I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Sierra Foothills]

23 minutes ago, NewEra said:

One thing I never see anyone talking about is that it takes time for Josh (and Brady) to develop chemistry with a completely new we unit.  keon has also missed 4 games after coming on strong and into his own.  Samuel’s injury clearly hampered his production and chemistry with Josh. Shakir’s injury clearly hampered our offense for 3 games.  Josh has clearly missed a wide open Mack Hollins on huge plays that, if he would’ve connected, we would be sitting at 1 loss.  

 

8 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

The following positions (made by all of you) have validity:

• The Bills returned only one receiver who had caught passes from Josh.
• The Bills had many new WRs that had never caught passes from Josh.
• It's true that Joe Hines-Brady would employ schemes and philosophies differentiating the offense from the one he inherited last year.
• It's true that the above process would take some time.
• Because of the above, there was legitimate and justifiable concern from media/fans about the WR corps before the season began.
• It's possible/likely that the team shared these concerns but wanted to see how things played out.
• It's true that an offense has more weapons (RBs, TEs) than simply the WR corps and that this was part of the team's math.
• It's possible/likely that early on, the team identified Amari Cooper as a target in case a transfusion was needed.
• It appears the Bills have changed their offensive philosophy to feature bigger, more physical (bad weather) wide receivers.
• It's true that since the beginning of his term, McDermott has wanted to balance the offense and improve our run game and O-line play.
• It's true that this offense was going to improve over the course of the season, with or without Amari Cooper.
• It's difficult (if not impossible) to quantify how much the offense has improved due to Amari Cooper.
• It's inarguable that they are a better offense because of the addition of Amari Cooper.

So all of you stupid ***** are right.

 

 

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

 

Of course you did!!  

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Nope, but it’s cute you’re trying to put words in my mouth per uge.

 

I supported the trade before it happened, when it happened, and after it happened.  Doesn’t change his factual production though.

Interesting take.

 

why do you still support the trade despite his “factual production?”

[Einstein's Dog]

3 hours ago, DCofNC said:

Obviously it was an audible, but also done too late in the game.  Even WITH Diggs they needed 2 more outside guys and did nothing.  This was a case of either gross incompetence or relying on hope as a strategy, it blew up and cost them a 3rd round pick for a half year player.  It’s piss more asset management, no matter how you want to shape it.

Wow, this statement has so much I disagree with:

 

Too late in the game?  We still have another third of the season to go.   Cooper should be totally integrated by the playoffs.

Even with Diggs you think we needed 2 more outside guys?  What?  We needed to replace G Davis which they did with Coleman.

Gross incompetence?  How has it blown up?  The Bills are sitting at 11-3, with a wrapped up home playoff spot.

"Piss more asset management"?  They got Cooper for pennies on the dollar.  Upstream it was called "really lucky".

 

With consideration to all the above bizarre takes it's hard for me to give much credence to your "Obviously it was an audible".

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't want to be right on this fwiw

 

but I still can't help but see how much of the offense relies on Allen doing things off schedule and it's a ton. Everybody can see it at this point. It's going to probably get him the MVP and it's fun to watch the rest of the league get treated like junior varsity but deep down I don't believe it enough to win championships. and again I truly hope I am wrong on this. I really do. But w/out a concerted effort to get Cooper and Samuel more involved I can see us getting clamped in the playoffs when you need guys w talent to play above scheme and I am not convinced we have enough of that except at QB.

 

 

Yeah, ultimately/eventually Allen needs to be able to live in the pocket.   What they have right now is good enough to be incredible so long as he can still evade every pass rusher, make incredible strong armed throws on the run and take massive hits and bounce back up.   Or gash a defense running the ball.   The sooner he doesn't have to do that for the offense to put up 30 points, the better.   Love to get back to the trajectory he was on in 2020 when he completed nearly 70% of throws.

[Richard Noggin]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah, ultimately/eventually Allen needs to be able to live in the pocket.   What they have right now is good enough to be incredible so long as he can still evade every pass rusher, make incredible strong armed throws on the run and take massive hits and bounce back up.   Or gash a defense running the ball.   The sooner he doesn't have to do that for the offense to put up 30 points, the better.   Love to get back to the trajectory he was on in 2020 when he completed nearly 70% of throws.

 

Agreed at least in part. However, 2020 saw a serious reduction in offensive holding penalties and a significant jump in passing productivity. I immediately think of that pass over Fred Warner to Gabe Davis on a play action, deep slant/skinny post/dig up the left hash marks. That immaculate pocket and Allen's calm feet were a signature of that season. Many QBs seemed to enjoy similar advantageous working conditions. I think the numbers overall bear this out? (Could be wrong)

[NewEra]

8 hours ago, FireChans said:

Interesting take.

 

why do you still support the trade despite his “factual production?”

Good grief

7 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Wow, this statement has so much I disagree with:

 

Too late in the game?  We still have another third of the season to go.   Cooper should be totally integrated by the playoffs.

Even with Diggs you think we needed 2 more outside guys?  What?  We needed to replace G Davis which they did with Coleman.

Gross incompetence?  How has it blown up?  The Bills are sitting at 11-3, with a wrapped up home playoff spot.

"Piss more asset management"?  They got Cooper for pennies on the dollar.  Upstream it was called "really lucky".

 

With consideration to all the above bizarre takes it's hard for me to give much credence to your "Obviously it was an audible".

The source.  Consider the source.  

[NewEra]

10 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

2023 Diggs & Davis combined per game: 14 targets 9 receptions 113.5 yards per game & .88 Tds

 

2024 Hollins & Coleman combined per game: 6.7 targets 4 receptions 69 yards per game & .66 TDs 

 

If you prefer 2024 Hollins/Coleman to 2023 Diggs/Davis I can no longer engage in this conversation as if you were objective on the subject. Diggs and Davis regressed in 2023. They are light years ahead of those 2 in 2024. 

Diggs and Davis are better WRs-  but they also made Josh Allen worse. For THIS team-  I’ll take Holllins and Coleman too. Both can run block.  Both are team players.  Both are capable players.  
 

 

I’d take Hollins over Davis every day of the week and Keon has a very nice upside, especially with a QB like 17

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Diggs and Davis are better WRs-  but they also made Josh Allen worse. For THIS team-  I’ll take Holllins and Coleman too. Both can run block.  Both are team players.  Both are capable players.  
 

 

I’d take Hollins over Davis every day of the week and Keon has a very nice upside, especially with a QB like 17

Lol, what are we doing here? 😂 They weren’t “better for Josh Allen.” They are playing their roles fine. Let’s not do this. That’s not a rational opinion. If you were to just make it about Gabe an argument could be made (certainly for Coleman). In a down year, Diggs was by 4,000 miles the best receiver of that group regardless of attitude/personality.

[machine gun kelly]

10 hours ago, FireChans said:

Interesting take.

 

why do you still support the trade despite his “factual production?”

AD, I’m with you.  Some weeks Cooper’s value like in the Rams game is 14 targets for positive play as we needed an outside threat, and some weeks like Detroit we need to hit the middle and 12 personnel, but defenses are planning to stop him on the outside.

 

The best part of this offense now is we can hit you from the middle, up the gut, and from the outside.

 

Inside

 

Kinkaid, Knox, and Shakir

 

Up the gut

 

Cook, Davis, and Johnson

 

Outside

 

Cooper, and Coleman

 

This is the most complete offense of the McBeane era.

[Mikey152]

12 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I said that the WRs were bottom 3 in the NFl. I don’t necessarily believe that was wrong pre-Amari. In fact, the numbers would probably support it from those 8 games. The numbers in the 6 games with him vs. the 8 games without him are way different. Allen may throw for 4,000 yards without a receiver over 1,000 yards. Shakir is their top producer and he’s 29th in yards. Keon is next and he’s 76th. Keep in mind that is the production with the MVP at QB, arguably the top OC in football, a really good running game and a top 5 OL. 

This, right here, is the hypocrisy I am talking about.

 

Amari gets TONS of credit for the offenses performance the last 8 weeks ( despite only playing in 6 games). His INDIVIDUAL PRODUCTION (snaps, targets, catches, yards, TDs) doesnt signal #1 receiver on this team, and they sure don’t signal # 1 we in the NFL. 
 

But, you know…he’s Amari Cooper. Hes making a huge difference you just can’t see it in the numbers. He dictates coverage, even when he is on the sideline he is so good. 
 

the rest of the receivers, though?  Still trash. I mean, look at their numbers! They’re better than Amaris, sure, but that’s only because the whole team covers Cooper when he is on the field and they run the ball when he isn’t (and we all know WR have nothing to do with running the football).

 

Amari Cooper is a good player. I am glad he is on the Bills..but this need to be right in your negativity is compromising your common sense. 

 

Regarding your charts from earlier…the offense also got better with Coleman and Kincaid out of the lineup. Do they make us worse? Or maybe, just maybe…it’s more complicated than a single variable.

 

[Mr. WEO]

14 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Because having a true WR1 changes how a defense has to deploy its players.

 

Think of the defense the Bills used to stymie Lamar Jackson from 2020-2022.   A key component of that was challenging Lamar to throw outside the numbers and downfield and cheating personnel to the middle of the field to take away his favorite throws.   That was because it was presumed Jackson wouldn't make many of those throws outside and deep.  

 

When Hollins and MVS were the boundary options that's exactly what defense's learned was the vulnerability with Josh Allen in 2024.   When Cooper came the windows opened up for the guys who run the majority of their route yardage over the middle of the field.   And despite the windows getting tighter outside.......now the plays outside the numbers are being made when they are attempted instead of falling incomplete to Hollins or MVS and people debating whose fault it was.   

 

As for Cooper only playing 47% of the snaps.........he doesn't need to play a set % of the snaps to make the offense good enough to stay on the field and keep moving the ball.   If you are better on 1 play every 3 or 4 downs that can be the difference between a long TD drive or a 3 and out punt.    That's why they call players like Cooper "difference makers".   

 

"true WR1"?  who is that?

 

He wasn't making that difference in Cleveland--their passing game got better after he was gone.  You make it sound as if he is doubled on every play he's on the field for.  That's clearly not the case.   They are 7-2 without him. 

 

I think he was a good pickup as a WR3/4.  He's made a few great catches.  But the days of Defenses planning around Cooper are long over.  

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Mr. WEO

[BillsVet]

52 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

This, right here, is the hypocrisy I am talking about.

 

Amari gets TONS of credit for the offenses performance the last 8 weeks ( despite only playing in 6 games). His INDIVIDUAL PRODUCTION (snaps, targets, catches, yards, TDs) doesnt signal #1 receiver on this team, and they sure don’t signal # 1 we in the NFL. 
 

But, you know…he’s Amari Cooper. Hes making a huge difference you just can’t see it in the numbers. He dictates coverage, even when he is on the sideline he is so good. 
 

the rest of the receivers, though?  Still trash. I mean, look at their numbers! They’re better than Amaris, sure, but that’s only because the whole team covers Cooper when he is on the field and they run the ball when he isn’t (and we all know WR have nothing to do with running the football).

 

Amari Cooper is a good player. I am glad he is on the Bills..but this need to be right in your negativity is compromising your common sense. 

 

Regarding your charts from earlier…the offense also got better with Coleman and Kincaid out of the lineup. Do they make us worse? Or maybe, just maybe…it’s more complicated than a single variable.

 

 

Few posters go full hyperbole so quickly when someone disagrees with them like you do.  Dude, remove the bunched panties from your fourth point of contact and don't take it this personally.      

[Doc]

23 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

yes these guys appear to be:

 

 

 

 

lets add this one in there too @NewEra

 

Not me.  I love the addition of Cooper.  Premier WR talent with the added bonus of zero drama.

 

57 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

"true WR1"?  who is that?

 

He wasn't making that difference in Cleveland--their passing game got better after he was gone.  You make it sound as if he is doubled on every play he's on the field for.  That's clearly not the case.   They are 7-12 without him. 

 

I think he was a good pickup as a WR3/4.  He's made a few great catches.  But the days of Defenses planning around Cooper are long over. 

 

Completely wrong.  And the Browns got better in the passing game because right after the Browns traded him they (finally) benched Watson and went with Winston.

[Kelly to Allen]

It's so infuriating that that we didn't have the big targets like a Keon Coleman or Mack Hollins in the playoffs last year. 

 

Having two guys like that especially Coleman can completely change a game. 

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Kelly to Allen

[Mr. WEO]

10 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Not me.  I love the addition of Cooper.  Premier WR talent with the added bonus of zero drama.

 

 

Completely wrong.  And the Browns got better in the passing game because right after the Browns traded him they (finally) benched Watson and went with Winston.

 

Watson is awful, true.  But so is Winston. 

 

What is "completely wrong"?  That Cooper isn't a WR1?  That he isn't being doubled much?  That they are 7-2 without him?  That teams aren't gameplanning around an aging seldom used WR3/4?

[Mikey152]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

Few posters go full hyperbole so quickly when someone disagrees with them like you do.  Dude, remove the bunched panties from your fourth point of contact and don't take it this personally.      

This thread is like 200 pages long…subtle debate died long ago. 
 

but yes, the hyperbole was strong in that post and intentional. 
 

For me, this isn’t about being right or wrong…I couldn’t care less. It’s the negativity. As a wise poster once messages me "I'm not at all convinced that everything is going to work out well, but on the other hand, there's nothing wrong in thinking it should."

 

The reality is, this thread was never really about WR. It’s about trusting (or not trusting) the people at one bills drive. My position is and always will be that one bills drive has a plan and it COULD work, not that it WILL. For whatever reason, there is a sizable number of posters on this message board that just cannot get on that train. I get they are frustrated, but at what point do you take a look in the mirror and realize you’re turning against your own team and fellow fans due to your anger? 

Edited 52 minutes ago by Mikey152

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Lol, what are we doing here? 😂 They weren’t “better for Josh Allen.” They are playing their roles fine. Let’s not do this. That’s not a rational opinion. If you were to just make it about Gabe an argument could be made (certainly for Coleman). In a down year, Diggs was by 4,000 miles the best receiver of that group regardless of attitude/personality.

Yes, diggs was the best WR of them all.  But you can’t say that Josh isn’t better without him now. He was forcing diggs the ball and made worse decisions when Diggs was playing.  Josh clearly felt the pressure to get him the ball.  Everyone has been saying this all season.  Putting up more yards and catches doesn’t mean much when he’s seeing 150 targets.  Shakir was a much more efficient player than Diggs was last year and our offense had more success when we stopped making Diggs the focal point-  even while the Bills played many of those games in the cold/wind/snow.  While Diggs was the focal point with great weather.  Weather does affect the pass game. 
 

Prior to acquiring Cooper-  the talk around the league was that Josh is better than ever.  They weren’t wrong. The Baltimore happened and Shakir got hurt and Houston happened without Shakir and Josh playing terribly (and missing terribly).  The narrative shifted a bit then, but that was still only a month or so into learning how to play with all these new targets.  Now they’ve all adjusted and have gotten acclimated (plus the acquisition of cooper) and Josh is playing the QB position better than anyone ever.  
 

It’s possible for Diggs to be better than these guys AND Josh also be better without him.  It’s not just possible…. It’s happened 

[FireChans]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

Good grief

I mean, saying his production is bad and has 3 games of under 10 yards and still supporting the trade is kinda interesting.

 

It’s almost like he does things outside of the stat sheet to open up the offense.

 

Puts him in a tough spot to admit that though. Otherwise, it would be a wasted 3rd round pick for bad production, right?

Edited 52 minutes ago by FireChans

[Mikey152]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

I mean, saying his production is bad and has 3 games of under 10 yards and still supporting the trade is kinda interesting.

 

It’s almost like he does things outside of the stat sheet to open up the offense.

 

Puts him in a tough spot to admit that though. Otherwise, it would be a wasted 3rd round pick for bad production, right?

Nobody is saying it isn’t true…just maybe a bit exaggerated, while in turn minimizing similar indirect contributions of other players.

 

It starts to feel like a narrative.

 

cooper cost a third round pick and his contract is dirt cheap. It was a great deal even if he is just a role player, especially if it is a role that was sorely needed. Where you are getting push back is when you try and spin it as an indictment against the team and the WR situation heading into the season, where they didn’t have a number 1 or any good receivers, because Cooper isn’t fitting your own criteria here in Buffalo. It feels hypocritical.

 

but I get it…it isn’t really about WR at all. It’s about not trusting this team to get it done because they always fail.