I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Einstein]

8 hours ago, QCity said:

So far this offseason I've learned you cannot win while paying 2 top tier WRs, Samuel is more talented than Diggs, and 40 times don't matter. Fans just twisting themselves into knots trying to convince themselves that everything is ok.

 

Tale as old as time. Fans convince themselves, against all logic, that the position group or team is better than it is. Reminds me of when fans convinced themselves that Kyle Orton was going to step in and lead us to the playoffs.

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, Eastport bills said:

You expect a response? 

Well, it’s obviously an important reason for the others success. If Diggs was taking the attention of 2 guys (usually including the team’s number 1 CB) someone needs to be doing that for everyone else to have the space that they previously had. My question for you is who is taking the double team? 

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Was there a "starting X" at all in the draft this year at the back end of the 1st round?

 

Obviously Beane didn't think so, exactly, or he would have stayed put and pulled the trigger. Is Worthy that guy in year one? That seems like a reach tbh. (Nevermind how much I wanted the Bills to draft him at 28.)

 

 

Lamenting the loss of the 5th year option in that 2nd trade back is kinda silly innit? If Coleman actually turns out to be 5th year option-worthy, then the additional trade-back into the 2nd rd will look even smarter. By that point, there is no current WR in the pipeline preventing the Bills from signing Coleman before and/or after year four. It's a "good problem" to have. 

 

 

Didn't Beane more or less say Coleman was going to be the X?   You don't draft a guy that high, be very specific about his position and not expect him to start.

 

I was in Wegmans yesterday and they have this Keon Coleman in-action NFLPA branded t-shirt for sale for like $40 or so. 

 

https://breakingt.com/products/keon-coleman-state-star?currency=USD&variant=40350109040689&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&stkn=429f07e91590&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI97qp8ZCBhwMVMDMIBR2i0gPKEAQYICABEgL8xvD_Bw

E

 

Anyone who says Coleman has been slept on or disrespected(and there are a bunch on here) is a sand-bagger.

 

Coleman has been up-sold to the fanbase as Diggs' successor.   He has gotten the most hype of any Bills initial draft selection since Josh Allen(naturally, because he was a QB) and probably since Sammy Watkins(who was a college superstar) prior to that.  

 

Coleman had basically done squadoosh in college. 

 

And yeah the fifth year option isn't a big deal.  His profile screams "project".   It wouldn't surprise if the jury was still way out on him going into his walk year and/or the Bills had lost patience and paid big money for a vet or drafted a different potential WR1 by then.   So you don't want to have to disrespect a 23 year old guy after year 3 by not picking up his option.  If he turns into Davante Adams 2.0 in the meantime you will want to pay him long term anyway. 

[Beck Water]

35 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Didn't Beane more or less say Coleman was going to be the X?   You don't draft a guy that high, be very specific about his position and not expect him to start.

 

I was in Wegmans yesterday and they have this Keon Coleman in-action NFLPA branded t-shirt for sale for like $40 or so. 

 

https://breakingt.com/products/keon-coleman-state-star?currency=USD&variant=40350109040689&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&stkn=429f07e91590&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI97qp8ZCBhwMVMDMIBR2i0gPKEAQYICABEgL8xvD_Bw

E

 

Anyone who says Coleman has been slept on or disrespected(and there are a bunch on here) is a sand-bagger.

 

Coleman has been up-sold to the fanbase as Diggs' successor.   He has gotten the most hype of any Bills initial draft selection since Josh Allen(naturally, because he was a QB) and probably since Sammy Watkins(who was a college superstar) prior to that.  

 

Beane didn't "more or less" say Coleman was going to be the X, he flat out said we see him as our X.  However, as OTAs progress and the Coleman hype train gathers momentum, it's been notable that Beane has been trying to "manage expectations", talking about how young he is (I had Edmunds flashbacks), "he’s going to have bumps in the road. He’s a rookie, and I think we all need to understand that."  I believe he's also said some stuff about having other guys in the room who can do it if the rookies can't right away.

 

I think there are two separate issues perhaps being conflated a bit here.  One is Beane/McDermott's expectations: yes, they expect Coleman to play, but Beane is also giving off vibes he's not going out there for a lion's share of the snaps no matter what, he's got to master the playbook and earn his playing time.  I don't think he's hyping him as Diggs successor.  Instead Brady is talking about spreading the ball around.

 

The other is the Coleman Hype Train.  We have an off season devoid of significant free agent moves, where the team's biggest offensive weapon for the last 4 years (outside QB) got unceremoniously traded and not clearly replaced.  Then we have our top draft pick turn out to be a Goldmine for sound bites.  So yeah, the Biols PR is running with him and he's getting hyped up a bunch in the press. 

 

Maybe he's getting up-sold as Diggs successor, but I don't hear that as coming from Beane or McDermott.  From the Bills PR side of things, I think it's more he's enormously personable and a great interview and Beane didn't give them much of anyone else to talk about.

 

TL;DR two separate issues here:

1) How Beane and McDermott see Coleman's contributions year one and how they present him to the press

2) How the Bills PR machine and press are hyping him up

Edited June 29 by Beck Water

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

Beane didn't "more or less" say Coleman was going to be the X, he flat out said we see him as our X.  However, as OTAs progress and the Coleman hype train gathers momentum, it's been notable that Beane has been trying to "manage expectations", talking about how young he is (I had Edmunds flashbacks), "he’s going to have bumps in the road. He’s a rookie, and I think we all need to understand that."  I believe he's also said some stuff about having other guys in the room who can do it if the rookies can't right away.

 

I think there are two separate issues perhaps being conflated a bit here.  One is Beane/McDermott's expectations: yes, they expect Coleman to play, but Beane is also giving off vibes he's not going out there for a lion's share of the snaps no matter what, he's got to master the playbook and earn his playing time.

 

The other is the Coleman Hype Train.  Here we have an off season devoid of significant free agent moves, where the team's biggest offensive weapon for the last 4 years (outside QB) got unceremoniously traded and not clearly replaced.  Then we have our top draft pick turn out to be a Goldmine for sound bites.  So yeah, the Biols PR is running with him and he's getting hyped up a bunch in the press. 

 

Maybe he's getting up-sold as Diggs successor, but I don't hear that as coming from Beane or McDermott.  From the Bills PR side of things, I think it's more he's enormously personable and a great interview and Beane didn't give them much of anyone else to talk about.

 

 

You may see it as conflated but the point is that there has been a lot of hype about Coleman and we have a faction of folks on here who think he's been discounted or even that nobody thought he was a starting X WR.    That's not the case from the team OR the media OR the fans.   A lot is now expected of the guy.  

 

I think Beane spoke out of turn by basically proclaiming him the starter because he was trying to control the narrative that he hadn't done enough at the boundary WR positions.   That gave license to others to expand on it.

 

I agree that he's backing off but I don't think he needed to see him in OTA's to know he might not be ready for prime time.  How could he?   Coleman did not resemble the kind of "finished product" that usually becomes a good starting X WR as a rookie.  

 

There is a reason similar physical profiles like Puka Nacua and Rashee Rice were played in the slot.   Unless Shakir's injuries prove nagging Coleman probably isn't going to get that luxury.

[Eastport bills]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Well, it’s obviously an important reason for the others success. If Diggs was taking the attention of 2 guys (usually including the team’s number 1 CB) someone needs to be doing that for everyone else to have the space that they previously had. My question for you is who is taking the double team? 

At the expense of your #1 getting a fraction of the targets as in Digg’s case, the answer is no one receiver will command double coverage until he establishes himself as the main target. Look for Josh to spread the ball around with a balanced attack featuring Cook and Davis running and catching balls downfield. 

[BullBuchanan]

On 6/27/2024 at 4:50 PM, Beck Water said:

 

You're Too Much, you really are.  First you want to argue that 2017 had a better group because "Matthews had better recent seasons" in 2017 than any WR on our roster now.  OK, as far as "recent seasons" of 2015 and 2016, Fair.  He had a 997 and an 804 yd season in 2015 and 2016 with Sam Bradford/Marc Sanchez and then rookie Carson Wentz throwing to him, and he was their best WR (though far from their only quality target - they had Ertz)

 

There's a valid point about needing more than one quality target that you skate by, but let it go for now...

 

You then turn around and focus, not on recent seasons, but on "pedigree".  What about "recent seasons"?  They don't matter now when "pedigree" serves your point?  In the year I mentioned (2010), Evans recent season was 16 games, 44 receptions, 612 yds and that's ~ the level he achieved in 2010 as well.

 

If we're gonna extoll "pedigree", then let's talk about Valdez-Scantling's 2020 season where he led the league with 20.9 Y/R and racked up 33 receptions for 690 yds, and Chase Claypool's "pedigree" of 62 receptions, 873 yds in 2020 and 59 receptions for 860 yds in 2021.  Impressive!  Oh, not so much?  Yeah, because "pedigree" doesn't matter.

 

The NFL isn't about "pedigree", it's about "what have you done lately?"

So, this post is all about you talking umbrage with my use of the word "pedigree"?

Fine, I'll rephrase. Lee Evans would be the best WR on the 2024 roster.

[Kirby Jackson]

4 hours ago, Eastport bills said:

At the expense of your #1 getting a fraction of the targets as in Digg’s case, the answer is no one receiver will command double coverage until he establishes himself as the main target. Look for Josh to spread the ball around with a balanced attack featuring Cook and Davis running and catching balls downfield. 

…with every single guy experiencing more defensive attention than they have in their careers. Expect less space and better players to be across from you. If Diggs was commanding all of the attention, it’s getting pushed to a bunch of guys with less talent than Diggs. That’s really not debatable.

[oldmanfan]

16 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

…with every single guy experiencing more defensive attention than they have in their careers. Expect less space and better players to be across from you. If Diggs was commanding all of the attention, it’s getting pushed to a bunch of guys with less talent than Diggs. That’s really not debatable.

You should read up on some Greg Cosell stuff.  I think he’s the guy who said Diggs wasn’t a Tier 1 guy last year.  So it is somewhat debatable.

 

This group will succeed or fail based on Brady’s schemes to get them open.

[eball]

8 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

But most of the “core” of the team is still here. The Bills only parted ways with the older, more expensive, injured and/or disgruntled players. The starting offense is the same except for two WRs and Morse. The defense is only flipping the safeties and a CB who has been injured. You put forth a narrative that may be appealing, but it is not at all accurate.

 

As for the Pegulas appetite for spending as the team moves forward, I hope it is big. But it’s TBD. 

Sorry, we disagree. Diggs, Davis, Poyer, Hyde, and Morse were all considered “core” guys on this team. That’s 5 out of 22 starters. The “core” that’s left is Allen, Dawkins, Knox, Milano, and Oliver. Everyone else were new starters a year ago, free agents, or young guys in their 1st, 2nd, or 3rd years — you may hope they become the “core” but they aren’t there yet (Epenesa, Rousseau, etc.).

 

The true point remains, though, that there is no evidence Pegula intends to go cheap rather than trying to win championships. 
 

[Kirby Jackson]

8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You should read up on some Greg Cosell stuff.  I think he’s the guy who said Diggs wasn’t a Tier 1 guy last year.  So it is somewhat debatable.

 

This group will succeed or fail based on Brady’s schemes to get them open.

Omg, no. I have read plenty of Cosell. So if he’s a “top of tier 2 guy” he’s 3 levels (at least) higher than anyone currently on the roster. It’s not debatable 😂😂
 

I agree that it will be up to Brady to scheme them open. That’s the corner that the Bills have backed themselves into by entering July with a bottom 3 WR room. I laugh when people say, “he schemed guys open at LSU.” Jefferson and Chase were his top 2 WRs!! Lol, I could have schemed them open. We will see if he can take a bottom 3 WR room and turn them into a bottom 10 group. It’s possible but on paper they aren’t close to there now.

[Eastport bills]

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

…with every single guy experiencing more defensive attention than they have in their careers. Expect less space and better players to be across from you. If Diggs was commanding all of the attention, it’s getting pushed to a bunch of guys with less talent than Diggs. That’s really not debatable.

If we are lining up 4 or 5 receivers in the formation and Cook in the backfield with Allen, the defense has to account for Allen and Cook and only one of the single covered players has to win their battle. Why are you afraid of single coverage against Shakir, Samuel or Kincaid. Mismatch heaven with Cook and if Davis and Cook can cause heavy boxes, Allen will pick secondaries apart. Remember, we were able to win 6 of seven without Diggs averaging 50 or 60 yards and he wasn’t being doubled in most of those games and Davis did nothing. We have better depth at receiver this year.

[oldmanfan]

18 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Omg, no. I have read plenty of Cosell. So if he’s a “top of tier 2 guy” he’s 3 levels (at least) higher than anyone currently on the roster. It’s not debatable 😂😂
 

I agree that it will be up to Brady to scheme them open. That’s the corner that the Bills have backed themselves into by entering July with a bottom 3 WR room. I laugh when people say, “he schemed guys open at LSU.” Jefferson and Chase were his top 2 WRs!! Lol, I could have schemed them open. We will see if he can take a bottom 3 WR room and turn them into a bottom 10 group. It’s possible but on paper they aren’t close to there now.

So your opinion is that no young guys can ever get better, nor old guys never get worse.  A Diggs will always be phenomenal and a Samuel or Shakir will never amount to anything.  Got it.

 

And by the way 2+2 = 4 is not debatable.  Opinions on football players always are.

Edited June 29 by oldmanfan

[Kirby Jackson]

20 minutes ago, Eastport bills said:

If we are lining up 4 or 5 receivers in the formation and Cook in the backfield with Allen, the defense has to account for Allen and Cook and only one of the single covered players has to win their battle. Why are you afraid of single coverage against Shakir, Samuel or Kincaid. Mismatch heaven with Cook and if Davis and Cook can cause heavy boxes, Allen will pick secondaries apart. Remember, we were able to win 6 of seven without Diggs averaging 50 or 60 yards and he wasn’t being doubled in most of those games and Davis did nothing. We have better depth at receiver this year.

My goodness. Why would you send 5 WRs out there if you have a bottom 3 WR room? The Bills need to play primarily from 12 this year. Kincaid is their best pass catcher. We have depth because we have about 6 guys that could be 3-5 on other team’s depth charts (excluding the Bears, we don’t have anyone above 4 there). Teams still had to gameplan for Diggs. That freed up so much space for everyone else. Without that threat the windows tighten. We are in a division with Sauce, Ramsey and Christian Gonzalez. Those guys are way better football players than the WRs lining up across from them. 
 

I am not trying to be doom and gloom. I’m being a realist. The Bills are absolutely a bottom 3 WR room as of today. Can they outperform that? Sure. They can play well and be bottom 10. They can end up a top 3 TE room and a top 10 RB room. If all of that happens they are okay. They can address the top of the WR depth chart next year. They have an elite QB that covers mistakes. Just because Josh is amazing doesn’t mean that the WRs are.

9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

So your opinion is that no young guys can ever get better, nor old guys never get worse.  A Diggs will always be phenomenal and a Samuel or Shakir will never amount to anything.  Got it.

 

And by the way 2+2 = 4 is not debatable.  Opinions on football players always are.

I never said that anyone couldn’t get better. I said that as of today that’s who they are. Please find quotes from me saying, “guys can never get better.” Post them here…

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

So, this post is all about you talking umbrage with my use of the word "pedigree"?

Fine, I'll rephrase. Lee Evans would be the best WR on the 2024 roster.

Lee Evans would’ve been the best WR on the last 2 Super Bowl championship teams too.  

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

My goodness. Why would you send 5 WRs out there if you have a bottom 3 WR room? The Bills need to play primarily from 12 this year. Kincaid is their best pass catcher. We have depth because we have about 6 guys that could be 3-5 on other team’s depth charts (excluding the Bears, we don’t have anyone above 4 there). Teams still had to gameplan for Diggs. That freed up so much space for everyone else. Without that threat the windows tighten. We are in a division with Sauce, Ramsey and Christian Gonzalez. Those guys are way better football players than the WRs lining up across from them. 
 

I am not trying to be doom and gloom. I’m being a realist. The Bills are absolutely a bottom 3 WR room as of today. Can they outperform that? Sure. They can play well and be bottom 10. They can end up a top 3 TE room and a top 10 RB room. If all of that happens they are okay. They can address the top of the WR depth chart next year. They have an elite QB that covers mistakes. Just because Josh is amazing doesn’t mean that the WRs are.

You are doom and gloom because of 1 guy out of 5 in the WR group.  Diggs.  Samuel and Shakir are 2 or 3 guys, however you want to define WR “#”.  MVS was good enough to be a contributor on the SB winner.  And we see what the rookie brings.  Meanwhile Diggs will be probably the third option in Houston. 

Edited June 29 by oldmanfan

[Augie]

I expect that the Bills will make WR a high priority next year as well, whether it be free agency or the draft.  (I’d  prefer a cheaper, younger player.)  I’m hoping for the best, and thinking they are out of great options for now. Let’s see how it plays out. We may be surprised, or we may be exposed. There is always the trade deadline if we have injuries or clearly need help. A 3rd rounder for a CB was the only path to the playoffs last year due to injury. 

 

 

 

.

 

Edited June 29 by Augie

[oldmanfan]

7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

My goodness. Why would you send 5 WRs out there if you have a bottom 3 WR room? The Bills need to play primarily from 12 this year. Kincaid is their best pass catcher. We have depth because we have about 6 guys that could be 3-5 on other team’s depth charts (excluding the Bears, we don’t have anyone above 4 there). Teams still had to gameplan for Diggs. That freed up so much space for everyone else. Without that threat the windows tighten. We are in a division with Sauce, Ramsey and Christian Gonzalez. Those guys are way better football players than the WRs lining up across from them. 
 

I am not trying to be doom and gloom. I’m being a realist. The Bills are absolutely a bottom 3 WR room as of today. Can they outperform that? Sure. They can play well and be bottom 10. They can end up a top 3 TE room and a top 10 RB room. If all of that happens they are okay. They can address the top of the WR depth chart next year. They have an elite QB that covers mistakes. Just because Josh is amazing doesn’t mean that the WRs are.

I never said that anyone couldn’t get better. I said that as of today that’s who they are. Please find quotes from me saying, “guys can never get better.” Post them here…

That seemed to be your implication.  Glad to hear you recognize this.

[Kirby Jackson]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You are doom and gloom because of 1 guy out of 5 in the WR group.  Diggs.  Samuel and Shakir are 2 or 3 guys, however you want to define WR “#”.  MVS was good enough to be a contributor on the SB winner.  And we see what the rookie brings.  Meanwhile Diggs will be probably the third option in Houston. 

Stop gaslighting and post the quotes that you’re claiming…

 

If you like this WR room, I’m happy for you. If you think that they are good, you aren’t following what other teams have at the position. MVS was good enough to get 42 targets, 5th on the Chiefs. He got 1 more than Noah Gray. I agree that Samuel and Shakir are somewhere between 2 & 3. They’re playing as 1 & 2 (with Coleman in a similar place). All of those guys are between the 50th - 100th best WRs in the league.

 

 

[oldmanfan]

20 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Stop gaslighting and post the quotes that you’re claiming…

 

If you like this WR room, I’m happy for you. If you think that they are good, you aren’t following what other teams have at the position. MVS was good enough to get 42 targets, 5th on the Chiefs. He got 1 more than Noah Gray. I agree that Samuel and Shakir are somewhere between 2 & 3. They’re playing as 1 & 2 (with Coleman in a similar place). All of those guys are between the 50th - 100th best WRs in the league.

 

 

I think all the # designations for WRs are a bit overblown myself.   As for gaslighting, compare last year to this year at the WR spot.  The biggest difference is Diggs.  Samuel is at least even with Davis, Shakir is back, and Coleman and MVS are better than the other guys from last year.  So if your claim that all of a sudden the Bills WR corps is terrible is not based solely on Diggs, then what are you basing it on?