I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[GoBills808]

11 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Headline in article in Buffalo News:

 

Bills notebook: Amari Cooper 'waiting (his) whole life to be on a team like this'

 

Couple quotes from article:

 

“It’s absolutely amazing,” Cooper told The Buffalo News. “Honestly, I’ve been waiting my whole life to be on a team like this.”

 

“Obviously, I’m a receiver,” Cooper said. “Every receiver wants the ball. But, I mean, I’m in Year 10. And so, what’s most important to me is winning. And so, I think we definitely have the formula.

 

“So, I think it’s actually kind of cool, like going from 14 targets to zero targets, and we win, we beat a great team, actually a potential matchup down the road"

 

“But we are part of a team to where guys go down, and the offense is still putting up 40, 50 points. That’s truly a team that has a chance.”

 

I'm sure Diggs would say the same!

🤙🤙Thanks for this

 

What a great quote

[GoBills808]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea they are, without question, a better offense with Coop than without him. He makes teams defend the entire field against us. It is that simple. 

I don't know why or how this is even debatable

 

Getting Cooper was massive

 

this was us pre Cooper

 

and this is us post Cooper lol

[Mikey152]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't know why or how this is even debatable

 

Getting Cooper was massive

 

this was us pre Cooper

 

and this is us post Cooper lol

Correlation does not equal causation....

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Mikey152 said:

Correlation does not equal causation....

Marlon Humphrey correlated with a primetime 21 point loss when he got to shadow Shakir instead of a boundary WR.

[Mikey152]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Marlon Humphrey correlated with a primetime 21 point loss when he got to shadow Shakir instead of a boundary WR.

Who would he shadow on the 50%+ snaps where Cooper wasn't on the field last week?

 

Against Detroit Cooper had the 4th most snaps AT RECEIVER and zero targets, but he is the reason we put up 48?  Really?

 

Amari Cooper is clearly a better WR than the guy he replaced (MVS), but to act like he was the key to unlocking this offense is just silly. Honestly, this offense looked fantastic when Kincaid and Coleman were out and Knox/Anderson were getting more snaps...perhaps we should cut them.

 

Amari Cooper on last years team instead of Diggs, and this offense isn't this good. It's the line, it's the RBs, its the new WR all coming together. Amari isn't the only reason they have gotten better as the season has gone on, and its completely disingenuous to suggest as much

[NewEra]

19 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't know why or how this is even debatable

 

Getting Cooper was massive

 

this was us pre Cooper

 

and this is us post Cooper lol

Is anyone debating this though?

2 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Who would he shadow on the 50%+ snaps where Cooper wasn't on the field last week?

 

Against Detroit Cooper had the 4th most snaps AT RECEIVER and zero targets, but he is the reason we put up 48?  Really?

 

Amari Cooper is clearly a better WR than the guy he replaced (MVS), but to act like he was the key to unlocking this offense is just silly. Honestly, this offense looked fantastic when Kincaid and Coleman were out and Knox/Anderson were getting more snaps...perhaps we should cut them.

 

Amari Cooper on last years team instead of Diggs, and this offense isn't this good. It's the line, it's the RBs, it’s the new WR all coming together. Amari isn't the only reason they have gotten better as the season has gone on, and its completely disingenuous to suggest as much

Cooper forces the defenses to put a greater emphasis on defending the boundaries, which opens up things in the middle of the field and the RBs.  There’s not doubt he majors us better and has helped unlock our offense.  I don’t think he’s the only reason that our offense is so great, but the sum of the parts are more effective with him on the field.  

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Is anyone debating this though?

Cooper forces the defenses to put a greater emphasis on defending the boundaries, which opens up things in the middle of the field and the RBs.  There’s not doubt he majors us better and has helped unlock our offense.  I don’t think he’s the only reason that our offense is so great, but the sum of the parts are more effective with him on the field.  

 

yes these guys appear to be:

 

On 12/17/2024 at 4:34 AM, Doc said:

So Cooper didn't have a catch against the Lions.  Did it help open things up for others?  Or was his addition meaningless?

 

On 12/17/2024 at 3:32 AM, Avisan said:

We traded for, Cooper, sure.  He replaced MVS and has been on the field for what, 1/3 of our games this season?  And an active factor in what, two games?  We could have never made the trade and we would still be a top offense on a team waltzing into the 2-seed.

 

20 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

But...But...But...they traded mid season for a "savior" WR who is averaging 38 yards per game and has 3 games of 0 yards, 5, yards, and 10 yards in his 6 games here...some of which Coleman was out hurt and still no production from him.  That somehow validates everything else they were wrong about and they are trying to take victory laps still lol.

 

 

lets add this one in there too @NewEra

 

7 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Who would he shadow on the 50%+ snaps where Cooper wasn't on the field last week?

 

Against Detroit Cooper had the 4th most snaps AT RECEIVER and zero targets, but he is the reason we put up 48?  Really?

 

Amari Cooper is clearly a better WR than the guy he replaced (MVS), but to act like he was the key to unlocking this offense is just silly. Honestly, this offense looked fantastic when Kincaid and Coleman were out and Knox/Anderson were getting more snaps...perhaps we should cut them.

 

Amari Cooper on last years team instead of Diggs, and this offense isn't this good. It's the line, it's the RBs, its the new WR all coming together. Amari isn't the only reason they have gotten better as the season has gone on, and its completely disingenuous to suggest as much

 

[FireChans]

27 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Who would he shadow on the 50%+ snaps where Cooper wasn't on the field last week?

 

Against Detroit Cooper had the 4th most snaps AT RECEIVER and zero targets, but he is the reason we put up 48?  Really?

 

Amari Cooper is clearly a better WR than the guy he replaced (MVS), but to act like he was the key to unlocking this offense is just silly. Honestly, this offense looked fantastic when Kincaid and Coleman were out and Knox/Anderson were getting more snaps...perhaps we should cut them.

 

Amari Cooper on last years team instead of Diggs, and this offense isn't this good. It's the line, it's the RBs, its the new WR all coming together. Amari isn't the only reason they have gotten better as the season has gone on, and its completely disingenuous to suggest as much

You, a post ago, "correlation doesn't equal causation."

 

You, now, "a lack of correlation equals a lack of causation."

 

Back to stats 101, my friend.

21 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

He said a lot of things that were wrong (including insisting Samuel would be a our #1 WR).  Bottom line...none of the doom and gloom projected all offseason around here was accurate.

 

Meanwhile, people like us had more optimistic views of the changes, Brady inserting his full system, the new everybody eats philosophy, liked the Coleman pick, thought Hollins would have a role here, and the addition by subtraction with Diggs and Davis gone kept insisting that the offense not only wouldn't fall off, but could be better and be Josh Allens best season of his career.  All of which was much more accurate than any of the doom and gloom negative narratives that were being shoved down everyones throats about Coleman, Allen, the talent, firing Beane, the receivers, the OL, Brady, not winning the division, missing the playoffs, etc.  

 

But...But...But...they traded mid season for a "savior" WR who is averaging 38 yards per game and has 3 games of 0 yards, 5, yards, and 10 yards in his 6 games here...some of which Coleman was out hurt and still no production from him.  That somehow validates everything else they were wrong about and they are trying to take victory laps still lol.

 

Nobody got everything right on either side of this discussion, especially given this discussion went often past just the "receivers" plenty of times.  But those who felt more optimistic about this season, the offense, etc got a lot more right than wrong compared to those who spent the offseason in negativeville and melt down mode.  Some of the people trying dance about this topic wanted Dorsey over Brady, Beane fired, Hollins cut, any other WR other than Coleman, thought Shakir would decline, etc. 

 

But I do find those attempting to wash themselves in the spin cycle entertaining lol

 

 

Saying nobody got it right when the GM made a desperate trade for a WR in October is very funny to me.

[Mikey152]

37 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

yes these guys appear to be:

 

 

 

 

lets add this one in there too @NewEra

 

 

Typical...

 

Changing the argument to suit your needs is par for the course.  Let me state this plainly for you before I move on from this thread for good.

 

The point of this thread was that the WR room, despite the drop in name recognition, would be better than last year. That the offense would play better.

 

The people who agreed believed that the more diverse skill set and selfless, team oriented mentality would outweigh the production gap. The non-believers were worried that without a true #1 (or two), the offense would struggle to move the football and be worse than last year.

 

The graphs above compare the Bills with and without Amari Cooper...like it is some shock that adding a pro bowl WR made the offense better. But where is the comparison of the pre-Cooper Bills to last year?  That first graph wasn't best in the league, but it sure wasn't the worst, either...I bet it was better than last season.

 

Curtis Samuel was a flop for whatever reason. Coleman had growing pains then an injury. Amari Cooper fixes that. But it doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't trade Hollins and Coleman for a healthy Diggs and Davis right now. That was the point of this thread...The WR group got better, even if it isn't "better". And that is true. It has been true all season. They are a better team with this roster.

 

 

15 minutes ago, FireChans said:

You, a post ago, "correlation doesn't equal causation."

 

You, now, "a lack of correlation equals a lack of causation."

 

Back to stats 101, my friend.

Saying nobody got it right when the GM made a desperate trade for a WR in October is very funny to me.

That trade was about Samuel falling off a cliff. Even the haters have been surprised by that.

 

So you're claiming non-linear correlation? I find this funny, because this runs counter to the whole #1 WR theory, but whatever. 

Edited Friday at 04:33 PM by Mikey152

[JerseyBills]

6 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Typical...

 

Changing the argument to suit your needs is par for the course.  Let me state this plainly for you before I move on from this thread for good.

 

The point of this thread was that the WR room, despite the drop in name recognition, would be better than last year. That the offense would play better.

 

The people who agreed believed that the more diverse skill set and selfless, team oriented mentality would outweigh the production gap. The non-believers were worried that without a true #1 (or two), the offense would struggle to move the football and be worse than last year.

 

The graphs above compare the Bills with and without Amari Cooper...like it is some shock that adding a pro bowl WR made the offense better. But where is the comparison of the pre-Cooper Bills to last year?  That first graph wasn't best in the league, but it sure wasn't the worst, either...I bet it was better than last season.

 

Curtis Samuel was a flop for whatever reason. Coleman had growing pains then an injury. Amari Cooper fixes that. But it doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't trade Hollins and Coleman for a healthy Diggs and Davis right now. That was the point of this thread...The WR group got better, even if it isn't "better". And that is true. It has been true all season. They are a better team with this roster.

 

 

That trade was about Samuel falling off a cliff. Even the haters have been surprised by that.

Also included the O as a whole being better but ya, look beyond Diggs, Davis, Shakir last year and we were horrendous at WR, with Sherfield,  Harty and in the KC game , Isabella..

 

We now have 5 guys on the roster that are legit WRs , I know Samuel is struggling but he also causes headaches with his use all over the field and at the very least, defenses have to account for him.

 

People are praising Cooper, with lackluster performances stat wise, he still demands attention and opens it up for other guys, same should be said about Samuel, to a lesser extent 

[BADOLBILZ]

26 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Is anyone debating this though?

Cooper forces the defenses to put a greater emphasis on defending the boundaries, which opens up things in the middle of the field and the RBs.  There’s not doubt he majors us better and has helped unlock our offense.  I don’t think he’s the only reason that our offense is so great, but the sum of the parts are more effective with him on the field.  

 

 

The key addition doesn't have to be the "only reason".

 

Quality at premium positions = difference makers.

 

If you throw Myles Garrett or Dexter Lawrence onto the Bills DL the synergy created would have TSW'ers wringing their hands about not having AJ Epenesa and Daquan Jones signed for a longer term.

 

Go back and look at posts from the offseason and you will see that it was assumed that any offense with a prime Josh Allen was going to be a top 10 offense.  

 

The goal here was never to be "top 10".    It's to be #1.   Especially for those of us who don't trust a Bills defense in the playoffs.

 

If the Bills had Amari Cooper from day 1 they would probably be the #1 seed right now.

 

And might be challenging for the highest points per game scored in a season.   It's always been my contention that it could and should happen during Josh Allen's prime.  A 38 ppg season.

 

 

[JP51]

2 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Also included the O as a whole being better but ya, look beyond Diggs, Davis, Shakir last year and we were horrendous at WR, with Sherfield,  Harty and in the KC game , Isabella..

 

We now have 5 guys on the roster that are legit WRs , I know Samuel is struggling but he also causes headaches with his use all over the field and at the very least, defenses have to account for him.

 

People are praising Cooper, with lackluster performances stat wise, he still demands attention and opens it up for other guys, same should be said about Samuel, to a lesser extent 

I think a measure of a great player is do you make those around you better... my take on Coop is that he has... for whatever reason.... he may not beat double teams as much... but single cover him and there is a good shot you might pay.  If he is drawing a DT away from Shakir and pushing defenders to a boundary in my estimation that opens up the field... that said... we could sure use some consistent production and I dont know if that is on Brady to scheme him better... or something from him... just not sure but in the end it is my believe this offense is better with Coop than without. 

[Magox]

29 minutes ago, FireChans said:

You, a post ago, "correlation doesn't equal causation."

 

You, now, "a lack of correlation equals a lack of causation."

 

Back to stats 101, my friend.

Saying nobody got it right when the GM made a desperate trade for a WR in October is very funny to me.

“Desperate”

 

[BADOLBILZ]

17 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

 

The WR group got better, even if it isn't "better". And that is true. It has been true all season. 

 

 

Might be the most ridiculous, nonsensical string of sentences written on TSW in 2024.   

 

 

11 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

People are praising Cooper, with lackluster performances stat wise, he still demands attention and opens it up for other guys, same should be said about Samuel, to a lesser extent 

 

No,  it shouldn't be said in that context.   Not even to a lesser extent.   Samuel made some plays when Coleman was out and he got more opportunity.  But he was part of the redundancy that plagued the Bills group of weapons to start the season.   All of the better players needed space in the middle of the field to succeed.   But there was nobody on the outside to open up the field for them.   

 

[Sierra Foothills]

Another topic where there's too much discussion from the poles and not enough consensus... (the truth in the middle).

 

The following positions (made by all of you) have validity:

• The Bills returned only one receiver who had caught passes from Josh.
• The Bills had many new WRs that had never caught passes from Josh.
• Because of the above, there was legitimate and justifiable concern from media/fans about the WR corps before the season began.
• It's possible/likely that the team shared these concerns but wanted to see how things played out.
• It's true that an offense has more weapons (RBs, TEs) than simply the WR corps and that this was part of the team's math.
• It's possible/likely that early on, the team identified Amari Cooper as a target in case a transfusion was needed.
• It's true that Joe Hines-Brady would employ schemes and philosophies differentiating the offense from the one he inherited last year.
• It's true that the above process would take some time.
• It appears the Bills have changed their offensive philosophy to feature bigger, more physical (bad weather) wide receivers.
• It's true that since the beginning of his term, McDermott has wanted to balance the offense and improve our run game and O-line play.
• It's true that this offense was going to improve over the course of the season, with or without Amari Cooper.
• It's difficult (if not impossible) to quantify how much the offense has improved due to Amari Cooper.
• It's inarguable that they are a better offense because of the addition of Amari Cooper.

So all of you stupid ***** are right.

 

[FireChans]

14 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Typical...

 

Changing the argument to suit your needs is par for the course.  Let me state this plainly for you before I move on from this thread for good.

 

The point of this thread was that the WR room, despite the drop in name recognition, would be better than last year. That the offense would play better.

 

The people who agreed believed that the more diverse skill set and selfless, team oriented mentality would outweigh the production gap. The non-believers were worried that without a true #1 (or two), the offense would struggle to move the football and be worse than last year.

 

The graphs above compare the Bills with and without Amari Cooper...like it is some shock that adding a pro bowl WR made the offense better. But where is the comparison of the pre-Cooper Bills to last year?  That first graph wasn't best in the league, but it sure wasn't the worst, either...I bet it was better than last season.

 

Curtis Samuel was a flop for whatever reason. Coleman had growing pains then an injury. Amari Cooper fixes that. But it doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't trade Hollins and Coleman for a healthy Diggs and Davis right now. That was the point of this thread...The WR group got better, even if it isn't "better". And that is true. It has been true all season. They are a better team with this roster.

 

 

That trade was about Samuel falling off a cliff. Even the haters have been surprised by that.

"Changing the argument?"

 

Dude, you have the most on record incorrect takes on this topic.  Literally. (and you aren't even the OP, and the OP has edited his OP to admit he was wrong and we needed the Cooper trade to fix it).

 

On 6/24/2024 at 12:11 PM, Mikey152 said:

Lets assume the Bills throw the ball ~550 times this year, and the target breakdown is something like:

 

Cook - 50

Shakir - 80

Samuel - 80

Coleman - 70

Knox - 50

Kincaid - 120

MVS - 50

Everyone else - 50

 

And everyone is around the same ypt as last season

 

Cook - 8.2 (410)

Shakir - 13.6 (led NFL among qualifiers) (1088)

Samuel - 6.7 (536)

Coleman - 9.2 (this was Gabe's) (644)

Knox - 5.2 (260)

Kincaid - 7.4 (888)

MVS - 7.5 (375)

Everyone else - 7 (350)

 

That puts Josh at 4,551 yards passing (8.2 ypa), which would be a career high on what is also his lowest attempts since 2019.  

 

Even if you see regression from Shakir and Coleman, that would likely be propped up by some positive regression from MVS (8.5 in 2022) Knox (8.0 in 2022) and Samuel (7.1 in 2022 and 8.8 in 2020 under Joe Brady)

 

The bolded "predictions" were all wrong. Completely and utterly.  The prediction of Josh throwing a career high on his lowest attempts since 2019?  Also incorrect, he's on pace for his lowest passing total since 2019.

 

On 6/25/2024 at 11:32 AM, Mikey152 said:

any combination of Claypool/MVS/Hamler/Hollins destroys last years bottom of the roster in the HWS department.

 

Also wrong.

 

On 6/26/2024 at 10:59 AM, Mikey152 said:

OK...give me one reason Curtis Samuel can't be Stef Diggs in this offense.

 

Also wrong.

 

On 6/26/2024 at 2:11 PM, Mikey152 said:

Curtis Samuel wins 75%+ of his snaps against man coverage EVERY season. He is one of the best man coverage separators in the league. You know what made Diggs Diggs prior to his mini-collapse?  He was one of the best man coverage separators in the league.

 

They are literally the same size and have practically the same skill set, only Samuel is even faster and better with the ball in his hands.

 

Just remember this thread after the season.

 

Also wrong.  Bolded for emphasis.

 

I'm only at page #20, can I stop now?

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Might be the most ridiculous, nonsensical string of sentences written on TSW in 2024.   

 

 

And this might be the biggest burn haha.

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

"Changing the argument?"

 

Dude, you have the most on record incorrect takes on this topic.  Literally. (and you aren't even the OP, and the OP has edited his OP to admit he was wrong and we needed the Cooper trade to fix it).

 

 

The bolded "predictions" were all wrong. Completely and utterly.  The prediction of Josh throwing a career high on his lowest attempts since 2019?  Also incorrect, he's on pace for his lowest passing total since 2019.

 

 

Also wrong.

 

 

Also wrong.

 

 

Also wrong.  Bolded for emphasis.

 

I'm only at page #20, can I stop now?

 

Oh he was wrong beyond wrong. All off season. At least he is here and hasn't run away. 

 

But he needs to own his wrongness. It was colossal. He would not hear any opposition to his "Samuel can be Diggs" argument.

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, Magox said:

Truth is, even if we hadn't had traded for Cooper this offense would be somewhere in the top 5 to 10 range.  With Cooper, they are a top 3 unit.   

 

After the initial set of games before teams had film on Brady's offense, we played 5 games without Cooper on the field. Baltimore, Houston, NYJ, Indy, and Miami. Here are the key offensive stats in those games and where they would rank in the league:

 

Yards per game - 322.2 (21st)

Points per game - 22.6 (14th)

1st downs per game - 19.4 (18th)

 

So basically an average to slightly below average in those games. Really Miami is the only one you can look at and say the offense performed at a top 5 level.

 

Sure adding Cooper isn't the only reason the offense has improved since then. The players have gotten more accustomed to Brady's scheme, the OL has gotten better, Allen himself has played the best football of his life since the NYJ game. But it's pretty clear that the catalyst of going from average offense to arguably the best offense in the league was adding a WR that can win outside. Cooper being on the field creates a snowball effect that helps the entire operation perform at an elite level. Just like adding Diggs back in 2020 allowed Brown and Beasley to be the best versions of themselves. You don't need Justin Jefferson but you need someone that can draw attention and win from all areas of the field.

[Mr. WEO]

17 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The key addition doesn't have to be the "only reason".

 

Quality at premium positions = difference makers.

 

If you throw Myles Garrett or Dexter Lawrence onto the Bills DL the synergy created would have TSW'ers wringing their hands about not having AJ Epenesa and Daquan Jones signed for a longer term.

 

Go back and look at posts from the offseason and you will see that it was assumed that any offense with a prime Josh Allen was going to be a top 10 offense.  

 

The goal here was never to be "top 10".    It's to be #1.   Especially for those of us who don't trust a Bills defense in the playoffs.

 

If the Bills had Amari Cooper from day 1 they would probably be the #1 seed right now.

 

And might be challenging for the highest points per game scored in a season.   It's always been my contention that it could and should happen during Josh Allen's prime.  A 38 ppg season.

 

 

 

Why would that be true?  He has 40 catches all year--12 games--481 yards....fewer in Buffalo than when he was Cleveland (where he was in on 89% of the snaps).  The Browns passing game took a large bump since he left--an anemic 142 ypg to 273 ypg.

 

It's hyperbole to say his 47% snaps and rare targets transformed the Offense.  Also, him being mainly a decoy would not put the Bills in the #1 seed were he here all season. 

 

 

[FireChans]

47 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

The point of this thread was that the WR room, despite the drop in name recognition, would be better than last year.

Hello @Mikey152,  I'd like to  introduce you to my friend @Mikey152. He's digging in on the "WR's got better this season" topic again.

 

On 7/22/2024 at 9:00 AM, Mikey152 said:

So, on it's surface...probably not an ideal WR room. Certainly not looking like a top one without a miracle, at any rate. At the very least, we will need some luck for it to be good and the chances of great are slim.

 

On 7/22/2024 at 9:32 AM, Mikey152 said:

I don't think upgrade this season was ever really realistic.

 

Also, one more incorrect take for good measure, bolded for emphasis.

 

On 7/23/2024 at 1:13 PM, Mikey152 said:

Mack Hollins was second on that team in catches and yards last season. He might not even see the field on this team. Pitts and Mooney had 1000 yard seasons in 2021, but haven't really come close since. Honestly, outside of Drake London, Pitts and Mooney (and I guess Rondale Moore from college)...I don't even really know anything about the other guys on their roster aside from the fact that they have like zero production and were late picks or undrafted.

 

And yet, they are #16 on the list. So clearly the #1's are getting a lot of weight and London is seen as an up and comer who just needs a QB. 

 

I'd call TE a wash, I definitely think Samuel is better than Mooney, and the Bills go way deeper. So it really comes down to Drake London, I guess.