Eastport bills Posted June 30 Posted June 30 59 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: We are officially at the point of the offseason when someone thinks more receivers on field = more dangerous. The least explosive offense in football is 5 wide. Dink and dunk garbage. 4 wide? They better be damn good receivers(which the Bills don't have) because the defensive line can play the run on the way to the QB. The most effective passing formation in the recent NFL is 1 RB 2 TE = 12 personnel. The Bills seem to be counting on being a heavy 12 because their WR corps is a couple WR3's, a rookie who didn't produce in college and a bunch of dumpster dives. The Bills problem is that unless a defense respects the possibility of 11 personnel and field stretching WR's.........they can game plan around having their ideal personnel to match up with 12 and choke out the short to intermediate areas. Which is why to expect more run game, more clock burning and more of Josh Allen being used like a battering ram in the run game. The original post was a response about liking our receivers compared to last years. Your assessment of these receivers viability without seeing them on the field seems a bit premature. My point was when we were in throwing situations with 4 receivers, we wouldn’t necessarily miss Diggs getting doubled. Obviously you turned the topic on its head to flash your advanced insights about what offensive approach works and your distaste for the receivers on the roster. Kincaid, Shakir, Samuel (with a real QB)Coleman( a #1 on undefeated division 1 team) A great pass catching TE and Shakir will be a good #2. Samuel has been productive with a below average QB. MVS and the other 2 roster survivors will give us better depth than previously. 1 Quote
BADOLBILZ Posted June 30 Posted June 30 27 minutes ago, Eastport bills said: Your assessment of these receivers viability without seeing them on the field seems a bit premature. My point was when we were in throwing situations with 4 receivers, we wouldn’t necessarily miss Diggs getting doubled. Obviously you turned the topic on its head to flash your advanced insights about what offensive approach works and your distaste for the receivers on the roster. Kincaid, Shakir, Samuel (with a real QB)Coleman( a #1 on undefeated division 1 team) A great pass catching TE and Shakir will be a good #2. Samuel has been productive with a below average QB. MVS and the other 2 roster survivors will give us better depth than previously. I've seen all of the Bills WR's on the field. A ton. This is not a cast of unknowns. I watched Coleman have just two 100 yard games and average just 55 yards per game in 12 games at FSU. I watched MVS play terribly and have by far his worst season as a pro. I watched Clayfool end the Dolphins season with a terrible route that Taylor Rapp intercepted. They are what they are at this point. 23 hours ago, oldmanfan said: I think all the # designations for WRs are a bit overblown myself. As for gaslighting, compare last year to this year at the WR spot. The biggest difference is Diggs. Samuel is at least even with Davis, Shakir is back, and Coleman and MVS are better than the other guys from last year. So if your claim that all of a sudden the Bills WR corps is terrible is not based solely on Diggs, then what are you basing it on? So you don't think the NFL is a "matchup league" after all? Interesting. Is the value of the QB position overblown as well? 1 1 Quote
Eastport bills Posted June 30 Posted June 30 59 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: I've seen all of the Bills WR's on the field. A ton. This is not a cast of unknowns. I watched Coleman have just two 100 yard games and average just 55 yards per game in 12 games at FSU. I watched MVS play terribly and have by far his worst season as a pro. I watched Clayfool end the Dolphins season with a terrible route that Taylor Rapp intercepted. They are what they are at this point. So you don't think the NFL is a "matchup league" after all? Interesting. Is the value of the QB position overblown as well? In your effort to bury the kid for whatever reason, you neglected to mention he had 50 catches in 12 games and 11 TDs. Prorate that to 17 games and he’s a # 1 on the Bills. It’s Ws buddy. Better than 50% on contested balls. MVS was much better with Rodger’s. If you’re going to be a hater give us the whole story and let these guys play a game with #17 before you give your superior career projections. Quote
oldmanfan Posted June 30 Posted June 30 (edited) 1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said: I've seen all of the Bills WR's on the field. A ton. This is not a cast of unknowns. I watched Coleman have just two 100 yard games and average just 55 yards per game in 12 games at FSU. I watched MVS play terribly and have by far his worst season as a pro. I watched Clayfool end the Dolphins season with a terrible route that Taylor Rapp intercepted. They are what they are at this point. So you don't think the NFL is a "matchup league" after all? Interesting. Is the value of the QB position overblown as well? You are the most ridiculous person here and that’s saying something. I said I think the idea of # 1 vs 2 etc for WRs is a bit overblown and you somehow turn it into stuff about matchups and then incredibly switch it to some rant about QBs. QBs are the most important players in any position in sports and we have a great one. The idea of #1 vs 2 vs whatever is to me overblown and guys will get open based not just on talent but on play calling. Edited June 30 by oldmanfan 1 Quote
NewEra Posted July 1 Posted July 1 (edited) 8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Yeah sorry @Eastport bills.........your math is a lot fuzzy. 5 receivers plus Cook is 12 players. It's not the CFL. The reality is that in 11 personnel there will be 3 WR and in 12 there will be just 2 WR. If they use Gilliam(21 or 22) that's even more 2 WR sets. So the perceived "depth" of this group isn't a force multiplier it's some dudes that probably won't see the field unless the guys in front of them are ineffective or get injured. That is the mindset though. Even @NewEra is championing the "depth" of the group. We should know better. You judge your WR room by the quality of the top 3(moreso the top 2). Beyond that you hope they have a dynamic punt or kick returner in the bottom 3. Nope and nope. looks like I’m living rent free in your head just like @Thurman#1@Logic@Alphadawg7 and so many others. So- the top 2-3 WRs is how you rank a WR unit- Got it. Meanwhile: -I like Samuel and the nice thing is that he likely has that 600 yard kinda "floor" but might also have the upside to be a poor man's Diggs replacement in 2025 if they decide to cut bait from Stefon. ”As much as I'd love to get Samuel I would like to see them continue to get bigger at WR depth. It's great having guys who can get separation but the catch radius of this WR corps is not ideal and we saw how bad the wind at the Ralph can be late in the season.” ”I think Curtis Samuel could be that guy.........he's a 4.3 guy who could become a top slot WR but also can be a dynamic runner at RB and also is one of the higher rated deep threat WR's.” “I'd rather have Williams and a playmaker like Curtis Samuel......or a pass rusher.......than use that $ retain Milano.” ”I like the proven option in Samuel........he seemed like a perfect fit, legit 4.3 speed but also can play RB and is an excellent deep WR........especially with Beasley in his walk year and getting up there in age.......he could have been a real threat.” ”Samuel is versatile enough to play any of the WR positions and long term he's probably most dangerous from the slot. Beasley is in his walk year and has battled injuries.......Samuel would be the successor there in 2022. He would also become the Bills most dangerous RB option out of the backfield. He's a real RB too.......and legitimately 4.3 fast........not like "fast for a RB" guys like Etienne who people want to spend a high draft pick on. And his #'s as a deep ball receiver are excellent so yeah he can bounce out and play the X or Z.” “Samuel is exceptional on the deep ball........can play slot when Beasley leaves and is actually a trained RB who can produce there too. He was a great fit, IMO” “ Curtis Samuel is a proven and durable young veteran NFL player.........the Bills are ready to win now............he is outstanding not only out of the backfield or slot(where he could succeed Beasley and bounce back and forth between the backfield to allow more versatility).........but he is also a provenexcellent deep ball receiver. He has developed into an unusual player and he's not just elusive.........he's a legit 4.31 speed guy. There aren't as many of those out there as you may think.” “Samuel is not just fast dave..........he was one of the better downfield receivers in the NFL last year. He's not just a juiced up Isaiah McKenzie. He's a RB who converted to WR and is now an outstanding, versatile AND lightning fast WR. I like Sanders but at some point Sanders is gonna' hit the wall. 34 is old for a WR. I already think he's become less impactful than his stats indicate. It would be a shame if it happens in a year when the Bills are considered one of the conference favorites.” “Will Fuller and Curtis Samuel come to mind IMMEDIATELY. Samuel can play slot, outside, RB all while bringing elite speed.” ”2) Curtis Samuel was my top free agent target for reasons already given. That dude ran a 4.31 at the combine......not just some pro day #. That is elite speed and even in this great WR draft you are not likely to find a guy who can be an explosive RB, a dynamic slot and an excellent deep ball receiver” “I would *guess* Samuel gets 3 years $35M or so from a desperate team with a young QB to break-in. He's a better, more versatile player than Cole Beasley was after 2018(4 years $29M) and the value of WR's has increased greater than the salary cap since that time. So I don't think he gets south of $11M aav. That probably pushes him out of the Bills range. Ugly free agent class” ”but I DO expect Curtis Samuel to actually produce and be an impact player in January. He's a real NFL playmaker.” “The time is now for Curtis Samuel. He's in his prime and knows the offense and has had success in it” ———————————- Those are your quotes and your thoughts about our current top WR Curtis Samuel. Here are some of your thoughts on Jordan Matthews. The nicest thing I saw you write was “I like Matthew’s, but he’s a big slot and not many teams want a big slot”. ———————————- Jordan Matthew’s is so good that: “drafting/acquiring the unexceptional Zay Jones and Jordan Matthews and trying to become bigger and slower at WR bordered on inexplicable”. “If you recall the Eagles struggled for months to find any takers for Matthews for any kind of draft capital”. “drafting Zay and trading for KB and Matthews were atrocious”. (Speaking on Allen Hurns) “But when healthy he is more talented than Jordan Matthews”. “They were trying to trade Matthews for months. No takers. He was a throw in.” “Their WR corps to start last season was easily the worst in team history until Deonte and KB were acquired.” ”They are counting on a whole lot from Zay and a bunch of UDFA's to fill WR2-WR6 positions........it's almost unbelievable the WR corps is this shaky when they are trying to break in young QB's McCarron/Allen.” ”or when I accurately predicted that their post-Sammy WR situation would cripple their offensive production when others were hyping other-team-trash like Jordan Matthews. “The Eagles had been shopping Matthews around the league for a long time........no takers......finally threw him in to close the Darby deal.” “Matthews is a better track athlete......lot's of those types in the NFL.........but his actual football skillset is considerably lesser.........particularly the ballskills area.“ “that would've been sick if Molasses Matthews could have gotten to the first down marker.” “Jones Matthews Holmes Tate “Those are your 4 active WR every game...........and Tate is a terrible WR.” “Receiving corps in general has no playmakers.........Jordan Matthews isn't likely to change that at all he's a shaky handed possession specialist” “Jordan Matthews was a much easier fit.........he's a post up, short range receiver on a team with nobody in the WR corps” “Matthews was just a throw in in the Darby trade......Eagles had been trying to deal him for months and got virtually no value back at all for him.” ”but in fairness Matthews was a throw-in”. Some of your thoughts on current WR3-4-5 that would be competing against Andre Holmes- Kaelin clay and Brandon Tate Who are the Bills "deep group of good WR"? It's Diggs.......a huge gap..........and THEN a MVS-like WR3 in GabeDavis” “Since then they dealt Hill and then signed Juju and MVS and they both played up to expectations.......Juju finished 24th in receiving yards and MVS was who he always has been” “People spent years talking about how the Packers were Davante Adams and a bunch of garbage at WR and then a championship team turns around and gives Green Bay's WR2 an 8 figure aav contract. And then he played that role just like he always did......but as the 3rd option instead of the 2nd option........and they won a SB” “And MVS was their version of what Gabe Davis provides the Bills........just further down the ladder where he can exploit matchups.” ”MVS was basically Gabe Davis but with like a dozen less targets.......those two guys are as close of a comp to each other as any two WR's in the NFL” ”He's in the MVS and Gabe category.” Was Andre Holmes in that category too? Obv “MVS is settled in as a 3rd option receiving target in theNFL.........his free agent contract signed last offseason was 3 years $30M..........that's the market for that level of talent.” Similar to andre Holmes I’m sure. Yet- you say the 2017 WR unit is better than the 2024 unit because the top guys are better- riiiiiight. Matthews -Zay-Holmes- Sure sounds like you believe Matthews was better than Samuel. Rookie Zay vs Shakir? LOL. MVS/coleman/ or even claypool vs Holmes? LOL- 🤡-that’s me- 🤣 While you’re the guy that exists here just to combat a few of us that are too optimistic for your liking. The fact that you’re arguing that the 17-18 WR unit is better than the 24 unit is good proof of this. Calling me out because I’m talking about the depth of the 24 unit- while even the top 3 of 24 are clearly better than 17. The only thing you have is “Jordan Matthew’s was a 1000 yard receiver” - and even that’s not true. Close though. Sure seems like you value Matthews more than Samuel 💩 ✌️ Edited July 1 by NewEra 1 1 Quote
FireChans Posted July 1 Posted July 1 20 minutes ago, NewEra said: looks like I’m living rent free in your head just like @Thurman#1@Logic@Alphadawg7 and so many others. So- the top 2-3 WRs is how you rank a WR unit- Got it. Meanwhile: -I like Samuel and the nice thing is that he likely has that 600 yard kinda "floor" but might also have the upside to be a poor man's Diggs replacement in 2025 if they decide to cut bait from Stefon. ”As much as I'd love to get Samuel I would like to see them continue to get bigger at WR depth. It's great having guys who can get separation but the catch radius of this WR corps is not ideal and we saw how bad the wind at the Ralph can be late in the season.” ”I think Curtis Samuel could be that guy.........he's a 4.3 guy who could become a top slot WR but also can be a dynamic runner at RB and also is one of the higher rated deep threat WR's.” “I'd rather have Williams and a playmaker like Curtis Samuel......or a pass rusher.......than use that $ retain Milano.” ”I like the proven option in Samuel........he seemed like a perfect fit, legit 4.3 speed but also can play RB and is an excellent deep WR........especially with Beasley in his walk year and getting up there in age.......he could have been a real threat.” ”Samuel is versatile enough to play any of the WR positions and long term he's probably most dangerous from the slot. Beasley is in his walk year and has battled injuries.......Samuel would be the successor there in 2022. He would also become the Bills most dangerous RB option out of the backfield. He's a real RB too.......and legitimately 4.3 fast........not like "fast for a RB" guys like Etienne who people want to spend a high draft pick on. And his #'s as a deep ball receiver are excellent so yeah he can bounce out and play the X or Z.” “Samuel is exceptional on the deep ball........can play slot when Beasley leaves and is actually a trained RB who can produce there too. He was a great fit, IMO” “ Curtis Samuel is a proven and durable young veteran NFL player.........the Bills are ready to win now............he is outstanding not only out of the backfield or slot(where he could succeed Beasley and bounce back and forth between the backfield to allow more versatility).........but he is also a provenexcellent deep ball receiver. He has developed into an unusual player and he's not just elusive.........he's a legit 4.31 speed guy. There aren't as many of those out there as you may think.” “Samuel is not just fast dave..........he was one of the better downfield receivers in the NFL last year. He's not just a juiced up Isaiah McKenzie. He's a RB who converted to WR and is now an outstanding, versatile AND lightning fast WR. I like Sanders but at some point Sanders is gonna' hit the wall. 34 is old for a WR. I already think he's become less impactful than his stats indicate. It would be a shame if it happens in a year when the Bills are considered one of the conference favorites.” “Will Fuller and Curtis Samuel come to mind IMMEDIATELY. Samuel can play slot, outside, RB all while bringing elite speed.” ”2) Curtis Samuel was my top free agent target for reasons already given. That dude ran a 4.31 at the combine......not just some pro day #. That is elite speed and even in this great WR draft you are not likely to find a guy who can be an explosive RB, a dynamic slot and an excellent deep ball receiver” “I would *guess* Samuel gets 3 years $35M or so from a desperate team with a young QB to break-in. He's a better, more versatile player than Cole Beasley was after 2018(4 years $29M) and the value of WR's has increased greater than the salary cap since that time. So I don't think he gets south of $11M aav. That probably pushes him out of the Bills range. Ugly free agent class” ”but I DO expect Curtis Samuel to actually produce and be an impact player in January. He's a real NFL playmaker.” “The time is now for Curtis Samuel. He's in his prime and knows the offense and has had success in it” ———————————- Those are your quotes and your thoughts about our current top WR Curtis Samuel. Here are some of your thoughts on Jordan Matthews. The nicest thing I saw you write was “I like Matthew’s, but he’s a big slot and not many teams want a big slot”. ———————————- Jordan Matthew’s is so good that: “drafting/acquiring the unexceptional Zay Jones and Jordan Matthews and trying to become bigger and slower at WR bordered on inexplicable”. “If you recall the Eagles struggled for months to find any takers for Matthews for any kind of draft capital”. “drafting Zay and trading for KB and Matthews were atrocious”. (Speaking on Allen Hurns) “But when healthy he is more talented than Jordan Matthews”. “They were trying to trade Matthews for months. No takers. He was a throw in.” “Their WR corps to start last season was easily the worst in team history until Deonte and KB were acquired.” ”They are counting on a whole lot from Zay and a bunch of UDFA's to fill WR2-WR6 positions........it's almost unbelievable the WR corps is this shaky when they are trying to break in young QB's McCarron/Allen.” ”or when I accurately predicted that their post-Sammy WR situation would cripple their offensive production when others were hyping other-team-trash like Jordan Matthews. “The Eagles had been shopping Matthews around the league for a long time........no takers......finally threw him in to close the Darby deal.” “Matthews is a better track athlete......lot's of those types in the NFL.........but his actual football skillset is considerably lesser.........particularly the ballskills area.“ “that would've been sick if Molasses Matthews could have gotten to the first down marker.” “Jones Matthews Holmes Tate “Those are your 4 active WR every game...........and Tate is a terrible WR.” “Receiving corps in general has no playmakers.........Jordan Matthews isn't likely to change that at all he's a shaky handed possession specialist” “Jordan Matthews was a much easier fit.........he's a post up, short range receiver on a team with nobody in the WR corps” “Matthews was just a throw in in the Darby trade......Eagles had been trying to deal him for months and got virtually no value back at all for him.” ”but in fairness Matthews was a throw-in”. Some of your thoughts on current WR3-4-5 that would be competing against Andre Holmes- Kaelin clay and Brandon Tate Who are the Bills "deep group of good WR"? It's Diggs.......a huge gap..........and THEN a MVS-like WR3 in GabeDavis” “Since then they dealt Hill and then signed Juju and MVS and they both played up to expectations.......Juju finished 24th in receiving yards and MVS was who he always has been” “People spent years talking about how the Packers were Davante Adams and a bunch of garbage at WR and then a championship team turns around and gives Green Bay's WR2 an 8 figure aav contract. And then he played that role just like he always did......but as the 3rd option instead of the 2nd option........and they won a SB” “And MVS was their version of what Gabe Davis provides the Bills........just further down the ladder where he can exploit matchups.” ”MVS was basically Gabe Davis but with like a dozen less targets.......those two guys are as close of a comp to each other as any two WR's in the NFL” ”He's in the MVS and Gabe category.” Was Andre Holmes in that category too? Obv “MVS is settled in as a 3rd option receiving target in theNFL.........his free agent contract signed last offseason was 3 years $30M..........that's the market for that level of talent.” Similar to andre Holmes I’m sure. Yet- you say the 2017 WR unit is better than the 2024 unit because the top guys are better- riiiiiight. Matthews -Zay-Holmes- Sure sounds like you believe Matthews was better than Samuel. Rookie Zay vs Shakir? LOL. MVS/coleman/ or even claypool vs Holmes? LOL- 🤡-that’s me- 🤣 While you’re the guy that exists here just to combat a few of us that are too optimistic for your liking. The fact that you’re arguing that the 17-18 WR unit is better than the 24 unit is good proof of this. Calling me out because I’m talking about the depth of the 24 unit- while even the top 3 of 24 are clearly better than 17. The only thing you have is “Jordan Matthew’s was a 1000 yard receiver” - and even that’s not true. Close though. Sure seems like you value Matthews more than Samuel 💩 ✌️ Respect this post but: 1 1 1 1 Quote
NewEra Posted July 1 Posted July 1 1 minute ago, FireChans said: Respect this post but: I was called a clown because I didn’t take the time to look up posts from 7 years ago- I didn’t “research”. I had some down time after work today as my wife is out of town. Quote
BADOLBILZ Posted July 1 Posted July 1 (edited) 14 hours ago, Eastport bills said: In your effort to bury the kid for whatever reason, you neglected to mention he had 50 catches in 12 games and 11 TDs. Prorate that to 17 games and he’s a # 1 on the Bills. It’s Ws buddy. Better than 50% on contested balls. MVS was much better with Rodger’s. If you’re going to be a hater give us the whole story and let these guys play a game with #17 before you give your superior career projections. So you are pro-rating Coleman's college stats to the NFL? And where did you see that Coleman was better than 50% on contested catches? Edited July 1 by BADOLBILZ 1 Quote
JP51 Posted July 1 Posted July 1 On 6/30/2024 at 5:05 AM, oldmanfan said: My guess is Josh and the coaches had had enough of Diggs’ complaints and stuff so they moved him. I can’t imagine Beane does that without Josh agreeing. I agree 100% in fact I wonder if Josh didnt just roll his eyes and be like "please stop"... I actually think Allen may have been frustrated trying to make Diggs happy early in the season. Fact of the matter to me is that when Brady took over the offense moved away from forcing the ball to Diggs... Allen and the team produced.... Quote
BADOLBILZ Posted July 1 Posted July 1 13 hours ago, NewEra said: looks like I’m living rent free in your head just like @Thurman#1@Logic@Alphadawg7 and so many others. So- the top 2-3 WRs is how you rank a WR unit- Got it. Meanwhile: -I like Samuel and the nice thing is that he likely has that 600 yard kinda "floor" but might also have the upside to be a poor man's Diggs replacement in 2025 if they decide to cut bait from Stefon. ”As much as I'd love to get Samuel I would like to see them continue to get bigger at WR depth. It's great having guys who can get separation but the catch radius of this WR corps is not ideal and we saw how bad the wind at the Ralph can be late in the season.” ”I think Curtis Samuel could be that guy.........he's a 4.3 guy who could become a top slot WR but also can be a dynamic runner at RB and also is one of the higher rated deep threat WR's.” “I'd rather have Williams and a playmaker like Curtis Samuel......or a pass rusher.......than use that $ retain Milano.” ”I like the proven option in Samuel........he seemed like a perfect fit, legit 4.3 speed but also can play RB and is an excellent deep WR........especially with Beasley in his walk year and getting up there in age.......he could have been a real threat.” ”Samuel is versatile enough to play any of the WR positions and long term he's probably most dangerous from the slot. Beasley is in his walk year and has battled injuries.......Samuel would be the successor there in 2022. He would also become the Bills most dangerous RB option out of the backfield. He's a real RB too.......and legitimately 4.3 fast........not like "fast for a RB" guys like Etienne who people want to spend a high draft pick on. And his #'s as a deep ball receiver are excellent so yeah he can bounce out and play the X or Z.” “Samuel is exceptional on the deep ball........can play slot when Beasley leaves and is actually a trained RB who can produce there too. He was a great fit, IMO” “ Curtis Samuel is a proven and durable young veteran NFL player.........the Bills are ready to win now............he is outstanding not only out of the backfield or slot(where he could succeed Beasley and bounce back and forth between the backfield to allow more versatility).........but he is also a provenexcellent deep ball receiver. He has developed into an unusual player and he's not just elusive.........he's a legit 4.31 speed guy. There aren't as many of those out there as you may think.” “Samuel is not just fast dave..........he was one of the better downfield receivers in the NFL last year. He's not just a juiced up Isaiah McKenzie. He's a RB who converted to WR and is now an outstanding, versatile AND lightning fast WR. I like Sanders but at some point Sanders is gonna' hit the wall. 34 is old for a WR. I already think he's become less impactful than his stats indicate. It would be a shame if it happens in a year when the Bills are considered one of the conference favorites.” “Will Fuller and Curtis Samuel come to mind IMMEDIATELY. Samuel can play slot, outside, RB all while bringing elite speed.” ”2) Curtis Samuel was my top free agent target for reasons already given. That dude ran a 4.31 at the combine......not just some pro day #. That is elite speed and even in this great WR draft you are not likely to find a guy who can be an explosive RB, a dynamic slot and an excellent deep ball receiver” “I would *guess* Samuel gets 3 years $35M or so from a desperate team with a young QB to break-in. He's a better, more versatile player than Cole Beasley was after 2018(4 years $29M) and the value of WR's has increased greater than the salary cap since that time. So I don't think he gets south of $11M aav. That probably pushes him out of the Bills range. Ugly free agent class” ”but I DO expect Curtis Samuel to actually produce and be an impact player in January. He's a real NFL playmaker.” “The time is now for Curtis Samuel. He's in his prime and knows the offense and has had success in it” ———————————- Those are your quotes and your thoughts about our current top WR Curtis Samuel. Here are some of your thoughts on Jordan Matthews. The nicest thing I saw you write was “I like Matthew’s, but he’s a big slot and not many teams want a big slot”. ———————————- Jordan Matthew’s is so good that: “drafting/acquiring the unexceptional Zay Jones and Jordan Matthews and trying to become bigger and slower at WR bordered on inexplicable”. “If you recall the Eagles struggled for months to find any takers for Matthews for any kind of draft capital”. “drafting Zay and trading for KB and Matthews were atrocious”. (Speaking on Allen Hurns) “But when healthy he is more talented than Jordan Matthews”. “They were trying to trade Matthews for months. No takers. He was a throw in.” “Their WR corps to start last season was easily the worst in team history until Deonte and KB were acquired.” ”They are counting on a whole lot from Zay and a bunch of UDFA's to fill WR2-WR6 positions........it's almost unbelievable the WR corps is this shaky when they are trying to break in young QB's McCarron/Allen.” ”or when I accurately predicted that their post-Sammy WR situation would cripple their offensive production when others were hyping other-team-trash like Jordan Matthews. “The Eagles had been shopping Matthews around the league for a long time........no takers......finally threw him in to close the Darby deal.” “Matthews is a better track athlete......lot's of those types in the NFL.........but his actual football skillset is considerably lesser.........particularly the ballskills area.“ “that would've been sick if Molasses Matthews could have gotten to the first down marker.” “Jones Matthews Holmes Tate “Those are your 4 active WR every game...........and Tate is a terrible WR.” “Receiving corps in general has no playmakers.........Jordan Matthews isn't likely to change that at all he's a shaky handed possession specialist” “Jordan Matthews was a much easier fit.........he's a post up, short range receiver on a team with nobody in the WR corps” “Matthews was just a throw in in the Darby trade......Eagles had been trying to deal him for months and got virtually no value back at all for him.” ”but in fairness Matthews was a throw-in”. Some of your thoughts on current WR3-4-5 that would be competing against Andre Holmes- Kaelin clay and Brandon Tate Who are the Bills "deep group of good WR"? It's Diggs.......a huge gap..........and THEN a MVS-like WR3 in GabeDavis” “Since then they dealt Hill and then signed Juju and MVS and they both played up to expectations.......Juju finished 24th in receiving yards and MVS was who he always has been” “People spent years talking about how the Packers were Davante Adams and a bunch of garbage at WR and then a championship team turns around and gives Green Bay's WR2 an 8 figure aav contract. And then he played that role just like he always did......but as the 3rd option instead of the 2nd option........and they won a SB” “And MVS was their version of what Gabe Davis provides the Bills........just further down the ladder where he can exploit matchups.” ”MVS was basically Gabe Davis but with like a dozen less targets.......those two guys are as close of a comp to each other as any two WR's in the NFL” ”He's in the MVS and Gabe category.” Was Andre Holmes in that category too? Obv “MVS is settled in as a 3rd option receiving target in theNFL.........his free agent contract signed last offseason was 3 years $30M..........that's the market for that level of talent.” Similar to andre Holmes I’m sure. Yet- you say the 2017 WR unit is better than the 2024 unit because the top guys are better- riiiiiight. Matthews -Zay-Holmes- Sure sounds like you believe Matthews was better than Samuel. Rookie Zay vs Shakir? LOL. MVS/coleman/ or even claypool vs Holmes? LOL- 🤡-that’s me- 🤣 While you’re the guy that exists here just to combat a few of us that are too optimistic for your liking. The fact that you’re arguing that the 17-18 WR unit is better than the 24 unit is good proof of this. Calling me out because I’m talking about the depth of the 24 unit- while even the top 3 of 24 are clearly better than 17. The only thing you have is “Jordan Matthew’s was a 1000 yard receiver” - and even that’s not true. Close though. Sure seems like you value Matthews more than Samuel 💩 ✌️ Looks like a lot of good-to-great takes. Thank you for digging those up. I liked Curtis Samuel back in 2021. Would I have liked to bring him in instead of Emmanuel Sanders? Absolutely. His star was rising. Would it have been nice to have a player like that so that they didn't have to extend Diggs early? Definitely. That was a great take by me. Their problems with Diggs started when they extended him. I accurately predicted that the only reason that he wasn't a pain in the a$$ was his lack of contract leverage. I like Samuel now too.........but not as WR1. In an offense where your TE Kincaid is the top target getter.......your X is a WR1 like DK Metcalf.......and your slot is Shakir........yeah I think Samuel at flanker is fine. Keep in mind.......in that offense Shakir or Samuel are off the field somewhere between 20% and 50% of the snaps. 12 is the second most run personnel combination at 19% league wide. And yeah, I hated that 2017 WR group. I've made that clear and I did think that was the worst WR group they'd taken into a season in my lifetime. But where this 2024 group ranks, relative to the rest of the league, is arguably as bad or worse. I don't care if the 5th WR is better. You judge a WR corps by their numbers. Just because I was spot-on about Matthews being over-rated doesn't mean he hadn't been effective. 6'3" 236 with a 4.46 40 time as a second round pick in 2014. You had to have watched him to know that those numbers don't translate(same with Clayfool). That's not by any means to compare offense's. They have Josh Allen and Kincaid/Knox now. As for MVS.........he and Gabe were neck and neck as low-efficiency big ypc guys with bad hands for a few years but MVS is entering his age 30 season and Gabe will be 25 this season. That's a big age gap. MVS being much older washed ashore last season. Quote
Eastport bills Posted July 1 Posted July 1 1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said: So you are pro-rating Coleman's college stats to the NFL? And where did you see that Coleman was better than 50% on contested catches? What’s the obsession with killing this kid before he plays a game. His production in 12 games was tops in the ACC. In a run heavy offense he scored 11 TDs . He caught 50 balls in an offense where he was doubled a lot. He was great in the punt return game. What is your problem? Is it that you root against the Bills and criticize everything they do? Good luck. 1 Quote
BADOLBILZ Posted July 1 Posted July 1 1 hour ago, Eastport bills said: What’s the obsession with killing this kid before he plays a game. His production in 12 games was tops in the ACC. In a run heavy offense he scored 11 TDs . He caught 50 balls in an offense where he was doubled a lot. He was great in the punt return game. What is your problem? Is it that you root against the Bills and criticize everything they do? Good luck. You are just wildly hyperbolizing Keon Coleman's accomplishments. "His production in 12 games was tops in the ACC." Coleman's ACC receiving ranks: 12th in receptions. (50 when the leader had 110) 14th in receiving yards. (a paltry 658 yards when the leader had 1426) 19th in yards per catch (13.2 when the leader had 18.5) The only thing Coleman lead the ACC in was TD receptions. I like Coleman's physical traits but he did not produce at a high level in college. He is a projection. The root of projection is project. We aren't talking about a guy like Greg Rousseau who put up huge sack numbers in one season. Coleman did not have a single 800 yard season in college even. Being honest and realistic about what he's accomplished is not "killing the kid". 2 Quote
BADOLBILZ Posted July 1 Posted July 1 17 hours ago, oldmanfan said: You are the most ridiculous person here and that’s saying something. I said I think the idea of # 1 vs 2 etc for WRs is a bit overblown and you somehow turn it into stuff about matchups and then incredibly switch it to some rant about QBs. QBs are the most important players in any position in sports and we have a great one. The idea of #1 vs 2 vs whatever is to me overblown and guys will get open based not just on talent but on play calling. And likewise I think you may be the most football ignorant. Where a receiver ranks in the pecking order determines his matchups. Obviously. You want a WR1 who can win matchups against good CB1's. The Bills don't have that. If the Bills didn't have a good QB you'd be making a case for why they don't need one. That's what you are, an apologist. That's fine, but you will get called out for spreading that ignorance. 1 Quote
Eastport bills Posted July 1 Posted July 1 4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: You are just wildly hyperbolizing Keon Coleman's accomplishments. "His production in 12 games was tops in the ACC." Coleman's ACC receiving ranks: 12th in receptions. (50 when the leader had 110) 14th in receiving yards. (a paltry 658 yards when the leader had 1426) 19th in yards per catch (13.2 when the leader had 18.5) The only thing Coleman lead the ACC in was TD receptions. I like Coleman's physical traits but he did not produce at a high level in college. He is a projection. The root of projection is project. We aren't talking about a guy like Greg Rousseau who put up huge sack numbers in one season. Coleman did not have a single 800 yard season in college even. Being honest and realistic about what he's accomplished is not "killing the kid". As far as I know isn’t the stat of TDs the most important relative to winning games. We already know the Fla State offense was run heavy so 50 receptions on an undefeated team is impressive. Unfortunately you have decided this rookie is not ready for the NFL I guess you’re most qualified to dismiss him. Quote
oldmanfan Posted July 1 Posted July 1 1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said: And likewise I think you may be the most football ignorant. Where a receiver ranks in the pecking order determines his matchups. Obviously. You want a WR1 who can win matchups against good CB1's. The Bills don't have that. If the Bills didn't have a good QB you'd be making a case for why they don't need one. That's what you are, an apologist. That's fine, but you will get called out for spreading that ignorance. I guess Shakir fits the bill then Quote
BillsVet Posted July 1 Posted July 1 10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I guess Shakir fits the bill then "Hey, here's one play in a game that proves my point the Bills WR's are really good." I'm really trying hard not to see you as a parody account, but I've seen more parody takes in this thread than I believed possible. It's why my prediction is you and select others by Week 8 will either be (1) finding excuses for the lack of offensive production (particularly the WR's) or (2) completely invisible from TSW. A few brave souls will acknowledge the Bills passing game and overall offensive philosophy wasn't ready for primetime or sufficient for the QB. 1 Quote
oldmanfan Posted July 1 Posted July 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, BillsVet said: "Hey, here's one play in a game that proves my point the Bills WR's are really good." I'm really trying hard not to see you as a parody account, but I've seen more parody takes in this thread than I believed possible. It's why my prediction is you and select others by Week 8 will either be (1) finding excuses for the lack of offensive production (particularly the WR's) or (2) completely invisible from TSW. A few brave souls will acknowledge the Bills passing game and overall offensive philosophy wasn't ready for primetime or sufficient for the QB. Just stop it. Obviously one play does not tell the story. But it does serve to rebut statements such as that the Bills do not have any receivers that can beat a top tier CB. Maybe you and your buddies should quit speaking in absolute negatives. I have also been a fan of the Bills since sitting in the Rockpile for the home opener in 1960. So spare me the crap about becoming invisible if things don’t go well. I have said numerous times this season will depend on Beady’s offensive schemes and Josh going to the open guy vs. just making Diggs gets his touches. I have also said if Beane decides to bring in a guy like Aiyuk that would be just great. How about this? How about the negative Nancys just see how things shake out? Instead of assuming for example that neither Shakir nor Samuel can continue to improve? Or how Coleman will struggle adjusting to the NFL? Or whether Kincaid and Knox become a killer duo? Or that Brady does a good job? They might and we’ll look good. They might not and they won’t. But going into the season assuming doom or gloom? Perhaps you can explain why that’s beneficial. Edited July 1 by oldmanfan 1 Quote
Don Otreply Posted July 1 Posted July 1 On 6/29/2024 at 5:12 PM, Kirby Jackson said: …with every single guy experiencing more defensive attention than they have in their careers. Expect less space and better players to be across from you. If Diggs was commanding all of the attention, it’s getting pushed to a bunch of guys with less talent than Diggs. That’s really not debatable. Ya gotta remember, Diggs was not being double covered as much as many here seem to think, Diggs was not getting separation a good deal of the time during the second half of last season, on top of, frankly, never being a game changer in the playoffs (nine playoff games, two touchdowns) Quote
oldmanfan Posted July 1 Posted July 1 2 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: Ya gotta remember, Diggs was not being double covered as much as many here seem to think, Diggs was not getting separation a good deal of the time during the second half of last season, on top of, frankly, never being a game changer in the playoffs (nine playoff games, two touchdowns) Never let facts obscure opinion… Quote
Kirby Jackson Posted July 1 Posted July 1 12 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: Ya gotta remember, Diggs was not being double covered as much as many here seem to think, Diggs was not getting separation a good deal of the time during the second half of last season, on top of, frankly, never being a game changer in the playoffs (nine playoff games, two touchdowns) When someone got shadowed it was him. He regularly saw the #1 CB. He often saw a S over the top as well. He was the main focus of defenses n the passing game (for 4 years). My point was that, now, someone else will see that #1 CB. If they don’t have a S helping, that’s another defender to “roam.” The windows will in turn be tighter. There will be less space for the pass catchers to operate. I’m not sure that is up for debate? Sauce/Ramsey/Gonzalez would have spent their time on Diggs. Now, it will be spent on Samuel/Coleman/Shakir. 13 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Never let facts obscure opinion… What facts are you disputing? Are you disputing that Diggs saw opposing team’s best CB? Are you disputing that they often had S help vs. Diggs? Please elaborate… Quote
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