I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Bill from NYC]

15 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

It's my understanding they both report to Pegula, who has fate control over them both.

 

They both have said things in interviews at various times that indicate this isn't the case, for example that Beane has on occasion done things that McDermott disagreed with and only reluctantly accepted.

 

I doubt anything will persuade you out of an opinion you hold, though.

Of course Pegula is in charge. He owns the team. duh. He also does not seem to be a meddling owner such as Mr. Wilson.

 

Do enlighten me please....Do you think that their power within the organization is 100% equal. Is this what you truly believe? Are they also equal in every phase of life? I wonder, do they both eat the same food every day? Assuming that they don't have exactly the same amount of sway with the owner or in terms of building the team, who would you think would be more powerful?

 

McDermott obviously got Beane the job. Did you ever get your boss hired to be in charge of you? I for one never did and I wonder how many have experienced this. 

 

Your comment that implied that I could never change an opinion I hold was rude, but no apology is necessary. I am however glad that you no longer hold dictatorial power on this board.

[DCofNC]

33 pages about a WR room “getting better” by losing a legit #1, the #2  and having never played a down together, gotta love the off-season.

[BADOLBILZ]

14 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Absolutely.  I respect any opinion whether it's different or the same,  I might clap back tell you why I disagree but 

 

We definitely have alot of unknowns but I still heavily prefer that over the "knowns" last year, when our borderline WR2 went down it was Diggs,Kincaid, Shakir. Everyone else shouldn't have been on the field for a divisional playoff game. 

 

We have the team that beat us top WR in that game as our WR4/5

 

That's a W imo. Let's see the rankings in 6 months 

 

 

The problem is that your first defense is calling the suspects "unknowns".

 

Everything about the upcoming season is an "unknown".    

 

Will Josh Allen have a heart attack today?   Unknown.

 

Can't base discussions around such ridiculously broad designations.

 

What we can have discussions about are the odds that something will occur.

 

The likelihood.

 

To the objective eye this WR corps is suspect.  

 

PFF has them projected at 27th after having them at 9th at the end of last season.

 

They are unlikely to be able to step into elevated roles.

 

It could happen.   But it's statistically unlikely based on a pretty significant track record.

[Beck Water]

13 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I think a lot of it is because the OP specifically mentions WRs.  And for most of us, it is a huge stretch to love this WR group or think it got better.

 

Secondly, we finally have an excellent TE group - probably the best the Bills have ever had, and J Cook is improving rapidly and that is after a pretty good season, along with Shakir improving.   All this offense needed to be among the top, was a top tier WR.   Apparently that is not going to happen.

 

And if the FO knew that a top tier WR wasn't in the cards then double dipping in the deep WR draft would seem to have been the way to go.  That would have been an exciting rebuild with a bright offensive future.

 

So a lot of people are upset, not so much about what we have, but for what could have been.

 

The first two para's are all fair points.  I agree and have posted, that at this point we may see some potential in the WR group, but thinking it got better needs to be stamped "not proven" in big letters until we see it in action.

 

As far as the "double dipping", though - Beane had a bunch of holes on the team as well as places where he has been plugging in FA, such as DL

He also has several late-round or UDFA developmental guys and a couple of former 2nd round FA who have been dogged with injuries. 

 

Did we want Beane to pass up the chance to draft Bishop, Carter, Davis, and Van Pran? 

Or did we want Beane to "double dip" in the late rounds?  Perhaps he felt the late-round receivers were not likely to make the team over the guys we already had on the roster?

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

Of course Pegula is in charge. He owns the team. duh. He also does not seem to be a meddling owner such as Mr. Wilson.

 

Do enlighten me please....Do you think that their power within the organization is 100% equal. Is this what you truly believe? Are they also equal in every phase of life? I wonder, do they both eat the same food every day? Assuming that they don't have exactly the same amount of sway with the owner or in terms of building the team, who would you think would be more powerful?

 

McDermott obviously got Beane the job. Did you ever get your boss hired to be in charge of you? I for one never did and I wonder how many have experienced this. 

 

Your comment that implied that I could never change an opinion I hold was rude, but no apology is necessary. I am however glad that you no longer hold dictatorial power on this board.

 

To your last point.

 

A funny thing that happened in this thread is that my "what a dumba$$ response" post was a reply to Beck.

 

Beck's original post and mine were immediately deleted.

 

Then an edited version of her post(clearly by her) re-surfaced and mine was then restored without the original quotes from Beck. 

 

No big deal but the posturing gave me a chuckle. 

 

*To clarify rather than adding another post........I never said nor implied that Beck deleted the posts.   

 

Was she given some help but then stubbornly re-posted her thoughts after they'd already been deleted,  leading to the restoration of mine?  

 

Perhaps.  

 

Just sayin' it made me laugh. 

Edited July 3 by BADOLBILZ
* edit to clarify

[Beck Water]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

To your last point.

 

A funny thing that happened in this thread is that my "what a dumba$$ response" post was a reply to Beck.

 

Beck's original post and mine were immediately deleted.

 

Then an edited version of her post(clearly by her) re-surfaced and mine was then restored without the original quotes from Beck. 

 

No big deal but the posturing gave me a chuckle. 

 

I have not deleted or edited any posts with responses in this thread, and yes, I knew your "dumbass" and "dumb" remarks were a response targeted at me. 
 

Sorry.not.sorry to bust your "posturing" bubble

 

You appear to devote an excessive level of time and energy to gratuitously insulting and taking shots at people on this board and to have a peculiar fascination with myself, whereas I normally ignore your posts.

Consider adding a hobby.  I hear stamp and coin collecting are favored by a certain type of obsessive personality; you might consider them as an additional hobby. 

 

Please don't take up training animals.  I would hate to think you might re-direct your keyboard warrior vituperations at living creatures present in your locale.

[Einstein's Dog]

31 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

The first two para's are all fair points.  I agree and have posted, that at this point we may see some potential in the WR group, but thinking it got better needs to be stamped "not proven" in big letters until we see it in action.

 

As far as the "double dipping", though - Beane had a bunch of holes on the team as well as places where he has been plugging in FA, such as DL

He also has several late-round or UDFA developmental guys and a couple of former 2nd round FA who have been dogged with injuries. 

 

Did we want Beane to pass up the chance to draft Bishop, Carter, Davis, and Van Pran? 

Or did we want Beane to "double dip" in the late rounds?  Perhaps he felt the late-round receivers were not likely to make the team over the guys we already had on the roster?

 

It comes down to a matter of prioritization.  And I have finally come over to the group on here (Gunner/Baldo/Happy) that have suggested for much longer that WR is not high enough on the FO list (although Gunner gives McD slack for this prioritization miscue somehow).

 

In retrospect I now think they should have made a move at the end of the third for T Franklin, seemed like great value to me (but at the time I was rooting against it because it would have meant they weren't going to do a large trade for a top tier WR- I still had high hopes).  The FO would have had to figure the rest out, but I think they could still have picked up who they wanted - they did end up with an extra 4th next year out of what they did.

[Royale with Cheese]

34 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I have not deleted or edited any posts with responses in this thread, and yes, I knew your "dumbass" and "dumb" remarks were a response targeted at me. 
 

Sorry.not.sorry to bust your "posturing" bubble

 

You appear to devote an excessive level of time and energy to gratuitously insulting and taking shots at people on this board and to have a peculiar fascination with myself, whereas I normally ignore your posts.

Consider adding a hobby.  I hear stamp and coin collecting are favored by a certain type of obsessive personality; you might consider them as an additional hobby. 

 

Please don't take up training animals.  I would hate to think you might re-direct your keyboard warrior vituperations at living creatures present in your locale.

 

I would take a step back....you're talking to the toughest guy on the internet.  

[Beck Water]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I would take a step back....you're talking to the toughest guy on the internet.  

 

LOL

[BADOLBILZ]

51 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I would take a step back....you're talking to the toughest guy on the internet.  

 

I've never physically threatened anyone on TSW.   Nor are any of the posts in this thread "threatening".  

 

But keep making sh!t up Mr. over-share.

 

We need more of your dumb kickboxing at 40 stories and things like buying goats to mow your lawn in the suburbs or how you take your kid to sporting events and bring him back to your ex with frostbite.   

 

You might not be the dumbest guy on the internet but you are a nominee. 

 

80 years from now re-living his first game with dad:

Edited July 3 by BADOLBILZ

[Royale with Cheese]

[pennstate10]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The problem is that your first defense is calling the suspects "unknowns".

 

Everything about the upcoming season is an "unknown".    

 

Will Josh Allen have a heart attack today?   Unknown.

 

Can't base discussions around such ridiculously broad designations.

 

What we can have discussions about are the odds that something will occur.

 

The likelihood.

 

To the objective eye this WR corps is suspect.  

 

PFF has them projected at 27th after having them at 9th at the end of last season.

 

They are unlikely to be able to step into elevated roles.

 

It could happen.   But it's statistically unlikely based on a pretty significant track record.

Not sure how this is unlikely based on significant track record. 
 

Coleman has never played in NFL

 

Claypool and MVS have had up and down years. If we get their up years, they’re pretty good. 
 

Samuels has played consistently well on bad offenses. 
 

Shakir ended the year in a clear upward trajectory. Will that continue ?

 

Diggs ended

the year on a clear downward trajectory. Will that continue ?

 

Clearly there are a ton of variables. 
 

If you have a statistical analysis that clearly demonstrates it’s unlikely they will be better, please share it with the group. 

[JerseyBills]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The problem is that your first defense is calling the suspects "unknowns".

 

Everything about the upcoming season is an "unknown".    

 

Will Josh Allen have a heart attack today?   Unknown.

 

Can't base discussions around such ridiculously broad designations.

 

What we can have discussions about are the odds that something will occur.

 

The likelihood.

 

To the objective eye this WR corps is suspect.  

 

PFF has them projected at 27th after having them at 9th at the end of last season.

 

They are unlikely to be able to step into elevated roles.

 

It could happen.   But it's statistically unlikely based on a pretty significant track record.

What track record..??

 

This is Bradys 1st offseason, obviously he was heavily involved in these acquisitions.  Diggs n Davis were statistically bad under Brady. Kincaid, Shakir n Cook were the studs. 

We keep them , add a few pieces, which our new oc n offense approved of. Idk how they're unlikely to step up to elevated roles based on a few games under Brady

[BADOLBILZ]

14 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

Not sure how this is unlikely based on significant track record. 
 

Coleman has never played in NFL

 

Claypool and MVS have had up and down years. If we get their up years, they’re pretty good. 
 

Samuels has played consistently well on bad offenses. 
 

Shakir ended the year in a clear upward trajectory. Will that continue ?

 

Diggs ended

the year on a clear downward trajectory. Will that continue ?

 

Clearly there are a ton of variables. 
 

If you have a statistical analysis that clearly demonstrates it’s unlikely they will be better, please share it with the group. 

 

 

I think their stats last season are recent enough.   No?  

 

I've shared many times that this would be the first time in almost 40 years that the Bills would start a season without a single WR who had put up 900 yards in any given NFL season.  

 

Coleman didn't even put up 800 in a season in his college career.

 

I think the PFF reference illustrates the outside perspective as well.  

 

I've been thru A TON of stats.  

 

If I repeat them for everyone then I get even more people complaining about repeating them etc..

2 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

What track record..??

 

This is Bradys 1st offseason, obviously he was heavily involved in these acquisitions.  Diggs n Davis were statistically bad under Brady. Kincaid, Shakir n Cook were the studs. 

We keep them , add a few pieces, which our new oc n offense approved of. Idk how they're unlikely to step up to elevated roles based on a few games under Brady

 

 

Their track records are their weak statistical histories.

 

Obviously.

 

Having to re-explain the obvious isn't advancing your opinion or broadening the discussion in any way.   

[pennstate10]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think their stats last season are recent enough.   No?  

 

I've shared many times that this would be the first time in almost 40 years that the Bills would start a season without a single WR who had put up 900 yards in any given NFL season.  

 

Coleman didn't even put up 800 in a season in his college career.

 

I think the PFF reference illustrates the outside perspective as well.  

 

I've been thru A TON of stats.  

 

If I repeat them for everyone then I get even more people complaining about repeating them etc..

Gotcha. 
So you have no stats on player improvement, translation of college to NFL, reviving lost careers, or likelihood of continuing upward or downward trends. 
 

Thats what I thought. 

[oldmanfan]

30 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I've never physically threatened anyone on TSW.   Nor are any of the posts in this thread "threatening".  

 

But keep making sh!t up Mr. over-share.

 

We need more of your dumb kickboxing at 40 stories and things like buying goats to mow your lawn in the suburbs or how you take your kid to sporting events and bring him back to your ex with frostbite.   

 

You might not be the dumbest guy on the internet but you are a nominee. 

Lighten up Francis

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

It comes down to a matter of prioritization.  And I have finally come over to the group on here (Gunner/Baldo/Happy) that have suggested for much longer that WR is not high enough on the FO list (although Gunner gives McD slack for this prioritization miscue somehow).

 

In retrospect I now think they should have made a move at the end of the third for T Franklin, seemed like great value to me (but at the time I was rooting against it because it would have meant they weren't going to do a large trade for a top tier WR- I still had high hopes).  The FO would have had to figure the rest out, but I think they could still have picked up who they wanted - they did end up with an extra 4th next year out of what they did.

They did exactly what you asked except instead of double dipping for a guy that fell several rounds lower than anticipated they got two FAs in Claypool and MVS that were I believe in the 2-4th round range when drafted.

 

So they didn’t just double dip.  They double-double dipped.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

It comes down to a matter of prioritization.  And I have finally come over to the group on here (Gunner/Baldo/Happy) that have suggested for much longer that WR is not high enough on the FO list (although Gunner gives McD slack for this prioritization miscue somehow).

 

In retrospect I now think they should have made a move at the end of the third for T Franklin, seemed like great value to me (but at the time I was rooting against it because it would have meant they weren't going to do a large trade for a top tier WR- I still had high hopes).  The FO would have had to figure the rest out, but I think they could still have picked up who they wanted - they did end up with an extra 4th next year out of what they did.

 

The thing is, the Bills spent a lot of time on Franklin.  My memory is a bit hazy here, but if I recall correctly in addition to attention during the college season and interviews at league-wide events like Senior Bowl, they had him into the facility for a top-30 visit and did a private workout with him.

 

So for whatever reason, the logical conclusion seems to be they didn't like him for some reason; sometimes when a team spends a lot of time on a player, it's not because they really like him, it's because they have questions or a poor first impression and want to see if that improves on more acquaintance.  (Reportedly, the Bills thought Allen was too quiet and shy initially at the Senior Bowl but that impression quickly changed when they went to visit him at Wyoming and saw him where he was comfortable)

It's not just the Bills, either; every team in the league passed on him in 3 rounds.  It was reported he had visits with the Bills, Jets, Browns, Patriots, Panthers, and Broncos, and they all passed 3x before the Broncos took him in the 4th.

Edited July 3 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

18 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

They did exactly what you asked except instead of double dipping for a guy that fell several rounds lower than anticipated they got two FAs in Claypool and MVS that were I believe in the 2-4th round range when drafted.

 

Claypool was a 2nd round pick.

MVS was a 5th

 

The thing is, while reclaimation does happen in the NFL (everyone who had "Geno Smith age 32 throws 30 TD and QB Seahawks to Playoffs" on their 2022 Bingo card please stand up), it's far more rare than learning that recent past performance predicts future outcome.

 

So while I'd love to see Claypool return to 2020/2021 60 reception, 860 yd form he had with Big Ben, the reality is, he's been a Hot Mess the last 2 seasons
I'd love to see MVS crack 60% receptions, but the fact is, he's caught passes from two of the best, most accurate QB in the league and has never cracked 45 receptions, 45 ypg, or 55% catch rate - and that's while seeing the field ~60% of the offensive snaps in all but one of his years.

 

The difference between signing these guys or KJ Hamler (another former 2nd round pick, stifled by repeated injuries) vs a rookie is that the rookie is a blank slate and moldable clay.  You don't know what he'll be capable of initially or become capable of.

 

I think that's the difference that disappoints many here.

[oldmanfan]

17 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Claypool was a 2nd round pick.

MVS was a 5th

 

The thing is, while reclaimation does happen in the NFL (everyone who had "Geno Smith age 32 throws 30 TD and QB Seahawks to Playoffs" on their 2022 Bingo card please stand up), it's far more rare than learning that recent past performance predicts future outcome.

 

So while I'd love to see Claypool return to 2020/2021 60 reception, 860 yd form he had with Big Ben, the reality is, he's been a Hot Mess the last 2 seasons
I'd love to see MVS crack 60% receptions, but the fact is, he's caught passes from two of the best, most accurate QB in the league and has never cracked 45 receptions, 45 ypg, or 55% catch rate - and that's while seeing the field ~60% of the offensive snaps in all but one of his years.

 

The difference between signing these guys or KJ Hamler (another former 2nd round pick, stifled by repeated injuries) vs a rookie is that the rookie is a blank slate and moldable clay.  You don't know what he'll be capable of initially or become capable of.

 

I think that's the difference that disappoints many here.

I would argue guys like Claypool or Hamler are equally if not more moldable.  

[Kirby Jackson]

56 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

Gotcha. 
So you have no stats on player improvement, translation of college to NFL, reviving lost careers, or likelihood of continuing upward or downward trends. 
 

Thats what I thought. 

Lol, I think that the point is, “if Coleman is elite as a rookie, Shakir continues to improve despite additional defensive attention, Claypool plays like he did in 2020, MVS plays like he did in 2020 & Curtis Samuel has the best year of his career, they will be okay” isn’t a high percentage play. I think that’s the point. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely that the Bills have an above average WR room? No.

 

As of today, I think that they are bottom 3. Can that change? Sure. Right now, it’s a bunch of sketchy resumes with an elite QB. We all hope that they hit their peaks this year. It just isn’t statistically likely.