I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

What makes you so co confident this group is better than that? Matthews had better recent seasons than any WR on our roster? Replace JA with Tyrod taylor and are you really saying it isn't much of a coinflip? I'm absolutely not.
 

Lee Evans had more pedigree than every WR on our roster combined. A lot fo teams don't have more than 1 very good WR, if they even have that. 2010 was nothing to scoff at.

 

You're Too Much, you really are.  First you want to argue that 2017 had a better group because "Matthews had better recent seasons" in 2017 than any WR on our roster now.  OK, as far as "recent seasons" of 2015 and 2016, Fair.  He had a 997 and an 804 yd season in 2015 and 2016 with Sam Bradford/Marc Sanchez and then rookie Carson Wentz throwing to him, and he was their best WR (though far from their only quality target - they had Ertz)

 

There's a valid point about needing more than one quality target that you skate by, but let it go for now...

 

You then turn around and focus, not on recent seasons, but on "pedigree".  What about "recent seasons"?  They don't matter now when "pedigree" serves your point?  In the year I mentioned (2010), Evans recent season was 16 games, 44 receptions, 612 yds and that's ~ the level he achieved in 2010 as well.

 

If we're gonna extoll "pedigree", then let's talk about Valdez-Scantling's 2020 season where he led the league with 20.9 Y/R and racked up 33 receptions for 690 yds, and Chase Claypool's "pedigree" of 62 receptions, 873 yds in 2020 and 59 receptions for 860 yds in 2021.  Impressive!  Oh, not so much?  Yeah, because "pedigree" doesn't matter.

 

The NFL isn't about "pedigree", it's about "what have you done lately?"

[TheWeatherMan]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I knew Zay wasn't it and Benjamin was a bust by 2018.

Stop with the I told you so rhetoric.  You KNEW FOR AN ABSOLUTE FACT that Josh Allen was going to be a complete bust.  Would you like me to dig up your post?  This isn’t the only premonition way off the mark.  Your mock drafts (based on your in depth film study of all 300+ prospects) are usually way off the mark.  I appreciate the effort you put into the mocks and the player run downs, but I think some humility would go a long way.  

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, TheWeatherMan said:

Stop with the I told you so rhetoric.  You KNEW FOR AN ABSOLUTE FACT that Josh Allen was going to be a complete bust.  Would you like me to dig up your post?  This isn’t the only premonition way off the mark.  Your mock drafts (based on your in depth film study of all 300+ prospects) are usually way off the mark.  I appreciate the effort you put into the mocks and the player run downs, but I think some humility would go a long way.  

 

I was wrong on Josh Allen. That humility has long since been demonstrated. 

 

But I called Zay and Kelvin before 2018 and on that I was right. So if you want me to take the lumps for the misses (and I agree, I should) you have to also credit the hits. 

 

My last few first round mocks have been pretty darn good as well (27, 27, 28 of the 32 first rounders the last 3 years). And I don't know who has told you I do 300+ prospects. My number is usually around half that. I get to 140-150 give or take. 

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

What makes you so co confident this group is better than that? Matthews had better recent seasons than any WR on our roster? Replace JA with Tyrod taylor and are you really saying it isn't much of a coinflip? I'm absolutely not.

That said, if you want to argue that two year period, fine. You won't find another where we didn't have at least one legitimate WR on the roster. We had Reed, moulds, Evans, S.Johnson, Woods, Watkins covering the entire preceding span among others. Feel free to die on this hill.

Lee Evans had more pedigree than every WR on our roster combined. A lot fo teams don't have more than 1 very good WR, if they even have that. 2010 was nothing to scoff at.

You like to talk a good game- yet you say that:

 

Jordan Matthew

Zay jones (rookie season)

Andre Holmes

Brandon Tate

Kaelin Clay

Joe Webb

 

is better than

 

Samuel

Shakir

Coleman

MVS

Hollins

Claypool

 

The last 4 guys in 2017 are complete GARBAGE-  none were ever as good as any of the 6 from this season (if that happens to be our 6).  You’re basing everything on the fact that Jordan Matthews put up decent stats at that point.

 

He was so good that Philly gave us a 3rd pick AND Matthews for Darby

 

but yeah—- this group is worse than every WR group in the last 40 years 👌 

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I knew Zay wasn't it and Benjamin was a bust by 2018.

So you mean that this isn’t the worst WR unit in the last 40 years?  That’s the rumor 

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

I think if Kincaid takes another large step to elite, I will feel much better about our offense. Ditto with Shakir, or Coleman being an out of the box star.

 

But that’s kinda the thing. On paper, none of them are there yet. They may ALL be superstars this time next year. I doubt it, but it’s on the board. But as it stands now, they are a bunch of young unproven guys and an assortment of lotto ticket or possibly washed vets. 
 

It’s fair to say nobody had the Packers as a great WR room in the last 2 years. But a lot of their picks started to blossom and now it looks better.

agreed- 

 

it’s all speculation at this point-  I think there’s enough talent - when mixed with Kincaid, Knox, Cook and Davis, to be a legit title contender come playoff.  It’s all on Joe Brady (and the luck of injuries) 

 

 

 
 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

So you think the WRs we started the 2017 season are better than this years?  Kelvin Benjamin wasn’t on the team-  

 

matthews- Zay jones- andre Holmes

 

we added deonte Thompson, who was our leading receiver mid season iirc.  Benjamin at the deadline-

 

 

That 2017 group they broke camp with was gross.

 

But this WR group they have now is bottom 3 in the NFL and I'm not sure even the 2017 season opener Bills WR corps ranked that low.

 

To put it in perspective.......Jordan Matthews had played 46 of 48 career games.......his 3 year average was 58 yards per game......which projects to 986 yards per season in a 17 game season.   

 

I hated his skillset but you were probably one of those shouting me down about it that summer. 

 

But regardless........the Bills have nothing anywhere close to 58 yards per game career now.

 

Curtis Samuel is WR1 and averaged a relatively meager 38 yards per game the last two years and missed most of 2021.

 

Zay Jones?  4th WR off the board.   Coleman?  8th.

 

So it's debatable and after they picked up Benjamin they had acquired a guy who was on a 1,000 yard type pace that season.

 

Keep in mind though,  that 2017 was a real low point for receiving talent around the NFL.

 

After two terrible WR drafts in 2015-2016 only 15 players total accumulated 1,000 yards receiving.

 

Most years recently before and since that the numbers have been in the low to high 20's each season.

 

From 2018 to 2024 it's been one tremendous WR class after the next.

 

The QB position is A LOT deeper too.  

 

So now you need A LOT more talent at the top of your WR corps to measure up.

 

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

That 2017 group they broke camp with was gross.

 

But this WR group they have now is bottom 3 in the NFL and I'm not sure even the 2017 season opener Bills WR corps ranked that low.

 

To put it in perspective.......Jordan Matthews had played 46 of 48 career games.......his 3 year average was 58 yards per game......which projects to 986 yards per season in a 17 game season.   

 

I hated his skillset but you were probably one of those shouting me down about it that summer. 

 

But regardless........the Bills have nothing anywhere close to 58 yards per game career now.

 

Curtis Samuel is WR1 and averaged a relatively meager 38 yards per game the last two years and missed most of 2021.

 

Zay Jones?  4th WR off the board.   Coleman?  8th.

 

So it's debatable and after they picked up Benjamin they had acquired a guy who was on a 1,000 yard type pace that season.

 

Keep in mind though,  that 2017 was a real low point for receiving talent around the NFL.

 

After two terrible WR drafts in 2015-2016 only 15 players total accumulated 1,000 yards receiving.

 

Most years recently before and since that the numbers have been in the low to high 20's each season.

 

From 2018 to 2024 it's been one tremendous WR class after the next.

 

The QB position is A LOT deeper too.  

 

So now you need A LOT more talent at the top of your WR corps to measure up.

 

Ok…..so which was worse? 2017 or 2024?

[BADOLBILZ]

17 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Ok…..so which was worse? 2017 or 2024?

 

I answered it.   It has to be measured relatively.   And it's close.

 

I'd say they were bottom 5 going into 2017 and are bottom 3 going into 2024.

 

Just feels better now because there is more talent at the WR position in general around the league now.  

 

There were some really awful WR corps around the NFL in 2017.   You probably wouldn't even recognize the top performing WR on the Bears and Browns.   Ricardo Louis lead the Browns in WR receiving yards.  Titans were truly awful as well.

 

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I answered it.   It has to be measured relatively.   And it's close.

 

I'd say they were bottom 5 going into 2017 and are bottom 3 going into 2024.

 

Just feels better now because there is more talent at the WR position in general around the league now.  

 

There were some really awful WR corps around the NFL in 2017.   You probably wouldn't even recognize the top performing WR on the Bears and Browns.   Ricardo Louis lead the Browns in WR receiving yards.  Titans were truly awful as well.

 

Too funny-  the 2017 and 24 wr units against each other.  We aren’t comparing  the units relative to the rest of the league.  
 

It doesn’t matter how they are ranked league wide- the WR units don’t actually play against each other.  They play against opposing defenses.  It’s  about having capable players for the QB to throw too.  Having guys that can make plays.  Or in 2017’s case, having guys incapable of making plays.  Or staying in the league for more than a season.
 

Example-  2035 and the league is comprised of Justin Jefferson clones.  Every team in the league has 6 Justin Jefferson clones except the Bills.  The Bills have 6 Brandon Aiyuk clones.  Because you “it has to be measured relatively”  the 2017 bills WRs might be better than the 2035 bills because the Bills WRs are the worst in the league while the 2017 teams was bottom 5.  

 

this is a ridiculous hill to stand on.  But I’m enjoying watching you sit there trying to play smart guy.  
 

move the goal posts or give us some other analogy of how the 17 WRs aren’t worse than the 24 WRs.  
 

hey @GoBills808 which WR do you think is better, 17 or 24?

[GoBills808]

16 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Too funny-  the 2017 and 24 wr units against each other.  We aren’t comparing  the units relative to the rest of the league.  
 

It doesn’t matter how they are ranked league wide- the WR units don’t actually play against each other.  They play against opposing defenses.  It’s  about having capable players for the QB to throw too.  Having guys that can make plays.  Or in 2017’s case, having guys incapable of making plays.  Or staying in the league for more than a season.
 

Example-  2035 and the league is comprised of Justin Jefferson clones.  Every team in the league has 6 Justin Jefferson clones except the Bills.  The Bills have 6 Brandon Aiyuk clones.  Because you “it has to be measured relatively”  the 2017 bills WRs might be better than the 2035 bills because the Bills WRs are the worst in the league while the 2017 teams was bottom 5.  

 

this is a ridiculous hill to stand on.  But I’m enjoying watching you sit there trying to play smart guy.  
 

move the goal posts or give us some other analogy of how the 17 WRs aren’t worse than the 24 WRs.  
 

hey @GoBills808 which WR do you think is better, 17 or 24?

I refuse to answer on the grounds that it's too depressing to consider

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I refuse to answer on the grounds that it's too depressing to consider

People are funny
 

 

 

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

People are funny
 

 

 

I mean why are you asking me lol

 

You know I'm not very enamored of this group...how they stack up vs another bad former collection doesn't really interest me tbh

 

 

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I knew Zay wasn't it and Benjamin was a bust by 2018.

 

How very percipient of you

 

It's a large step in talent and quite likely scheme complexity from East Carolina to the NFL, it's not unheard of for a player to take a year to adjust. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

How very percipient of you

 

It's a large step in talent and quite likely scheme complexity from East Carolina to the NFL, it's not unheard of for a player to take a year to adjust. 

 

And Zay did adjust. And he has had himself a reasonable career. That wasn't the question though. What we had seen in 2017 was pretty clear what his ceiling was - if he could sort his issues out he was going to be a solid enough possession receiver and chain mover. Even if he had fully sorted the hands that was the type of player he was and is (2018 was actually his 2nd best career year by yards and a career year by touchdowns). So it was obvious by year 2 he wasn't going to be a #1 receiver. When it is pretty apparent going into a season that a 2nd year player of that type is your best receiver (and Zay was our best receiver in 2018) you are in trouble. 

 

Our receiver room going into 2024 is certainly less than stellar. But going into 2018 it was a disaster.

[BarleyNY]

15 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Good points.  Maybe it’s not total cash spent but who you spend it on. 

FWIW I think the Bills had to pull back on spending this season and take some cap pain. The injuries to Von Millet and Tre White were brutal to this team. They were a big part of the issues with Diggs and led to the Bills trading him. That’s a really bad place to be for a team. So much cap space taken up by players who are no longer here or not performing close to their pay. Beane is navigating it as well as can be expected. I’ll be nervous until I see the team spend again though. 

[BarleyNY]

15 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

This is another fear of mine - the significant drop in spend.  I hope this is not a change in business philosophy related to Kim's departure and business change.  The addition of Laura (the business woman) over Jessica (the competitive athlete) makes me a little nervous.

 

And this can be related to the fear of no top tier WR.  Pegula may have had a say in going this route because of the nice bottom line in brings.  And if Pegula was involved in the decision he might give Beane/McD/Brady leniency in a less than stellar season.

 

Agreed. Plus they got their chunk of public funding for the new stadium. The recent spending and team success was certainly used to help the Pegulas that massive asset. None of that means that the Pegulas don’t care about winning a SB or that they won’t spend big on doing so. I’ll just be nervous until I see it happen. 

[eball]

16 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

This is another fear of mine - the significant drop in spend.  I hope this is not a change in business philosophy related to Kim's departure and business change.  The addition of Laura (the business woman) over Jessica (the competitive athlete) makes me a little nervous.

 

And this can be related to the fear of no top tier WR.  Pegula may have had a say in going this route because of the nice bottom line in brings.  And if Pegula was involved in the decision he might give Beane/McD/Brady leniency in a less than stellar season.

 

Good lord, some of you just like to worry.

 

[BarleyNY]

3 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Good lord, some of you just like to worry.

 

Not unfounded though. The reduction in the team’s cash spend this season didn’t have to be this severe. The Bills still could have structured many of the contracts more aggressively and made more room than they did. Had they done more of that then I wouldn’t be worried.

[NewEra]

10 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I mean why are you asking me lol

 

You know I'm not very enamored of this group...how they stack up vs another bad former collection doesn't really interest me tbh

 

 

i value your opinion of players?

[NewEra]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And Zay did adjust. And he has had himself a reasonable career. That wasn't the question though. What we had seen in 2017 was pretty clear what his ceiling was - if he could sort his issues out he was going to be a solid enough possession receiver and chain mover. Even if he had fully sorted the hands that was the type of player he was and is (2018 was actually his 2nd best career year by yards and a career year by touchdowns). So it was obvious by year 2 he wasn't going to be a #1 receiver. When it is pretty apparent going into a season that a 2nd year player of that type is your best receiver (and Zay was our best receiver in 2018) you are in trouble. 

 

Our receiver room going into 2024 is certainly less than stellar. But going into 2018 it was a disaster.

So you think 2024 is better than 2017 and 2018?   Do you even think it’s debatable?