I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Mikey152]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't see a guy who is going to win their 1 on 1 inside 2 seconds consistently. And when you don't have that the redzone is where it shows up most. Can the big bodies of Coleman and the tight ends make a few contested catch TDs? Sure. But that isn't a way to live sustainably in the NFL over the course of a season.

Curtis Samuel is one of the top man beaters in the NFL. Aside from familiarity with Brady, it’s probably the number one reason they brought him in…people are seriously sleeping on him if they think he is just a gadget guy/slot. I would bet he easily leads the team in touches at WR this season

Edited July 19 by Mikey152

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Curtis Samuel is one of the top man beaters in the NFL. Aside from familiarity with Brady, it’s probably the number one reason they brought him in…people are seriously sleeping on him if they think he is just a gadget guy/slot. I would bet he easily leads the team in touches at WR this season

 

We have done this argument about 30 pages ago.

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't see a guy who is going to win their 1 on 1 inside 2 seconds consistently. And when you don't have that the redzone is where it shows up most. Can the big bodies of Coleman and the tight ends make a few contested catch TDs? Sure. But that isn't a way to live sustainably in the NFL over the course of a season.

Fair enough, while I don’t personally share this same opinion, I get why you have Redzone concerns if you feel this way.  

2 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Also a guy like Hollins, ppl bring up his poor stats last year but the prior year in LV he went for 57/690/4.. 

Could be a big upgrade over Sherfield/Harty in the WR 4 or 5 role. 

Him and MVS both around 6'4 , clearly size was an important attribute to Beane

Yeah Hollins is an underrated signing here IMHO.  He is a guy who brings credible ability as a receiver, but also is a very good blocker to help replace that part of Gabe’s game that he actually did quite well.  And he is a very good ST player.  He will have more value to this team than Sherfield and Harry did combined IMHO.  

[Avisan]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

For those continuing to drone on about the terrible WR corps, should they turn out to play well could you let me know now what position group you'll decide to pick on next?  I'd like to start preparing in advance.

Really excited for all the goal-post-moving and insisting that they were never wrong to hound on the people who are pointing out all of the reasons why our passing offense is going to be fine

 

Extra shouts out to the folks that don't understand that targets are a function of being a wide receiver on a football team and cannot comprehend that playing more snaps means they will get more targets since the Bills are going to continue passing the ball because this isn't 1920

[BADOLBILZ]

15 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I predict that no WR on the Bills will get over 100 targets (Kincaid I predict will get right around 100 targets). ARSB has gotten 119, 146, and 164 targets in each year of his career. Respectfully you using him as a comparison was just plain dumb. Shakir and Samuel are not as good as him, I'm sorry they just aren't. There is no magic solution wherein we just funnel one of them 150 targets and watch them collect 1,500 yards like ARSB had last year. Players EARN that kind of target share by consistently getting open and/or showing they can consistently win contested catches.

 

I expect our passing attempts overall to be lower than usual this year. I'll predict 515 attempts which is about 4 less attempts per game than recent years. I'm with @BADOLBILZ that we will probably have a more ball control offense that runs the ball more and intentionally prolongs drives. I expect we will have to play this style of offense for the same reason we did against the Chiefs in the divisional round - it's what our caliber of pass catchers will necessitate.

 

Your whole argument is just bad statistics. You're assuming an equal number of pass attempts. You're assuming everyone's yards per target will scale up perfectly with increased targets. Overall you're assuming every single best case scenario, and when called out on this your response is that we're bad fans because we're not blindly optimistic. This response by the way tells on itself - you're admitting you don't actually believe any of the things you're saying, it's apparently just part of "being a fan" for you.

 

 

 

With the way that people grasp on to things that McBeane say..........I am just at a loss to understand why some fans can't see that they made a major shift to "complementary football"..

 

That just isn't congruent with the pass heavy offense's that Daboll ran.

 

But they think they are going to get the best of both.

 

They've made a shift and some of us think they've shifted too far(again).

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

LMAO Cut the BS dude...The balls on you to accuse me and call “bulls**t” while you are in fact lying.  Ok then, can’t believe I actually have to even do this.…but let’s go to the receipts lol

 

You just flat out lied...yet again.  Not only is that NOT my original comment that you first replied to...but its not even the full comment of the post you took it from.  Why, because if you quoted the full post it would expose you are lying.  But don't worry...I got you covered   More comically you are trying to use this same lie in other posts in attempts to gaslight other posters too lmao.

 

So...let me help you by sharing the ACTUAL post you responded to ORIGINALLY and the posts that followed where it was VERY clear what we were discussing EVERY time.  

 

This is my ORIGINAL post below that STARTED our conversation.  Since you struggle with facts and truth…I will make them easier to read with bold and larger font 👍

 

SPOILER ALERT:  What does it say?  Hmmmm....TOP 3 RECEIVERS (weird no TE's or non-starters).  PAST 4 or 5 YEARS (weird no Josh Allen rookie year where he didn't play a full season...and was well a rookie and nowhere near the player he is now).  CAREER HIGH (weird doesn't say new career high every single year). 

 

 

As if I am not already at Mic Drop levels...let’s keep going cuz this is for the people! 😂 

 

👇Here is the ACTUAL FULL POST that you CHERRY PICKED a GENERALIZED ending quote from (in RED below) where you didn't quote the WHOLE post because it VERY CLEARLY states PRIOR to that what we SPECIFICALLY have been discussing since the BEGINNING.

 

 

🤯 Oh that pesky truth right?  LOL 

 

But let’s keep it going...because you were REPEATEDLY told even after this every time you desperately tried to misrepresent what my statements originally were.  So you can't even claim ignorance, you were told over and over...

 

POST NUMBER 3:  

 

 

AND YET AGAIN...

 

 

Sadly, there were even more examples still…But hey, no need to post them all. I still have the rest of your nonsense to address below...

 

Getting back to the rest of your nonsense comments...👇

 

 

No you didn't.  You gave me a post of gibberish that was wrong, inaccurate, and not on topic.

 

 

Hahaha oh boy...ok, you keep writing them, so lets take them one by one:

 

Clay - Played with Allen his rookie year when Allen didn't play a full season...so not from "the last 4 or 5 years"...nor is he a WR.

Benjamin - Played during Allens rookie year only when Allen didn't play a full season....so also not from "the last 4 or 5 years".

Foster - This is the dumbest one...HE LITERALLY HAD HIS CAREER HIGH WITH ALLEN.  And the year 2 you want to talk about...FOSTER DIDN'T PLAY, he was in the coaches doghouse...something ALREADY told to you too.  And again, it doesnt matter he already set a CAREER HIGH with JOSH ALLEN.

Davis - He has ONLY played with Josh Allen...therefore his CAREER HIGH is with ALLEN.  And I know you don't like him, so I seriously doubt you believe he will beat his career highs in Jax...doesn't matter though, because still his CAREER HIGH is currently with...wait for it...JOSH ALLEN.

Knox - SEE DAVIS ABOVE.  Also NOT A WR.  But lets talk about him anyway...15 TD's and over 1100 yards over 2021 and 2022...CAREER best seasons and does anyone expect he will put up 9 TD's again?  Doubt it.  Doesn't matter though...CAREER HIGH is STILL currently with...wait for it...JOSH ALLEN.

McKenzie - LITERALLY put up his CAREER HIGH SEASON with JOSH ALLEN.

Brown - LITERALLY put up his CAREER HIGH SEASON with JOSH ALLEN.

Beasley - LITERALLY put up his CAREER HIGH SEASON with JOSH ALLEN.

Sanders - HURT and I literally said other than Crowder and Sanders who had injuries from the early outset. 

Sherfield - NOT A STARTER, didn't play much...and we were discussing...wait for it...STARTERS.

Harty - SEE SHERFIELD.

 

Now its time:  🎤🫳

 

 

 

 

You are TSW's official king of gaslighting.    

 

That's at least 3 different topics where you've done it in this thread.

 

I see people just refuse to address facts that refute their claims when they know they are wrong...........that happens all the time........... but not intentionally lie over and over to try to confuse readers into buying their line of BS.

 

If that's who you want to be..........so be it.  

 

Those political tactics are just repugnant on a sports forum........anyone can get their fill of that elsewhere.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

10 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You are TSW's official king of gaslighting.    

 

That's at least 3 different topics where you've done it in this thread.

 

I see people just refuse to address facts that refute their claims when they know they are wrong...........that happens all the time........... but not intentionally lie over and over to try to confuse readers into buying their line of BS.

 

If that's who you want to be..........so be it.  

 

Those political tactics are just repugnant on a sports forum........anyone can get their fill of that elsewhere.

 

 

 

Dude you just got caught lying and gaslighting and you want to pretend I am?  LMAO...you are priceless and clown at the same time for even trying.

 

I laid it all out there...it is black and white, you cant deny nor hide from it.  You are literally the king of gaslighting and you are doing it to others in this same thread lying to them and misusing statements to mean something else.  

 

I warned you not to try these games with me anymore in our private messages...you can't help yourself and your Napolean complex to where you try and bully over everyone in every convo and will lie and change narratives to do it.  

 

Your game is up and tired.  

Edited July 19 by Alphadawg7

[Rampant Buffalo]

13 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

We had enough talent to put up more than 1 offensive TD against the Texans who had a below average defense.  I think you can agree on that.  The Chiefs put up 51 the following week.

 

I don't see any spot where the Bills WR during the playoffs was really bad.  I think 2019 was average and after that, it's been good or decent.

 

Yes, there were years the OL was below average, I can agree with that.

 

The OL was dominated in the Bengals playoff but when we had opportunities, we didn't capitalize.  Allen didn't play well when he had time, there was film breakdown on the game after that showed several missed opportunities.   It was a bad overall game from both units.

 

I agree that we had the talent to get more than one 1 TD against the Texans. That was an offensive letdown, no question.

 

As for WR: the Bills didn't have a #1 WR prior to Diggs' arrival. These last two years, he faded late in the season and in the postseason. That means Allen has had just two postseasons of maybe good play from his Z.

 

Then you look at slot. Beasley version 1 was very good, no question. Shakir played well this past season, albeit not at Beasley's level. Other than that, the Bills haven't had much at slot.

 

At X, Gabe Davis has had excellent games in the postseason, most notably his 200 yard performance against the Chiefs. But he's also inconsistent, and during the regular season puts up one of the NFL's lowest catch percentages for a WR.

 

"I don't see any spot where the Bills WR during the playoffs was really bad." In this most recent playoff loss, Bills WRs had 160 yards of drops, while struggling badly to gain separation. How much more badness than that do you want to see, before this meets your definition of really bad?

 

 

 

Edited July 19 by Rampant Buffalo

[Royale with Cheese]

7 minutes ago, Rampant Buffalo said:

 

I agree that we had the talent to get more than one 1 TD against the Texans. That was an offensive letdown, no question.

 

As for WR: the Bills didn't have a #1 WR prior to Diggs' arrival. These last two years, he faded late in the season and in the postseason. That means Allen has had just two postseasons of maybe good play from his Z.

 

Then you look at slot. Beasley version 1 was very good, no question. Shakir played well this past season, albeit not at Beasley's level. Other than that, the Bills haven't had much at slot.

 

At X, Gabe Davis has had excellent games in the postseason, most notably his 200 yard performance against the Chiefs. But he's also inconsistent, and during the regular season puts up one of the NFL's lowest catch percentages for a WR.

 

"I don't see any spot where the Bills WR during the playoffs was really bad." In this most recent playoff loss, Bills WRs had 160 yards of drops, while struggling badly to gain separation. How much more badness than that do you want to see, before this meets your definition of really bad?

 

 

 

 

I am not denying your bolded point.  I just thought we were talking collectively, as a group since 2020.  Not an individual games like the KC playoff game.

[Rampant Buffalo]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I am not denying your bolded point.  I just thought we were talking collectively, as a group since 2020.  Not an individual games like the KC playoff game.

 

I should have been more clear. Someone made a point about the offense being inconsistent in the postseason. I pointed out that one of the reasons for that is that the Bills have had inconsistent levels of play, in the postseason, at WR and OL. There have been postseason games when we've gotten good play out of one or both those units. Other postseason games, not so much so. The point I'm trying to make with all this is that if the Bills want consistently good offensive play in the postseason, they need OL and WRs who can be counted on to consistently play well in January.

[Warriorspikes51]

This group will be far and away the most interesting during camp.

It would be great for everyone if Claypool earned a role on the team IMO

 

Samuel  
Coleman 
Shakir 

 

WR4 Equal rotation of MVS, Claypool, Hollis 

[BillsVet]

5 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

Curtis Samuel is one of the top man beaters in the NFL. Aside from familiarity with Brady, it’s probably the number one reason they brought him in…people are seriously sleeping on him if they think he is just a gadget guy/slot. I would bet he easily leads the team in touches at WR this season

 

Quantify this assertion.  Because I don't get how a guy who has seen his yards per reception decline 4 straight (full) seasons as someone who is "one of the top man beaters in the NFL."  

 

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

With the way that people grasp on to things that McBeane say..........I am just at a loss to understand why some fans can't see that they made a major shift to "complementary football"..

 

That just isn't congruent with the pass heavy offense's that Daboll ran.

 

But they think they are going to get the best of both.

 

They've made a shift and some of us think they've shifted too far(again).

 

It would be funny if they used assets, like the 2nd in 2025 acquired for Diggs, to get a better receiver at or near the deadline.  They'd be paying a buyers premium given the point in season and by then what's likely to be their clear need at WR.  I'm sure opposing GMs would make them pay for miscalculating that WR group was capable of replacing Diggs and providing solid receiving production.  

 

It would also be another major in-season direction turn for the offense after the last few years of being adamant Josh not need to carry the ball.  Which doesn't happen because the offense struggles.    And this year, with a WR group that is ranked by multiple sources as bottom of the league, it signals they don't know what they're doing to devise an offensive scheme and resource it which can win in different ways. 

Edited July 19 by BillsVet

[Mikey152]

8 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Quantify this assertion.  Because I don't get how a guy who has seen his yards per reception decline 4 straight (full) seasons as someone who is "one of the top man beaters in the NFL."  

 

 

It would be funny if they used assets, like the 2nd in 2025 acquired for Diggs, to get a better receiver at or near the deadline.  They'd be paying a buyers premium given the point in season and by then what's likely to be their clear need at WR.  I'm sure opposing GMs would make them pay for miscalculating that WR group was capable of replacing Diggs and providing solid receiving production.  

 

It would also be another major in-season direction turn for the offense after the last few years of being adamant Josh not need to carry the ball.  Which doesn't happen because the offense struggles.    And this year, with a WR group that is ranked by multiple sources as bottom of the league, it signals they don't know what they're doing to devise an offensive scheme and resource it which can win in different ways. 

I already posted this 30 pages ago, but here it is again...more people should watch it anyway

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

This group will be far and away the most interesting during camp.

It would be great for everyone if Claypool earned a role on the team IMO

 

Samuel  
Coleman 
Shakir 

 

WR4 Equal rotation of MVS, Claypool, Hollis 

 

No doubt Claypool has the most upside from a pure talent perspective.  So I am hoping to see him get back on track, because he is actually the most accomplished WR on this roster right now based on best season of production, and he did it twice his first 2 years in the league before his immaturity sunk his standing and career.

 

He is saying all the right things so far...but it is easy to say the right things when you have accepted that you are coming in at the bottom to try and work your way up.  My big question is what happens when the 2nd preseason game just concluded and he is still running with the backups?  Is he going to start getting frustrated or feeling like he is owed more if say he has had a strong camp but guys like Samuel or even Hollis are still clearly ahead of him?  

 

I mean Hollis is not going to be easy to over take.  He has shown he has receiver ability, he is also a very good blocker and very good ST player.  They went out and got him long before they looked at Claypool too.  Hollis doesn't offer the same top end potential Claypool does, but with Keon, Shakir and Samuel firmly up there on the top, Claypool is fighting to get into that WR4 category where the guy in front of him brings a lot of the dirty work to the table that doesn't always show up on the stat sheets.  

 

But again, Claypool has starter level potential here.  Bears traded a first round pick for him 2 seasons ago despite his maturity issues sinking him in Pit.  In an ideal world, he keeps impressing and it is him and Keon starting on the outside with Shakir in the Slot and Samuel rotating in amongst them and into the backfield at times.  But that is a long road for Claypool to climb, it won't be handed to him.  And I want to see how he mentally handles disappointment and frustration from a maturity stand point before I feel like the kid is turning things around.  

[Mikey152]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No doubt Claypool has the most upside from a pure talent perspective.  So I am hoping to see him get back on track, because he is actually the most accomplished WR on this roster right now based on best season of production, and he did it twice his first 2 years in the league before his immaturity sunk his standing and career.

 

He is saying all the right things so far...but it is easy to say the right things when you have accepted that you are coming in at the bottom to try and work your way up.  My big question is what happens when the 2nd preseason game just concluded and he is still running with the backups?  Is he going to start getting frustrated or feeling like he is owed more if say he has had a strong camp but guys like Samuel or even Hollis are still clearly ahead of him?  

 

I mean Hollis is not going to be easy to over take.  He has shown he has receiver ability, he is also a very good blocker and very good ST player.  They went out and got him long before they looked at Claypool too.  Hollis doesn't offer the same top end potential Claypool does, but with Keon, Shakir and Samuel firmly up there on the top, Claypool is fighting to get into that WR4 category where the guy in front of him brings a lot of the dirty work to the table that doesn't always show up on the stat sheets.  

 

But again, Claypool has starter level potential here.  Bears traded a first round pick for him 2 seasons ago despite his maturity issues sinking him in Pit.  In an ideal world, he keeps impressing and it is him and Keon starting on the outside with Shakir in the Slot and Samuel rotating in amongst them and into the backfield at times.  But that is a long road for Claypool to climb, it won't be handed to him.  And I want to see how he mentally handles disappointment and frustration from a maturity stand point before I feel like the kid is turning things around.  

Honestly, Claypool is fascinating. I really thought he was gonna be the next Mike Evans after his rookie season. His physical traits are top of the league...it's really too bad that his head wasn't screwed on straight, but maybe we will get lucky. Im not really pinning any hopes on it, but he is a real lottery ticket.

[Alphadawg7]

10 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Honestly, Claypool is fascinating. I really thought he was gonna be the next Mike Evans after his rookie season. His physical traits are top of the league...it's really too bad that his head wasn't screwed on straight, but maybe we will get lucky. Im not really pinning any hopes on it, but he is a real lottery ticket.

 

The bolded is a great way to phrase it...he really is, we have no risk here with tons of potential.  Like you, not holding my breath, the kind of transformation he needs to make is no small hill to climb.  It is always easy in the beginning to be patient, say the right things, etc.  But if he starts to feel like he is deserving of moving up the ladder more as camp and preseason progresses and maybe isn't yet, that is when his maturity and entitlement issues will be tested.  Will this guy put the work in no matter his role, that is the question.  

[BillsVet]

35 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

I already posted this 30 pages ago, but here it is again...more people should watch it anyway

 

Harmon does not address how Samuel, bereft of a primary option in this passing game, will produce the way he thinks.  That element has been minimized throughout this thread.    

 

Those seasons in Carolina and the last 2 in Washington featured him as no better than a WR2.  In both situations, other receivers were the primary options (DJ Moore, and Terry McLaurin) and drew better defenders.  

[Einstein's Dog]

18 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No doubt Claypool has the most upside from a pure talent perspective.  So I am hoping to see him get back on track, because he is actually the most accomplished WR on this roster right now based on best season of production, and he did it twice his first 2 years in the league before his immaturity sunk his standing and career.

 

He is saying all the right things so far...but it is easy to say the right things when you have accepted that you are coming in at the bottom to try and work your way up.  My big question is what happens when the 2nd preseason game just concluded and he is still running with the backups?  Is he going to start getting frustrated or feeling like he is owed more if say he has had a strong camp but guys like Samuel or even Hollis are still clearly ahead of him?  

 

I mean Hollis is not going to be easy to over take.  He has shown he has receiver ability, he is also a very good blocker and very good ST player.  They went out and got him long before they looked at Claypool too.  Hollis doesn't offer the same top end potential Claypool does, but with Keon, Shakir and Samuel firmly up there on the top, Claypool is fighting to get into that WR4 category where the guy in front of him brings a lot of the dirty work to the table that doesn't always show up on the stat sheets.  

 

But again, Claypool has starter level potential here.  Bears traded a first round pick for him 2 seasons ago despite his maturity issues sinking him in Pit.  In an ideal world, he keeps impressing and it is him and Keon starting on the outside with Shakir in the Slot and Samuel rotating in amongst them and into the backfield at times.  But that is a long road for Claypool to climb, it won't be handed to him.  And I want to see how he mentally handles disappointment and frustration from a maturity stand point before I feel like the kid is turning things around.  

I don't think the Claypool problem comes from Hollis, IMO, Hollis should be easy to overtake.  The problem I can see is with K Coleman getting reps over Claypool when Claypool is outplaying Coleman.  But the FO wants Coleman in there instead.  The lineup/reps would be going to Shakir/C Samuel/and K Coleman.

 

Coleman is the first pick in the draft and the FO is going to want to get him experience even if it comes at the expense of Claypool. That can be tough to take.  And Claypool doesn't have a history of handling situations well.

[Mikey152]

12 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Harmon does not address how Samuel, bereft of a primary option in this passing game, will produce the way he thinks.  That element has been minimized throughout this thread.    

 

Those seasons in Carolina and the last 2 in Washington featured him as no better than a WR2.  In both situations, other receivers were the primary options (DJ Moore, and Terry McLaurin) and drew better defenders.  

🙄

 

I guess Tee Higgins and Brandon Aiyuk and Jaylon Waddle aren’t as good as we thought. Probably St Brown and Puka too, since they play in the slot.  If your theory about not drawing top coverage is the reason, why are all the top guys on Harmony list #1 WRs? Shouldn’t more backups be up there?

 

He doesn’t address it because clearly Diggs was still on the team at that point. Through the first half of the season, he was probably the Commanders best receiver. He sure did smoke Benford a few times when they played the Bills. 
 

 

 

Edited July 19 by Mikey152

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Harmon does not address how Samuel, bereft of a primary option in this passing game, will produce the way he thinks.  That element has been minimized throughout this thread.    

 

Those seasons in Carolina and the last 2 in Washington featured him as no better than a WR2.  In both situations, other receivers were the primary options (DJ Moore, and Terry McLaurin) and drew better defenders.  

 

This is a fair point, and absolutely valid.  I do however also feel it is a bit over emphasized here sometimes as if just having a top end option of a player suddenly makes him good vs bad.  Having that guy undoubtedly is an advantage, but the other guy still is facing a starting corner, still has to win his routes, still has to beat zone, still also sees the defenses top DB at times, still has to make the catches, and still has to run with the ball once in his hands.  

 

This kind of gets talked about like any player opposite a Diggs, Moore, etc just has this easy path and runs around with ease...it just isn't to that level.  Most defenses don't have their top corner shadow one player, so as Receivers move around the field they find themselves being guarded by different people, including that teams top corner.  

 

Additionally...elite corners are not aplenty around the league.  For a lot of teams, there is not always even a significant difference between their top corners and 2nd corner.  

 

And...more importantly, this common assumption on the board this offseason that defenses will never look to double someone on the Bills because Diggs isn't here is a bit of an exaggeration too.  There will be times where different guys are going to draw extra attention, and even more so if guys like Kincaid, Shakir, or Keon consistently are able to make plays.  Not to mention, unlike most other teams, opposing defenses need to also spy Allen.