I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[GoBills808]

15 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

In spite of us apparently having a good group WRs now I'd still like to see Beane take an outside speed WR in the first few founds of the next draft. Even if we sign Cooper to a short deal. Keep the pipeline going with high-ceiling young talent.

i would say we have a decent group, possibly above average is Coleman continues to improve and Cooper still has enough left

 

i wouldn't call it 'good' by any stretch

[Nephilim17]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

i would say we have a decent group, possibly above average is Coleman continues to improve and Cooper still has enough left

 

i wouldn't call it 'good' by any stretch

You could be right. I qualified it based on the last couple games where Cooper looked good in the first and Coleman is trending up and we know Shakir is very good as a slot guy. If Cooper disappears down the stretch this could be a very average group. But if Coleman continues this trajectory and Cooper is good for 50 or 60 yards most games I'd say it could be "good."

[NewEra]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

i would say we have a decent group, possibly above average is Coleman continues to improve and Cooper still has enough left

 

i wouldn't call it 'good' by any stretch

If cooper plays as he did just last season with Flacco, Keon even slightly improves and Shakir continues his current play I think we have a good WR unit.  Not great by any stretch. 
 

A proven X that excels down field as well as slants.  One of the better slot WRs in the league.  A physical mismatch that can hurt you after the catch and in jump ball situations. I don’t think you have to have an elite WR to have a “good” WR unit.

 

then add in the TE, RBs and OL and Josh/Brady have a nice group of playmakers all over the field.  Lots of pressure on McD to get it done this year.  I think we have the talent if the right guys stay healthy.  But that’s a big IF

2 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

You could be right. I qualified it based on the last couple games where Cooper looked good in the first and Coleman is trending up and we know Shakir is very good as a slot guy. If Cooper disappears down the stretch this could be a very average group. But if Coleman continues this trajectory and Cooper is good for 50 or 60 yards most games I'd say it could be "good."

Sure, if anyone disappears down the stretch the group won’t be considered good.  But why would we assume anyone would disappear?  Last we knew, Cooper was a very good WR.  Now he’s joining the best QB he’s ever played with and a solid group of playmakers around him. 

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

You could be right. I qualified it based on the last couple games where Cooper looked good in the first and Coleman is trending up and we know Shakir is very good as a slot guy. If Cooper disappears down the stretch this could be a very average group. But if Coleman continues this trajectory and Cooper is good for 50 or 60 yards most games I'd say it could be "good."

yes i agree

 

i wasn't projecting but it's possible maybe even probable that these guys gel and catch fire as the season/offense evolves

 

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

If cooper plays as he did just last season with Flacco, Keon even slightly improves and Shakir continues his current play I think we have a good WR unit.  Not great by any stretch. 
 

A proven X that excels down field as well as slants.  One of the better slot WRs in the league.  A physical mismatch that can hurt you after the catch and in jump ball situations. I don’t think you have to have an elite WR to have a “good” WR unit.

 

then add in the TE, RBs and OL and Josh/Brady have a nice group of playmakers all over the field.  Lots of pressure on McD to get it done this year.  I think we have the talent if the right guys stay healthy.  But that’s a big IF

i need to see cooper start getting the targets he deserves and the offense benefit from it before i can call them good

 

right now i agree they have the pieces

[Mark Vader]

21 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I couldn’t understand his fall.  I thought he was best served in the slot but he made a ton of plays on the outside so I thought he had a chance to play outside too.  Definitely not ideal but I think he could be an nfl WR outside, just not a very good one.  He had a very good release package that I thought would serve him well.

 

I was actually at the draft when he (and Benford and Araiza) we selected, sitting in the front thanks to @Jamie Nails coming out to the entrance and bringing me in ViP style.  Something I’ll always appreciate.  Sitting next to @Mark Vaderat the time of the Shakir selection, I remember telling him, THAT’S the best pick in the draft!!! I was super excited.  
 

I hadn’t heard of Benford and remember sighing at the pick 

Good times in Las Vegas.

 

I remember how thrilled you were about us selecting Shakir. As for Benford, well I don't think we watch a lot of Villanova football. Although I do remember how much Mel Kiper liked that pick.

[BADOLBILZ]

40 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I couldn’t understand his fall.  I thought he was best served in the slot but he made a ton of plays on the outside so I thought he had a chance to play outside too.  Definitely not ideal but I think he could be an nfl WR outside, just not a very good one.  He had a very good release package that I thought would serve him well.

 

 

 

I think the GENERAL consensus from draftniks was that Shakir was a day 2 pick but the people who thought Shakir could play outside are like the people who thought Cook was a WR playing RB.

 

Wrong.

 

At least thru 3 NFL seasons.

 

Fortunately they are really good at what they CAN do.  

 

Just so happens those things aren't valued as highly as the things they can't do.

 

Which is why there is a good chance that neither gets extended.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think the GENERAL consensus from draftniks was that Shakir was a day 2 pick but the people who thought Shakir could play outside are like the people who thought Cook was a WR playing RB.

 

Wrong.

 

At least thru 3 NFL seasons.

 

Fortunately they are really good at what they CAN do.  

 

Just so happens those things aren't valued as highly as the things they can't do.

 

Which is why there is a good chance that neither gets extended.

 

I'd be shocked if this regime is still here and they DON'T extend Shakir. I am going to agree with all the reasons you will give as to why they should be wary of it, but he is just their type of guy and I think they try and lock him up after this season if he continues at his current pace. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'd be shocked if this regime is still here and they DON'T extend Shakir. I am going to agree with all the reasons you will give as to why they should be wary of it, but he is just their type of guy and I think they try and lock him up after this season if he continues at his current pace. 

 

 

I agree that they will try to extend Shakir but I think he'll have to leave a lot of money on the table.   I doubt they offer him market rate like they would if he were a true X or Z.   If he's patient and stays healthy he could get a Christian Kirk deal after the 2025 season from a team that is trying to prop up a rookie contract QB.    I'm sure Jerry Jones spit out his coffee when he found out what Buffalo paid Beasley in 2019.   Teams can plan around guards and slot receivers being available in FA so they do.  

[GoBills808]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'd be shocked if this regime is still here and they DON'T extend Shakir. I am going to agree with all the reasons you will give as to why they should be wary of it, but he is just their type of guy and I think they try and lock him up after this season if he continues at his current pace. 

It will likely end up being a gabe Davis situation 

 

Shakir will get a lot of $$ elsewhere as he ahould

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I agree that they will try to extend Shakir but I think he'll have to leave a lot of money on the table.   I doubt they offer him market rate like they would if he were a true X or Z.   If he's patient and stays healthy he could get a Christian Kirk deal after the 2025 season from a team that is trying to prop up a rookie contract QB.    I'm sure Jerry Jones spit out his coffee when he found out what Buffalo paid Beasley in 2019.   Teams can plan around guards and slot receivers being available in FA so they do.  

 

You know I agree with the bolded. I just think he is this regime's type of guy and when they have had them in the past they have extended them. I'm not arguing they should extend Shakir. I think they will though. 

 

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It will likely end up being a gabe Davis situation 

 

Shakir will get a lot of $$ elsewhere as he ahould

 

Maybe. I think they will extend him personally. They love him. You only have to put Beane or McDermott in front of a mic and say his name and they just wax lyrical about his character, his team first approach, his toughness, his humility.... you name it they have praised it. 

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You know I agree with the bolded. I just think he is this regime's type of guy and when they have had them in the past they have extended them. I'm not arguing they should extend Shakir. I think they will though. 

 

 

Maybe. I think they will extend him personally. They love him. You only have to put Beane or McDermott in front of a mic and say his name and they just wax lyrical about his character, his team first approach, his toughness, his humility.... you name it they have praised it. 

Agreed-  He’s just their type of guy and Josh has the utmost respect for him.  I’m thinking they want to anti up 20-22M per.  That’s 8-10M less than Amon-Ra.  While he’s not as good, he may think he’s leaving too much on the table.  23-24M might be too rich for their tastes, rightly so……unless he shows more and continues to improve 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You know I agree with the bolded. I just think he is this regime's type of guy and when they have had them in the past they have extended them. I'm not arguing they should extend Shakir. I think they will though. 

 

 

Maybe. I think they will extend him personally. They love him. You only have to put Beane or McDermott in front of a mic and say his name and they just wax lyrical about his character, his team first approach, his toughness, his humility.... you name it they have praised it. 

at some point we have to get comfortable w getting good production out of guys we draft and them letting them walk...esp at offensive positions that have been proven to elevate otherwise mediocre players a la davis (the good decision) and knox (the wrong one)

 

you cant and you shouldnt try to re sign everyone

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

at some point we have to get comfortable w getting good production out of guys we draft and them letting them walk...esp at offensive positions that have been proven to elevate otherwise mediocre players a la davis (the good decision) and knox (the wrong one)

 

you cant and you shouldnt try to re sign everyone

 

Again, I'm not talking about should they. I am saying I think they will. 

[Einstein's Dog]

46 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

at some point we have to get comfortable w getting good production out of guys we draft and them letting them walk...esp at offensive positions that have been proven to elevate otherwise mediocre players a la davis (the good decision) and knox (the wrong one)

 

you cant and you shouldnt try to re sign everyone

You don't re-sign everyone, but you do re-sign a good home grown, young, developing, WR (Shakir) who is an integral part of your good team.  Now I don't think you go anywhere near the $24M spoken about above.  But you do give him market price a year early, a little more than G Davis money.

 

I hope the FO knows that WR's are not a dime a dozen.  Even slot WRs.  Looks at the problems that occurred in that area after Beasley left - McKenzie and Crowder were not the answer.  Give Josh weapons at the WR position, lets not backtrack and have to fill even more WR holes.  WR is an area where money should be spent.

 

As for not re-signing everyone, that unfortunately may have to be J Cook.

[HappyDays]

11 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

As for not re-signing everyone, that unfortunately may have to be J Cook.

 

Cook definitely not. Use him up for the next season and a half and let some other team make that mistake, and get a decent comp pick back.

 

Shakir I'm 50/50 on right now. I know slot WR is easier to fill but I'm usually in favor of paying players that create plays that go above and beyond the scheme. He's really a perfect mix of chain mover and playmaker which is not going to be easy to replace. And it's not like Knox where we'd be paying him for one outlier year of production. It's going on two seasons now where he is catching an absurd percentage of targets and finishing top 15 in yards per target.

 

Hopefully we draft a WR decently high next year so that if we need to move on from Shakir we have someone waiting in the wings. If he ends up getting $20M per year like people are predicting I'm not in favor of that at all.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

You don't re-sign everyone, but you do re-sign a good home grown, young, developing, WR (Shakir) who is an integral part of your good team.  Now I don't think you go anywhere near the $24M spoken about above.  But you do give him market price a year early, a little more than G Davis money.

 

I hope the FO knows that WR's are not a dime a dozen.  Even slot WRs.  Looks at the problems that occurred in that area after Beasley left - McKenzie and Crowder were not the answer.  Give Josh weapons at the WR position, lets not backtrack and have to fill even more WR holes.  WR is an area where money should be spent.

 

As for not re-signing everyone, that unfortunately may have to be J Cook.

 

 

Well,  I mean they didn't even really TRY to replace Beasley.  Throwing one of their 4ths at the problem in the upcoming draft would be a lot more than they did then.

 

And then there is the question of whether Kincaid needs more of those reps to reach HIS potential. The Bills can retain Kincaid thru the 2027 season(with a healthy 5th year bump) and TE's don't get money commensurate to comparably ranked WR.  So that's a factor in the Shakir decision as well.    Being able to run their offense thru Kelce has been a big cap saver for the Chiefs.

 

Also important to note that Shakir plays less than 60% of the snaps because having to use him in the slot isn't ideal for a lot of the other things they want to do.  That's where being able to start outside instead would make a big difference.

 

As for him accepting Gabe-like money..........that could be a huge amount to leave on the table.   I know the Bills wanted to extend Gabe but he wasn't taking 60 cents on the dollar.   With the punishment Shakir takes in the slot maybe he'd be more inclined to take a team friendly deal early but that punishment is also why you shoot for the bigger deal with more guarantees.   That might be the last deal he gets. 

Edited 11 hours ago by BADOLBILZ

[GoBills808]

24 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

You don't re-sign everyone, but you do re-sign a good home grown, young, developing, WR (Shakir) who is an integral part of your good team.  Now I don't think you go anywhere near the $24M spoken about above.  But you do give him market price a year early, a little more than G Davis money.

 

I hope the FO knows that WR's are not a dime a dozen.  Even slot WRs.  Looks at the problems that occurred in that area after Beasley left - McKenzie and Crowder were not the answer.  Give Josh weapons at the WR position, lets not backtrack and have to fill even more WR holes.  WR is an area where money should be spent.

 

As for not re-signing everyone, that unfortunately may have to be J Cook.

WR is absolutely an area where you have to spend, but judiciously 

 

Shakir is clearly a better player than Davis but he is a component, not a centerpiece. If he was we wouldn't have had to go and get Cooper. The dream scenario is Coleman develops into that stud WR1 and we pay him and continue backfilling around him via the draft 

 

The guys I want to pay are the ones w the all the tools...it's why I wouldn't have paid Oliver, Davis, Knox etc but that's split milk now

 

*Actually the DREAM dream scenario is Coleman shows enough promise to extend at market rate and then blossoms into Mike Evans after we ink him

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think the GENERAL consensus from draftniks was that Shakir was a day 2 pick but the people who thought Shakir could play outside are like the people who thought Cook was a WR playing RB.

 

Wrong.

 

At least thru 3 NFL seasons.

 

Fortunately they are really good at what they CAN do.  

 

Just so happens those things aren't valued as highly as the things they can't do.

 

Which is why there is a good chance that neither gets extended.

 

You think there is a good chance Shakir doesn't get extended?  Really?  

 

I will say it right now, barring some serious injury or unforseen regression rest of the season, Shakir is going to get an extension this offseason.  Beane, McD, Allen, and the entire team absolutely love this guy and he has been absolutely clutch for this team now carrying over from last year.  And no doubt Shakir seems to love Buffalo and the team too, so I am confident they will reach a fair deal that is good for him and the team and he will be a priority extension. 

 

Cook...well I entered the season thinking it was unlikely he would get a 2nd contract here just because he will either not play well enough to get one, or will play well and make his price tag too high to sign him back.  I said it on draft night, Davis was one of my favorite picks of the draft (he was my RB3 in the draft) and felt he very well could be Cooks successor.  Just felt like Cook was in a no win situation...he either doesn't play well enough to get a 2nd contract, or plays too good to where its too expensive to keep him, especially if Davis shows he is up for the task (which he has).  

So I do still think and agree Cook is probably gonna leave in FA as I can't see us spending big on a RB, especially with Davis showing he is legit and capable of leading the backfield.  And while I still think that is the more likely outcome, it also would not surprise me if Beane did find a way to keep Cook, its just not what I am expecting at this point from a cap perspective.  

Edited 11 hours ago by Alphadawg7

[Einstein's Dog]

23 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

WR is absolutely an area where you have to spend, but judiciously 

 

Shakir is clearly a better player than Davis but he is a component, not a centerpiece. If he was we wouldn't have had to go and get Cooper. The dream scenario is Coleman develops into that stud WR1 and we pay him and continue backfilling around him via the draft 

 

The guys I want to pay are the ones w the all the tools...it's why I wouldn't have paid Oliver, Davis, Knox etc but that's split milk now

 

*Actually the DREAM dream scenario is Coleman shows enough promise to extend at market rate and then blossoms into Mike Evans after we ink him

I agree with your assessment of Shakir as a component, not a centerpiece.  But he is turning into an excellent component so I hope he doesn't go away (then the Bills are left trying to fill that void again).  The hope is Shakir realizes his place and that the Bills and Shakir can come to terms with that perspective in mind.   A fair market price for a good slot receiver.   You generally have to pay him with guarantees a year early to get those kind of deals.  Do it. 

 

As for Coleman.  I don't think WR1 is in the cards.  I think the FO knew this when drafting him and he was always slated to be a better G Davis type.  The FO purposefully let him fall out of the first round because they never intended to pay him the 5th year option rate.

 

Right now it looks to me like the FO moves should be to extend A Cooper in a couple of months, extend Shakir, and let Coleman play out his rookie contract.  And keep drafting WRs to develop.

[BADOLBILZ]

15 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You think there is a good chance Shakir doesn't get extended?  Really?  

 

I will say it right now, barring some serious injury or unforseen regression rest of the season, Shakir is going to get an extension this offseason.  Beane, McD, Allen, and the entire team absolutely love this guy and he has been absolutely clutch for this team now carrying over from last year.  And no doubt Shakir seems to love Buffalo and the team too, so I am confident they will reach a fair deal that is good for him and the team and he will be a priority extension. 

 

Cook...well I entered the season thinking it was unlikely he would get a 2nd contract here just because he will either not play well enough to get one, or will play well and make his price tag too high to sign him back.  I said it on draft night, Davis was one of my favorite picks of the draft (he was my RB3 in the draft) and felt he very well could be Cooks successor.  Just felt like Cook was in a no win situation...he either doesn't play well enough to get a 2nd contract, or plays too good to where its too expensive to keep him, especially if Davis shows he is up for the task (which he has).  

So I do still think and agree Cook is probably gonna leave in FA as I can't see us spending big on a RB, especially with Davis showing he is legit and capable of leading the backfield.  And while I still think that is the more likely outcome, it also would not surprise me if Beane did find a way to keep Cook, its just not what I am expecting at this point from a cap perspective.  

 

 

I get that they love Shakir.  They absolutely loved Knox.  They absolutely loved team captain Gabe.

 

Knox had very efficient TE receiving numbers prior to his extension but everyone knew he had some limitations.   Shakir is the same way without the ability to be the regular X or Z.   They surely regret extending Knox.

 

So could the Bills draft a WR early with more inside/out versatility instead of paying Shakir the going rate and then not have to substitute as often to get where they want to be offensively?  

 

Whether they love them or not is a factor but they let Gabe go and he was playing nearly every snap.  Gabe wanted market and that was considerably more than his value to them.