I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[gonzo1105]

I see some people are back to the let’s find a # 1 guy in next years draft drafting between 28-32. Maybe we do but it would take a couple years for that to happen. Look at the guys drafted this year around the Bills pick and they’re all right now slated to have around 4 to 500 yards. Obviously they’ll get more opportunities as the season goes but we aren’t and I said this last year going to find an instant # 1 WR who is 6’2 runs a 4.3 and does everything the top guys in the league do late in round 1 

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Okay, then back to the question. Which plays have they made, that an average NFL WR wouldn’t have made? They’ve done what’s been asked of them but it isn’t much. They’re on pace for 180 catches and less than 2,000 yards. I don’t know how we can call that above fine. 

Well said @eball and I think that is why this thread can go on for another 2,000 pages. The offense has been awesome. The passing game has been quite good. Do you need elite WRs to have a great passing game? As of now, they have not. Just because those guys haven’t been needed yet doesn’t mean that they’ve been great. They’ve done what’s asked of them. Can they upgrade there? Absolutely, and don’t think anyone would argue that. Will they need to? That remains to be seen. This week they play a bad pass defense and may need to exploit that.

You are being completely obstinate at this point about the design of Brady’s offense.  This offense is going to run the ball more than you probably want.  This offense is designed to spread the ball around to guys that are open.  This offense is designed to not necessarily require a top level WR by your description, but rather WRs that are ready when their turn comes and that are willing to do things other than catching a ball (block) to achieve success.  And it’s working.  It worked the last half of last year and it’s working now.

 

The only argument you and others can make is:  but just wait, you’ll see what happens when DCs catch up.  They haven’t so far since Brady took over, have they? 

[Alphadawg7]

19 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

what are you thinking they will offer Shakir?

That’s a good question…I think it depends on the rest of the season.  
 

For example, if he finishes with what his stats are “projecting” at after 3 games say like 900-1000 yards, it will be different than say once our offense doesn’t have the luxury of taking 2nd halves off and his targets go further up and it leads to him finishing north of say 1200 yards.
 

I think if he is 900-1100 yard guy then something like high teens per might get it done.  He breaks 1200+ yards and I think $20m per and above is where it’s headed.  
 

  

Edited Saturday at 05:15 PM by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

You are being completely obstinate at this point about the design of Brady’s offense.  This offense is going to run the ball more than you probably want.  This offense is designed to spread the ball around to guys that are open.  This offense is designed to not necessarily require a top level WR by your description, but rather WRs that are ready when their turn comes and that are willing to do things other than catching a ball (block) to achieve success.  And it’s working.  It worked the last half of last year and it’s working now.

 

The only argument you and others can make is:  but just wait, you’ll see what happens when DCs catch up.  They haven’t so far since Brady took over, have they? 

 

The argument I make is in the biggest moments when everyone knows you are passing you will need guys who can win outside. Avoiding being in those high leverage situations is a good strategy. But at some you are likely to get there.

[gonzo1105]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The argument I make is in the biggest moments when everyone knows you are passing you will need guys who can win outside. Avoiding being in those high leverage situations is a good strategy. But at some you are likely to get there.

These situations are why it’s so vital to have Allen who can break the picket and either run or go into scramble drill with guys. I’m in the wait and see mode how these guys play in a tight game 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, gonzo1105 said:

These situations are why it’s so vital to have Allen who can break the picket and either run or go into scramble drill with guys. I’m in the wait and see mode how these guys play in a tight game 

 

We all are. I obviously love winning blow outs. But I hope the first time we get the ball last needing a touchdown to win is not in the playoffs. Cos I wanna "find out" before that.

[Kirby Jackson]

46 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

You just gotta hope we have succession plans if that’s the case.  Im not sure who is ready and under Brady. 

Daboll 😬

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The argument I make is in the biggest moments when everyone knows you are passing you will need guys who can win outside. Avoiding being in those high leverage situations is a good strategy. But at some you are likely to get there.

You and others keep harping on this for no apparent reason.  Why outside?  Why not up the seam?  If outside, why can’t it be a TE or RB, like Ty Johnson’s TD the other day?  Do they not count?  Is the only way to win when teams supposedly know you are passing is a guy on the outside?  Hasn’t Brady’s play calling shown you otherwise?  Or for that matter Andy Reid?

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The argument I make is in the biggest moments when everyone knows you are passing you will need guys who can win outside. Avoiding being in those high leverage situations is a good strategy. But at some you are likely to get there.

I already trust Shakir and Kincaid in these type of “big” moments and I think Coleman is showing potential he can eventually be too.  
 

And the difference is for me is there is more than one way to win outside, and that includes not starting lined up on the outside, using size and body control, etc.  

 

So while you specifically stated winning on the outside in these moments, where my view comes is I am less worried about guys needing to win in the way you are saying on the outside and just having guys win in general in big moments.
 

For example, in KC Kelce has been that guy in those moments…Gronk and Edelman were in those moments for Brady, etc.  

 

So I don’t see it as big moments come down to “winning outside” and more that in big moments someone needs to be depended on somewhere to win, and give me guys I trust to win in big moments in general.  

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Daboll 😬

Daboll with our OL would be great.  I don’t think McDermott would bring him back though.  They obviously don’t like each other.

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

So since you are saying they are producing as players what you expected

 

I didn't say the players are producing as I expected. Production as you note is volatile and highly context driven especially with such a small sample size. I said they are all performing the role that I expected.

 

You're conflating offensive performance with WR performance. As I've admitted quite a few times I was wrong to believe that the offense couldn't perform at a top level with middling WR talent. I was skeptical that Brady could make it work. I was wrong. He is taking WRs with somewhat limited skill sets and he is putting them in positions where those skill sets shine.

 

Also just keep in mind this conversation is relative to the entire NFL. I am not saying the WRs we have are untalented. Nobody that makes an NFL roster and gets on the field is untalented. We are looking at it within the scope of the entire league. Mack Hollins and Keon Coleman would never be on the field together for like 90% of offenses out there because there would be other players above them on the depth chart. The impressive thing is that Brady has found a way to put them on the field and draw up plays that work for their skill set.

[Kirby Jackson]

10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You are being completely obstinate at this point about the design of Brady’s offense.  This offense is going to run the ball more than you probably want.  This offense is designed to spread the ball around to guys that are open.  This offense is designed to not necessarily require a top level WR by your description, but rather WRs that are ready when their turn comes and that are willing to do things other than catching a ball (block) to achieve success.  And it’s working.  It worked the last half of last year and it’s working now.

 

The only argument you and others can make is:  but just wait, you’ll see what happens when DCs catch up.  They haven’t so far since Brady took over, have they? 

Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never said anything about the runnning game. Don’t make stuff up to strengthen whatever point you’re trying to make. The offense has worked. I hope it continues to work. I hope that they never have an injury. I hope Brady is here until Josh retires. 
 

What have I said that isn’t true? The Bills offense has been great. The WRs have made one play that an average NFL WR wouldn’t have made. I wish football used WAR like baseball and basketball. I think it would be telling. The stat of Josh throwing to his first read at the lowest clip in the NFL isn’t a good sign for the “these guys are doing great” crowd. He’s doing great as is the OL. It’s allowed him time to find other people that shook free. 
 

I am of the belief that they need a number 1. If they had an alpha at the top of the depth chart, I think this could become a good group. Shakir is Beasley that can run after the catch. Kincaid is the most talented TE to ever play for the Bills. We will see if they have guys on the boundary that can beat press. We haven’t seen that yet. That’s true. I expect teams to adapt and try different things because the offense has clicked so well. If, and when, they hit some adversity, is this group good enough? We don’t know. 

9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You and others keep harping on this for no apparent reason.  Why outside?  Why not up the seam?  If outside, why can’t it be a TE or RB, like Ty Johnson’s TD the other day?  Do they not count?  Is the only way to win when teams supposedly know you are passing is a guy on the outside?  Hasn’t Brady’s play calling shown you otherwise?  Or for that matter Andy Reid?

Lol, these are different arguments. That’s been the point. The Bills have proven that they can move the football in those manners. The question that NONE OF US KNOW THE ANSWER TO is can they win when those things are taken away. When someone dares you to win on the outside, can they? That’s the question for everyone and no one knows. 

7 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Daboll with our OL would be great.  I don’t think McDermott would bring him back though.  They obviously don’t like each other.

You might be right. I think Josh loved him though and he has power. I don’t know what other options will be out there (Stefanski maybe). 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

So any scrub is going to win his one on one battle with that much separation that Coleman got for his TD?

 

You know I love Coleman but yeah that TD was more about the scheme and the blocking than his individual play. Deep mesh against a blitz in single high safety is a no-win scenario for the defense unless the blitz gets home. The concept is that at the mesh point the CBs in trail coverage will get thrown off their line of direction just a tick which might as well be an eternity on an NFL field. The route combination created the separation.

 

Hilariously the single high safety didn't even commit to one of the mesh routes, he just hung out alone in the deep middle. It wouldn't have mattered if he did. The defense would have been wrong either way. James Cook is the unsung hero of the play standing up his blitzer and giving Josh enough time to get the pass off.

 

This play is actually a perfect example of what we're saying - the scheme and Josh's throw and the pass protection make the play work more than the WR's individual talent makes the play work.

 

 

[GASabresIUFan]

13 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

the existence of an elite wideout on a bad team isn't proof elite wideouts cause poor records

Didn't say they did.  I said the Bills are better because they have a more flexible offense without Diggs being feed 170 times a season and the results speak for themselves.  

 

I also said having an elite WR does not guarantee success as you and so many here want to believe.  The facts also support my contention.  

[GoBills808]

Just now, GASabresIUFan said:

Didn't say they did.  I said the Bills are better because they have a more flexible offense without Diggs being feed 170 times a season and the results speak for themselves.  

 

I also said having an elite WR does not guarantee success as you and so many here want to believe.  The facts also support my contention.  

just stop

nobody thinks or has said that

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never said anything about the runnning game. Don’t make stuff up to strengthen whatever point you’re trying to make. The offense has worked. I hope it continues to work. I hope that they never have an injury. I hope Brady is here until Josh retires. 
 

What have I said that isn’t true? The Bills offense has been great. The WRs have made one play that an average NFL WR wouldn’t have made. I wish football used WAR like baseball and basketball. I think it would be telling. The stat of Josh throwing to his first read at the lowest clip in the NFL isn’t a good sign for the “these guys are doing great” crowd. He’s doing great as is the OL. It’s allowed him time to find other people that shook free. 
 

I am of the belief that they need a number 1. If they had an alpha at the top of the depth chart, I think this could become a good group. Shakir is Beasley that can run after the catch. Kincaid is the most talented TE to ever play for the Bills. We will see if they have guys on the boundary that can beat press. We haven’t seen that yet. That’s true. I expect teams to adapt and try different things because the offense has clicked so well. If, and when, they hit some adversity, is this group good enough? We don’t know. 

My response is simple:  who the hell cares?  We have an OC that recognizes that defenses are playing more 2 deep and such to take away the deep ball, so in response he designs plays that take advantage of it.  He uses all the tools in the box including all the available guys that can catch the ball.  And.  It.  Is.  Working.  What does it matter if other guys could come in and do the same.
 

The depths to which some seek ways to be critical is really somewhat amusing.  Now it’s first read throw percentage, a stat I have never even seen before but see it here as a way to criticize.  
 

[GASabresIUFan]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

just stop

nobody thinks or has said that

If you don't believe this than why did so many lobby and continue to lobby to acquire WR after WR after WR.  

 

The running theory during the off-season and into the season is that we must get a No. 1 receiver at any price and that we couldn't survive without Diggs.  Well that theory has been shot to hell, yet and other keep bringing it up.  I say stop!

Edited Saturday at 05:40 PM by GASabresIUFan

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

You know I love Coleman but yeah that TD was more about the scheme and the blocking than his individual play. Deep mesh against a blitz in single high safety is a no-win scenario for the defense unless the blitz gets home. The concept is that at the mesh point the CBs in trail coverage will get thrown off their line of direction just a tick which might as well be an eternity on an NFL field. The route combination created the separation.

 

Hilariously the single high safety didn't even commit to one of the mesh routes, he just hung out alone in the deep middle. It wouldn't have mattered if he did. The defense would have been wrong either way. James Cook is the unsung hero of the play standing up his blitzer and giving Josh enough time to get the pass off.

 

This play is actually a perfect example of what we're saying - the scheme and Josh's throw and the pass protection make the play work more than the WR's individual talent makes the play work.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

You know I love Coleman but yeah that TD was more about the scheme and the blocking than his individual play. Deep mesh against a blitz in single high safety is a no-win scenario for the defense unless the blitz gets home. The concept is that at the mesh point the CBs in trail coverage will get thrown off their line of direction just a tick which might as well be an eternity on an NFL field. The route combination created the separation.

 

Hilariously the single high safety didn't even commit to one of the mesh routes, he just hung out alone in the deep middle. It wouldn't have mattered if he did. The defense would have been wrong either way. James Cook is the unsung hero of the play standing up his blitzer and giving Josh enough time to get the pass off.

 

This play is actually a perfect example of what we're saying - the scheme and Josh's throw and the pass protection make the play work more than the WR's individual talent makes the play work.

 

 

no doubt it's a pretty unlucky (lucky for us) defensive playcall...no offense to coleman. from the looks of their interior at snap they were expecting run and bit on the playaction

 

but i mean you cant play a man cover1 like that if your DEs are going to pattycake w 190lb rbs

 

literally either guy is wide open for a td there

 

lack of effort imo

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

My response is simple:  who the hell cares?  We have an OC that recognizes that defenses are playing more 2 deep and such to take away the deep ball, so in response he designs plays that take advantage of it.  He uses all the tools in the box including all the available guys that can catch the ball.  And.  It.  Is.  Working.  What does it matter if other guys could come in and do the same.
 

The depths to which some seek ways to be critical is really somewhat amusing.  Now it’s first read throw percentage, a stat I have never even seen before but see it here as a way to criticize.  
 

This is absolutely fair and we are largely in agreement. It isn’t about being critical. It’s asking a question for consideration. When teams evolve, will the Bills be able to evolve or will the talent on the outside hold them back? We don’t know. That post was from Joe Marino, arguably the most informed Bills follower there is.

 

The reason that I’ve wanted to improve on the outside is to increase the likelihood that they will be able to win in those situations. It’s hard to be good everywhere. There’s no doubt about that. With that being said, if the Bills could add one thing to the roster right now, it would be a stud boundary WR (or kicker). They have 100% done what’s asked of them. It is still the biggest question on the team (kicker excluded). Both are true and that’s the crux of this conversation. It has worked well so far. Is it fair to have concerns if it will work when teams adapt? I think that it’s reasonable to wonder that. 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, GASabresIUFan said:

If you don't believe this than why did so many lobby and continue to lobby to acquire WR after WR after WR.  

 

The running theory during the off-season and into the season is that we must get a No. 1 receiver at any price and that we couldn't survive without Diggs.  Well that theory has been shot to hell, yet and other keep bringing it up.  I say stop!

because WR is an important position, and a QB like Allen has a multiplier effect on offensive weapons

 

you think this is settled, so be it. don't reply then