrison or malik...etc.  So they are mad that didn't happen and now in turn refuse to believe any of the players are any good and have zero value.

 

IF there is one thing fans have not learned but I think the Bills have is patience.  The bills draft pick ending up being Jefferson is proof of life that the team needs to show restraint, hang onto there picks and to keep adding the best players they can.

 

the flip side to all of this even my own opinion is that the team needs to fire the staff and bring in a young offensive minded coach to run the organization like Ben Johnson, bobby slowik etc....then next year use all their resources to go get a big time wr in free agency and at the top of the draft.  Then go boat race every team they play and score 30+ every week.  This is the philosophy many want here and honestly if this team misses the playoffs this year they might get it.

 

me, I think they are laying the building blocks of the next part of Allens career this year with this offense and with picks and cap space they have next year will go out and address wr in free agency or the draft and acquire whichever needed ability it turns out they are lacking this year....maybe speed, hands or just the overall thing.  Again, I think this is going to be a good offense, a physical one and it will need to be to win with this difficult schedule.

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, MikePJ76 said:

You are wasting your time.  These guys all look at the bengals and bears etc and say they have chase and higgins etc and we should have that too.

 

They actually thought the team was going to trade into the top 5 or 6 and burn this year and next years draft to get harrison or malik...etc.  So they are mad that didn't happen and now in turn refuse to believe any of the players are any good and have zero value.

 

IF there is one thing fans have not learned but I think the Bills have is patience.  The bills draft pick ending up being Jefferson is proof of life that the team needs to show restraint, hang onto there picks and to keep adding the best players they can.

 

the flip side to all of this even my own opinion is that the team needs to fire the staff and bring in a young offensive minded coach to run the organization like Ben Johnson, bobby slowik etc....then next year use all their resources to go get a big time wr in free agency and at the top of the draft.  Then go boat race every team they play and score 30+ every week.  This is the philosophy many want here and honestly if this team misses the playoffs this year they might get it.

 

me, I think they are laying the building blocks of the next part of Allens career this year with this offense and with picks and cap space they have next year will go out and address wr in free agency or the draft and acquire whichever needed ability it turns out they are lacking this year....maybe speed, hands or just the overall thing.  Again, I think this is going to be a good offense, a physical one and it will need to be to win with this difficult schedule.

I agree.  I would say if they don’t like the way the WRs are shaping up Beane may go get a guy like Adams or Aiyuk in a trade.  But doubtful.  And this may be McDsput up or shut up year.

Edited July 24 by oldmanfan