I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[njbuff]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

As I said before, there won't be a true #1 WR this year.  The philosophy will be "get open, catch ball." 

That’s all Allen needs is someone to catch the ball.

 

Allen’s given MANY receivers career years during his time in the NFL. There is no reason for it to stop now since his OL is going to be light years better than it’s ever been.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

As I said before, there won't be a true #1 WR this year.  The philosophy will be "get open, catch ball." 

This.  It’s not even an assumption, it’s been stated by everyone from McD, Beane, and Brady to all the players on offense that have spoken about it . Motto for the unit this year is “Everyone Eats” meaning who is getting the ball game to game is gonna be different.  They will look to attack the weak spots of the defense and take what it’s giving them because we have great depth this year from the WR’s, TE’s, and even all 3 RB’s who can catch the ball and all make plays.  

[njbuff]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

This.  It’s not even an assumption, it’s been stated by everyone from McD, Beane, and Brady to all the players on offense that have spoken about it . Motto for the unit this year is “Everyone Eats” meaning who is getting the ball game to game is gonna be different.  They will look to attack the weak spots of the defense and take what it’s giving them because we have great depth this year from the WR’s, TE’s, and even all 3 RB’s who can catch the ball and all make plays.  

If Knox and Cook can actually hold on to the ball, the skies the limit.

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

As I said before, there won't be a true #1 WR this year.  The philosophy will be "get open, catch ball." 

 

I can just imagine Josh now mouthing this inaudibly on national TV to his receivers:  "Hey Curtis and Khalil just go long and I'll find you!"

 

Only question I have is will there be ample dirt available for Allen to draw it up on the field?  

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

As I said before, there won't be a true #1 WR this year.  The philosophy will be "get open, catch ball." 

Getting open is part of what makes you a #1 wr

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

I can just imagine Josh now mouthing this inaudibly on national TV to his receivers:  "Hey Curtis and Khalil just go long and I'll find you!"

 

Only question I have is will there be ample dirt available for Allen to draw it up on the field?  

 

A wink and a nod between Flutie and Moulds was sufficient...

 

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Getting open is part of what makes you a #1 wr

 

If one guy shows he can consistently get open, he'll become the #1 WR.  Otherwise I'm expecting scheme to get different guys open.

[GoBills808]

Just now, Doc said:

 

A wink and a nod between Flutie and Moulds was sufficient...

 

 

If one guy shows he can consistently get open, he'll become the #1 WR.  Otherwise I'm expecting scheme to get different guys open.

So not to beat a dead horse

 

But none of our WRs have shown that kind of ability nor has our OC frankly

 

Optimism is fine but let's be realistic

[Rocky Landing]

23 hours ago, freddyjj said:

Childless men and women have an overall higher mortality than adults with children, meaning that they die earlier, recent studies show. Mothers and fathers with two biological children have the lowest mortality risks, but it increases for parents with three or more biological children.
 

From an article in Journal of Epedemiogy and Comm Health entitled “Payback time? Influence of having children on mortality in old age”

I can't speak for all the other dads out there, but speaking for myself (60yo, with an 18yo entering college, and a 14yo entering high school), I can't afford to die.

[Augie]

13 minutes ago, njbuff said:

If Knox and Cook can actually hold on to the ball, the skies the limit.

 

I think Knox fixed his concentration drops, but was hampered by the wrist injury/surgery last year. Cook I pray can fix his concentration drops, which seem to happen when points are at stake. Bad timing, settle down. I don’t think it’s a matter of having bad hands. 

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

So not to beat a dead horse

 

But none of our WRs have shown that kind of ability nor has our OC frankly

 

Optimism is fine but let's be realistic

 

None of the WRs have show the ability to get open?

[GoBills808]

Just now, Doc said:

 

None of the WRs have show the ability to get open?

Not to the extent they'll be required, no

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

As I said before, there won't be a true #1 WR this year.  The philosophy will be "get open, catch ball." 

   This you so eloquently stated is the description of basic requirement for all receivers.
   When this is projected to the last half of last season both our #1 & #2 WRs did not do very well with this basic requirement.  Davis was hampered with injuries.., yet again, and Diggs…, in my humble opinion, was pissed about about what he considered his targets being distributed elsewhere, and yet, he didn’t do well with the opportunities when he was targeted.  
   Brady and Allen had little choice but to rely on Shakir, because Shakir did that, “ get open catch ball thing “…, really well, that’s the only thing Josh Allen (or any other QB) needs from his receivers,  the rest takes care of itself, when your receivers know what they’re up to. 
    Had both our #1 & #2 WRs been available and did that “ get open catch ball “ thing correctly, all this discussion would not be happening as it is, but Diggs gave up, Davis can’t stay healthy, so both had to be “let go” as it were, as both were no longer dependable assets. Couple this with the cap fun, we are where we are now. 
   Some here like to pretend that this is not the case, but we know they regardless of their droning on and on that they are, shall we say, incorrect. 😁👍🍸🚬

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

It’s all an interesting discussion. On the topic of defenders squatting in the middle. I think it should be a concern. But also think we do have enough juice on the outside particularly with Allen’s arm to counter that. Shakir isn’t great on the outside but with Allen’s arm they got Sneeds first (only?) TD allowed of the season. The fun of this season is we haven’t really seen them in the past do the things they must to be successful this year. Part of that is personnel and scheme but it should def still raise concern. 

 

 

Again,  it comes down to likelihoods.

 

And it's statistically unlikely that the receivers that the Bills have are going to be very good.  

 

That's why they are going to rank somewhere between 27th-30th in the NFL as a unit going into this season.   

 

Maybe the Bills, Brady and Allen suddenly get ahead of the curve at WR for a change and get a lot more out of this group than they are projected to produce.

 

It's just not likely.  

[BADOLBILZ]

17 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

How is Samuel “probably WR1 going into the season” when Keon is WR1 and Kincaid is the preseason favorite to lead the team in targets after finishing 2nd in targets last year?  You also still have Shakir who is the only WR with any real experience with Allen.

 

 

 

 

The fact that you are so certain that Keon Coleman is going to be WR1 explains your over-confidence.

 

He was the 8th WR off the board.   A second round pick.   Very young for this class and relatively unproductive in college.

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

They are going to move Shakir around and still have Kincaid to contend with and Allen’s threat as a runner.  More importantly, while we may not have a Diggs who would frequently draw extra attention, we are much deeper than in previous seasons.  It’s going to be difficult for them to squat on the middle because even out of the slot, Shakir, Kincaid, and Samuel can attack all 3 levels of the defense and the boundaries too.
 

And while you don’t seem to give much thought to Coleman, he will be a difficult cover one on one because of his size regardless of his production.  Teams are going to have to cheat some help towards him or he will abuse defenders with his size and body control from his basketball background as well if him and Allen show even some chemistry.   

So for me, I don’t have a lot of concern about Shakir and Kincaid getting their territories compressed because Allen will make them pay elsewhere if they do. 
 

I mean, this is all just opinions all around at this stage because so much of this offense is new and we have not seen them as a group, let alone Brady’s true offensive game plan.  But just illustrating why I am less concerned about them having the middle compressed and forced into contested catches.  

 

 

In the slot Shakir had the greatest advantage a short armed WR could ask for.    Moving him "around" to positions where he is less likely to get a free release is not a good thing.

 

Like I said,   I see the Bills running 1/3 or more of their offensive snaps with only 2 "WR" on the field.    

 

I also suspect that they will play a lot more condensed formations where basically NOBODY is really outside.   Rams-esque.   We already know McDermott has long been obsessed with that outside zone run game McVay ran(even though the Bills inevitably always end up being better on gap runs).  

 

They could very well get into week 2 of the season and realize they just don't have the personnel to win matchups outside.    

 

That could be good for Shakir...........or then again maybe they decide they want to get Coleman on the field in tight formations(see what LA Rams did with Puka Nacua and KC did with Rashee Rice) and it costs Shakir snaps and targets.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The fact that you are so certain that Keon Coleman is going to be WR1 explains your over-confidence.

 

He was the 8th WR off the board.   A second round pick.   Very young for this class and relatively unproductive in college.

Keon entering the season as the X WR1 position isn’t over confidence, it isn’t an opinion, it’s a confirmed fact and not even up for debate. It’s been confirmed by everyone who matters on the Bills staff.  
 

Your skepticism of him doesn’t change those facts.  Now will he be a successful WR1…well that’s yet to be seen and you are free to doubt how good he will or won’t be this year, but there is no doubt Keon is entering the season as the X WR1 position.  
 

And the fact you think Samuel is starting the season as the WR1 is not only completely contradictory to how Brady and Beane have said he will be used, but also not remotely his skill set.  
 

 

 

Edited July 15 by Alphadawg7

[BarleyNY]

9 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Keon entering the season as the X WR1 position isn’t over confidence, it isn’t an opinion, it’s a confirmed fact and not even up for debate. It’s been confirmed by everyone who matters on the Bills staff.  
 

Your skepticism of him doesn’t change those facts.  Now will he be a successful WR1…well that’s yet to be seen and you are free to doubt how good he will or won’t be this year, but there is no doubt Keon is entering the season as the X WR1 position.  
 

And the fact you think Samuel is starting the season as the WR1 is not only completely contradictory to how Brady and Beane have said he will be used, but also not remotely his skill set.  
 

 

 

 

X refers to the outside WR who is lined up on the LOS. WR1 is more nebulous though. It typically refers to a team’s best/most productive WR. But sometimes it simply refers to a WR who is elite. In that cast a team can have more than one - like SF with Debo and Aiyuk.

 

So a team’s WR1 can be their X, but a team’s X is not necessarily their WR1. For example, for the last several seasons the Bills WR1 was Diggs who was usually the Z (tho they moved him around). Gabe Davis was usually the X and he was definitely not WR1. 

 

The Bills have been clear that their plans is for Coleman to be the X. But he’s going to have to earn his stripes, be those WR1 or WR2 stripes - or whatever else anyone wants to call it. 

Edited July 15 by BarleyNY

[FireChans]

20 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

And while you don’t seem to give much thought to Coleman, he will be a difficult cover one on one because of his size regardless of his production.  Teams are going to have to cheat some help towards him or he will abuse defenders with his size and body control from his basketball background as well if him and Allen show even some chemistry

….

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

X refers to the outside WR who is lined up on the LOS. WR1 is more nebulous though. It typically refers to a team’s best/most productive WR. But sometimes it simply refers to a WR who is elite. In that cast a team can have more than one - like SF with Debo and Aiyuk.

 

So a team’s WR1 can be their X, but a team’s X is not necessarily their WR1. For example, for the last several seasons the Bills WR1 was Diggs who was usually the Z (tho they moved him around). Gabe Davis was usually the X and he was definitely not WR1. 

 

The Bills have been clear that their plans is for Coleman to be the X. But he’s going to have to earn his stripes, be those WR1 or WR2 stripes - or whatever else anyone wants to call it. 

 
The WR1 is the X WR.  Keon is playing that role and will also play some Z, that much has already been stated by the staff.  That does not mean Keon will lead the team in receiving obviously.  Like you said, he still needs to earn his stripes on the field, which I totally agree with.  
 

However, as you mentioned, fans, sports media, etc also like to refer to a teams leading receiver as their WR1 which as you said is not necessarily the X WR, or even a WR at all.  Which is why I stated that assuming Samuel is the “WR1” coming in is completely contradictory to how Brady has stated he will use Samuel.
 

Brady has repeatedly discussed having to find creative ways to get Samuel the ball, including as a RB.  That is not what an OC has to do with a receiver who he intends to be his top targeted WR, that’s a guy who they need to find ways to get more involved. 
 

But without knowing what this offense is really going to look like this year, coming into the season it’s clear Kincaid and Shakir are the top favorites to lead the team in receiving after Kincaid finished 2nd in targets as a rookie and Shakir finished the final 10 games leading the team in receiving.  Especially since they are the only ones with experience with Allen and Brady.  
 

 

Edited July 15 by Alphadawg7

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Keon entering the season as the X WR1 position isn’t over confidence, it isn’t an opinion, it’s a confirmed fact and not even up for debate. It’s been confirmed by everyone who matters on the Bills staff.  
 

Your skepticism of him doesn’t change those facts.  Now will he be a successful WR1…well that’s yet to be seen and you are free to doubt how good he will or won’t be this year, but there is no doubt Keon is entering the season as the X WR1 position.  
 

And the fact you think Samuel is starting the season as the WR1 is not only completely contradictory to how Brady and Beane have said he will be used, but also not remotely his skill set.  
 

 

 

 

 

@BarleyNY already spoke to the two different things you are conflating regarding "X" and "WR1".

 

But it's not a "confirmed fact" in either regard.    Beane said Coleman was going to be an X receiver after he was drafted but then signed MVS.........who is basically only of any use as an X.   I'd call that hedging a bet.

 

I think a particular type of amnesia that the offseason has wrought upon some is that being a highly productive WR isn't just about physical traits.    The Bills have ALWAYS been an option-route based offense since Allen was drafted.   It's a pretty complicated system for a young WR.   That's likely to remain mostly the case.

 

The system requires the WR's to be able to read what the defense is trying to do pre-snap in order to be on the same page as the QB.    Coleman is pretty raw.   Think of how hard it's been for NFL legacy Kaiir Elam to acclimate.   Think of how it took Davante Adams 3 full seasons to learn how to play the position well in the NFL.   And he's my ceiling comp for Coleman.