I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

For sure, but it becomes a little chicken and egg. Shakir has been quite good. He’s trending for 79/952/11. He doing it with great efficiency. Those numbers aren’t “elite.” That’s quality. That’s a better version of Beasley.
 

The rest of the WRs COMBINED have 16/182/2. If you extrapolate that out it’s 91/1031/11. Obviously circumstance has played a role and the trends will likely change. I don’t think ANYONE can say that they’d be okay with our WRs combining for under 2000 yards and 180 catches (despite how well they block).
 

The teams has played great. The coaching has been next level good. Shakir is a quality WR and the backs/tes have been good as well. The WRs were the biggest concern entering the year and remain that now. It’s still a bottom 3 group but it may not matter. That’s what we all hoped. The passing game has been quite good. The run game has been quite good and those boundary WRs deserve a lot of credit for that too. Will this offense continue clicking like this when teams adjust and force those guys to beat them? 

 

I still think you're overlooking the context.

 

How many more catches would Shakir and other WR's have if we didn't have 2 blowouts and the 1st half against the Cards?  

 

If the Jags kept the game somewhat close, is it out of the realm of possibility that Shakir goes 10 catches/130/1 or 2 TD's?  He was 6/72/1 TD when we didn't even throw the ball in the 2nd half.  

 

I will disagree with you on Shakir being quality.  He's above quality....he's only had 14 targets so far.  By the end of the season, Shakir will be up there with Amon Ra St. Brown for best interior WR in the league.  I think Shakir is that good.

[oldmanfan]

Through the entire off-season I said the most important factor this season was Brady and how he schemed the offense.  Thus far he is doing extremely well.  Those who keep harping on the idea that the WR group is subpar are doing so because they are grasping at straws to find something negative.  Why they feel the need to be negative only they can explain.

 

When you have a philosophy that everybody eats, you won’t have a guy put up huge numbers.  Brady’s offense is predicated on having everyone eat, and by balancing run and pass.  And it’s working.  It’s working because the O line has been dominant, because Josh is in fact going to the right guy at the right time, and because in this offense it is not just WRs that catch but TEs and RBs.  Look how many guys scored last week.

 

For those now moaning that we’ll have to see what happens when they take X away, or play a better team, blah, blah, my response is this:  let them be scared of us, not the other way around.

[Roundybout]

 

 

Very interesting stat. I think this is what we fans have been looking forward to for years 

[ColoradoBills]

5 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

 

 

Very interesting stat. I think this is what we fans have been looking forward to for years 

 

Well, this just proves Allen is over-rated.  It's his "elite" YAC receivers that are winning football games!

 

Seriously, this is an amazing stat and just proves how "different" this year offense is so far.

[Kirby Jackson]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'll modify it to bottom 4. Woah boy the Ravens group has struggled. We will get a test of it Sunday Night but they are in my conversation now for bad WR groups. 

Their WRs stink. That’s fair. Shakir is way better than anyone that they have (including Flowers IMO).

[Kirby Jackson]

15 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I still think you're overlooking the context.

 

How many more catches would Shakir and other WR's have if we didn't have 2 blowouts and the 1st half against the Cards?  

 

If the Jags kept the game somewhat close, is it out of the realm of possibility that Shakir goes 10 catches/130/1 or 2 TD's?  He was 6/72/1 TD when we didn't even throw the ball in the 2nd half.  

 

I will disagree with you on Shakir being quality.  He's above quality....he's only had 14 targets so far.  By the end of the season, Shakir will be up there with Amon Ra St. Brown for best interior WR in the league.  I think Shakir is that good.

I’m not overlooking it. How many plays were designed for those guys? Is it because we didn’t need to or because we were better off giving the ball to the superior players (Cook/Kincaid)? How many plays were designed for those guys that Josh checked down on? How many times did he take off or throw it away because of lack of separation? How many times did a WR burn a DB and Josh missed them? We don’t know ANY of this. 
 

All that we can base it off of is the production. We can base it off of what we know with certainty. At this point, we have seen them run after the catch. Shakir has been very reliable. They’ve blocked really well. They’ve made a couple of plays. All of that is true but they absolutely remain the biggest weakness. I’m not sure that you could make a case for any other position group besides kicker. It may not matter in either case. That’s what we hope. These first 3 weeks though aren’t a “win” for those talking about an improved wr room. It may be an improved passing game but that’s in large part because of the design and Josh. 

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Well, this just proves Allen is over-rated.  It's his "elite" YAC receivers that are winning football games!

 

Seriously, this is an amazing stat and just proves how "different" this year offense is so far.

yup proves 3 things for me

 

1- route design is tailored to generate YAC

2- davis+diggs were borderline useless in general after catch

3- allen is dealing unconscious rn

[ColoradoBills]

21 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

yup proves 3 things for me

 

1- route design is tailored to generate YAC

2- davis+diggs were borderline useless in general after catch

3- allen is dealing unconscious rn

 

For sure about the change in route designs being a big factor.

The thing about Diggs was in the past 2 years his talent for getting open was underneath which accounted for a very limited YAC.

There were the occasional plays where he broke open for a big YAC but also a lot of catch and dive to the ground stuff.

[Royale with Cheese]

23 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m not overlooking it. How many plays were designed for those guys? Is it because we didn’t need to or because we were better off giving the ball to the superior players (Cook/Kincaid)? How many plays were designed for those guys that Josh checked down on? How many times did he take off or throw it away because of lack of separation? How many times did a WR burn a DB and Josh missed them? We don’t know ANY of this. 
 

All that we can base it off of is the production. We can base it off of what we know with certainty. At this point, we have seen them run after the catch. Shakir has been very reliable. They’ve blocked really well. They’ve made a couple of plays. All of that is true but they absolutely remain the biggest weakness. I’m not sure that you could make a case for any other position group besides kicker. It may not matter in either case. That’s what we hope. These first 3 weeks though aren’t a “win” for those talking about an improved wr room. It may be an improved passing game but that’s in large part because of the design and Josh. 

 

If the production continues, how can it still be considered a weakness?  

Do any of those questions really matter if we have seeing this type of production?  It's not like Allen is always throwing to tight windows because the WR's are blanketed.

 

That last sentence to me is saying that you're never going to give the WR's credit even if this production continues.  Brady isn't going to call a certain play if he feels he doesn't have the WR's to execute it and that includes getting open.  We are spreading the ball out because both Allen and Brady trust the WR's on the field.

Collectively they are good, or at least what they're showing now.  Raw stats aren't the only thing that prove a player is good or not.

 

But overall the league is down in passing.  Mel Kiper makes a crazy comment to eliminate the Cover 2 because it's hurting the deep passing attack.  Well we are adjusting to it and it seems like the FO is getting criticized for it.

 

 

[Mikey152]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

If the production continues, how can it still be considered a weakness?  

Do any of those questions really matter if we have seeing this type of production?  It's not like Allen is always throwing to tight windows because the WR's are blanketed.

 

That last sentence to me is saying that you're never going to give the WR's credit even if this production continues.  Brady isn't going to call a certain play if he feels he doesn't have the WR's to execute it and that includes getting open.  We are spreading the ball out because both Allen and Brady trust the WR's on the field.

Collectively they are good, or at least what they're showing now.  Raw stats aren't the only thing that prove a player is good or not.

 

But overall the league is down in passing.  Mel Kiper makes a crazy comment to eliminate the Cover 2 because it's hurting the deep passing attack.  Well we are adjusting to it and it seems like the FO is getting criticized for it.

 

 

That's why this thread is pointless...

 

They are starting with a premise (the WR are bad) and using confirmation bias to support their theory. Josh could have the best season of his life and win the MVP, and sentiments in here will be that he did it IN SPITE of his WR. How silly is that?  

 

Here is my question to all the haters:  Joe Brady isn't new. Josh Allen isn't new. The Oline isn't new. The RB aren't new. The TE isn't new. Even the scheme isn't really new. The only thing that is new this season is the WR room. Why are you SO sure that some of this success isn't because they are good in this scheme? And if they are good in this scheme and the offense and team succeeds, doesn't that make them good for the Bills?  And doesn't that equally make guys like Diggs and Davis worse IN THIS SCHEME?  

 

Flat out, this scheme requires the receivers to catch, RAC, and block. Same as the rest of the skill guys. The guys this year are CLEARLY a better fit than the guys last year, regardless of your arbitrary metrics about who is better. All it takes is two eyes to see it. Everyone talks about how much better Josh looks, like he took some magic potion this offseason...maybe he just has a better team???

 

Analogy:  A Ferrari is better than a RAM 1500...unless you need to tow something.

Edited 23 minutes ago by Mikey152

[Avisan]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

In the second, they've minimized their strength at QB.    

... Yet he's playing great and we're blowing out teams via overwhelming offensive efficiency.  What's up with that?

[ColoradoBills]

25 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

But overall the league is down in passing.  Mel Kiper makes a crazy comment to eliminate the Cover 2 because it's hurting the deep passing attack.  Well we are adjusting to it and it seems like the FO is getting criticized for it

 

Him talking about "banning" a defensive scheme is insane.  Football has been a "cat and mouse" game between offense and defense

for its entire history.  Let it progress naturally.

 

I for one am glad that Ds have found a way to minimize the passing advantage given to the O.  These games where each team runs up and

down the field without obstruction is boring to me in its own way.

Edited 1 hour ago by ColoradoBills
grammer

[pennstate10]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'll modify it to bottom 4. Woah boy the Ravens group has struggled. We will get a test of it Sunday Night but they are in my conversation now for bad WR groups. 

The problem with putting Bills WR in bottom 4 is you aren’t normalizing the reception number and yds for opportunities given. Bills have only passed the ball for 2 games, not 3. 

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

What I'll always remember about those years is the 2011 season.  Buffalo was 5-2 and hosting the Jets having averaged over 30 points that year.  Jets jammed their WR's at the LOS and set the blueprint on stopping Bills' offense...which was contingent on Fitz making short timed throws to a poor group of WRs.  Bills went 1-8 the rest of the way and offense fell off a cliff.  

 

It's an absurd comparison because Buffalo then was limited at least by A) their weak-armed QB needing an offensive design like that and B) a poor WR group.  Now, they have perhaps the best QB in the NFL surrounded by an ensemble cast of unproven or middling WRs and it's by design.  

 

In the first example, the offense had to hide their weaknesses.  In the second, they've minimized their strength at QB.    

Who is the leading candidate for MVP right now?  Josh Allen.  Enough said.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, pennstate10 said:

The problem with putting Bills WR in bottom 4 is you aren’t normalizing the reception number and yds for opportunities given. Bills have only passed the ball for 2 games, not 3. 

 

Its not about numbers. That was where I had them pre-season. I need to see more before I move them up.

[gonzo1105]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Its not about numbers. That was where I had them pre-season. I need to see more before I move them up.

 

While I dont think the WR group is great by any stretch, Brady's utilization of the Running Backs and Tight Ends is making our passing game look a hell of a lot better as well as his scheming of the WR's. I'm curious how we will look in another 4-5 weeks after the Bills and Brady's schemes have more tape on them for Defensive Coordinator's to get a look at.

[Kirby Jackson]

22 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

If the production continues, how can it still be considered a weakness?  

Do any of those questions really matter if we have seeing this type of production?  It's not like Allen is always throwing to tight windows because the WR's are blanketed.

 

That last sentence to me is saying that you're never going to give the WR's credit even if this production continues.  Brady isn't going to call a certain play if he feels he doesn't have the WR's to execute it and that includes getting open.  We are spreading the ball out because both Allen and Brady trust the WR's on the field.

Collectively they are good, or at least what they're showing now.  Raw stats aren't the only thing that prove a player is good or not.

 

But overall the league is down in passing.  Mel Kiper makes a crazy comment to eliminate the Cover 2 because it's hurting the deep passing attack.  Well we are adjusting to it and it seems like the FO is getting criticized for it.

 

 

If the draft were held tomorrow, where would you want the Bills to use their first pick? Their 2 seconds? I don’t see a scenario where WR isn’t at least one of those. It’s the biggest hole on the team still despite a strong passing game so far. That’s why it’s a weakness. 
 

I’ll spin that back to you. Which plays have they made that an average NFL WR wouldn’t? Maybe the Shakir run after catch last game is an example. Otherwise, they’ve done what is expected. I’ll be impressed when they start doing things that a replacement level player wouldn’t. They’ve been fine. They are on pace for less than 2000 yards. Both are true.

 

I do believe though that Brady deserves the most credit. Allen is next and then the pass catchers. That’s at least how I view it at this point. The scheme is the biggest reason that the offense is clicking imo.

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I still think you're overlooking the context.

 

How many more catches would Shakir and other WR's have if we didn't have 2 blowouts and the 1st half against the Cards?  

 

If the Jags kept the game somewhat close, is it out of the realm of possibility that Shakir goes 10 catches/130/1 or 2 TD's?  He was 6/72/1 TD when we didn't even throw the ball in the 2nd half.  

 

I will disagree with you on Shakir being quality.  He's above quality....he's only had 14 targets so far.  By the end of the season, Shakir will be up there with Amon Ra St. Brown for best interior WR in the league.  I think Shakir is that good.

I think those are 2 similar guys 

 

St Brown a little bigger but shakir a little faster ... Both super tough runners and savvy route runners 

[eball]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

they've minimized their strength at QB.

 

You've said a lot of things I disagree with over the years, but this one has me shaking my head.

 

Umm, what?

 

What, precisely, do you think Josh's strength is?  Winging the ball 50 yards down the field?  Playing QB like he's Jim Brown?

 

 

[gonzo1105]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

If the draft were held tomorrow, where would you want the Bills to use their first pick? Their 2 seconds? I don’t see a scenario where WR isn’t at least one of those. It’s the biggest hole on the team still despite a strong passing game so far. That’s why it’s a weakness. 
 

I’ll spin that back to you. Which plays have they made that an average NFL WR wouldn’t? Maybe the Shakir run after catch last game is an example. Otherwise, they’ve done what is expected. I’ll be impressed when they start doing things that a replacement level player wouldn’t. They’ve been fine. They are on pace for less than 2000 yards. Both are true.

 

I do believe though that Brady deserves the most credit. Allen is next and then the pass catchers. That’s at least how I view it at this point. The scheme is the biggest reason that the offense is clicking imo.

 

I mean things have to be looked at in perspective. Yes I would draft another WR, i'm not going to argue that point but it looks like Brady has put a focus on everyone getting involved including the Tight End's and Running Backs.  We also have blown out 2 of the 3 teams we have played and essentially have ran the ball for 3 or 4 quarters so far this year after the games were no longer in the balance so the WR statistics would look better if we actually had to throw the ball. Their making the plays they have been asked to make so far and outside of the Cook drop we have been sure handed.