I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[EmotionallyUnstable]

29 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

He also has this weird habit of drifting toward contact to orient himself on the field, which strikes me as a basketball-derived trait.  He’s a power forward at receiver.  If he puts it all together - watch out.

I think this can be a good thing when used at the right time to create leverage. There are so many nuances to route running that take time to learn, specifically how to gain separation at the top of the route. 
 

He’ll never be a guy that just flat out wins with speed from the LOS ala Tyrek Hill or Ja’Marr Chase….so it’s a good thing he seems to take comfort in playing in phase. 

[Meatloaf63]

7 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Can you explain how you expect Shakira/Samuel to excel in a role that Stefon Diggs couldn't last year?

Couldn’t or wouldn’t? We’ll know in a few weeks if Diggs just gave up.

[Meatloaf63]

6 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Again, it is much easier getting open when you have a number 1 guy taking the best cb or drawing coverages. IMO, Shakir and Samuel would be better players/ threats if we have a Diggs type player defenses have to pay attention too. 
 

 

Except  many plays,  third down plays, Diggs took himself off the field and we still had success. How did that happen without the #1 on the field? Shakir performed regardless. Going to be interesting to see this all come together.

[Meatloaf63]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

So every receiver who isn't drawing double teams is playing badly?   Man, this "in aggregate" formula to success is complicated.   I think @JerseyBills might be running a ponzi scheme here.

 

 

No you’re just saying ***** to say *****. If you think Diggs was playing at a high level you are delusional. That was a waste of a post, everyone here is a little dumber for spending time reading that. 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Except  many plays,  third down plays, Diggs took himself off the field and we still had success. How did that happen without the #1 on the field? Shakir performed regardless. 

 

Oy vey what ignorance.  Diggs played 82% of the Bills offensive snaps in 2023.  More than he played in 2022 (77%) and exact same % as 2021.   Be better.  Get out of your emotions.

 

[hondo in seattle]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

FIFY

 

My "agenda" here is to talk Bills football and be entertained.   It's all entertainment.   But that doesn't mean we have to be intellectually dishonest about the product that's put on the field.  

 

You aren't ever going to come here and find nothing but "like minds" that you seek.   Everyone's experience and what they expect from the product are not going to be the same.   So getting your nose bent during a nuanced discussion about a specific topic.......to the point where you are asking about agenda's.....that is showing how thin your skin is.

 

So I guess I can then ask:   What's your agenda as a fan?   How much do you invest in this team?   If it's less than me are you less of a fan?  Or don't our differences matter then?😉

 

Thin skin?   Hmm.  I guess those hundreds of philosophy & religion books I've read and thousands of hours I've spent in meditation were a waste of time!  Damn!!!  Or maybe you just read the tea leaves wrong.  Having led soldiers in combat where a trained and heavily armed enemy was determined to kill us, do you seriously believe your silly anonymous argumentativeness on a fan website gets under my skin?  Your sharp wit or a tank battalion - I'm not sure which I fear more.  Let me reflect upon this as deeply as it deserves.  I may not be able to sleep tonight.  

 

If you want to keep lobbing insults in my direction, go ahead.  I won't lob them back because that's not what I'm here for. 

 

"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly."

  

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said:

No you’re just saying ***** to say *****. If you think Diggs was playing at a high level you are delusional. That was a waste of a post, everyone here is a little dumber for spending time reading that. 

 

 

Nah, this is not true.

 

Was he playing as well as he had? Probably not. Was he still scaring teams, consistently drawing doubles and pulling safeties over to his side? Yeah, he was. 

 

A lot of this seems to have been the route combos, when Josh threw to him, etc. How he was fitting in. You watch. He's going to run up a ton of yards this year in Houston.

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

You know I loved the Keon Coleman pick Alpha. But recent reports have not been quite as optimistic as this. He struggled separating in the endzone against Chicago and reportedly struggled separating against Pittsburgh in the joint practice too. I'm not backing down on my initial feelings about him as a prospect, not even close, but we have to be realistic about the expectations in his rookie year. His game needs a lot of refinement. I knew that even when I was the loudest voice in the room advocating to draft him. His physical skills and work ethic make me confident he will get there eventually. As far as this year though I can't see him immediately performing like a true WR1. Those are big shoes to fill for a raw young rookie.

 

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for Metcalf or Hopkins at the trade deadline.

 

 

Fair look at Keon, IMO. Seems reasonable to me to guess that he'll produce even this year, but not at the level many hope. I agree he might take a while, but I'm still very hopeful.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Except  many plays,  third down plays, Diggs took himself off the field and we still had success. How did that happen without the #1 on the field? Shakir performed regardless. Going to be interesting to see this all come together.

 

This is an exaggeration. Sure, it happened. But "many third downs" nah. We did not have many third downs where Stef went out and we had success passing the ball. 

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

And look at someone like Rashee Rice...he didn't come out the gate as the WR1...he was averaging only 34 yards a game through 5 games before his role started to increase to where he finished as the WR1 by seasons end.  

 

 

And you know what changed? They increasingly used him from the slot to help him with his releases and to find more zone coverage he could take advantage of. 

 

I am with Joe Marino and what he said the other day. If you want Coleman to win you gotta put him in positions where he can run to space and use his athleticism. Some of that is finding him the soft spot in zones out of the slot some of it is designing plays to get the ball in his hands near the line and then let him run to space. Or you throw up jump balls to him and try and have him fight throught traffic - but that route IMO isn't a sustianable way to live in the NFL. Expecting Keon to win with precision or nuance in his release, his route running and his understanding of leverage at this stage just isn't realistic. Joe and I seem to see him exactly the same. Probably not surprising. We were pretty aligned on him pre-draft too. 

[Doc Brown]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Oy vey what ignorance.  Diggs played 82% of the Bills offensive snaps in 2023.  More than he played in 2022 (77%) and exact same % as 2021.   Be better.  Get out of your emotions.

 

True but he played 87% average per game under Dorsey and 76% under Brady (including playoffs).  The two blowouts over the Redskins and Raiders pry kept it from being over 90% under Dorsey.  To be fair it also would've been higher under Brady if it wasn't for Dallas being inept at stopping the run.  The alarm bells went off for me when he only got 60% of the snaps against the Chargers and 65% in the 2nd Pats game (must wins).  What are we doing here?  You can't save load management him for the playoffs if you don't make the playoffs.  Maybe he was nursing an injury but regardless  I really don't blame Diggs for wanting out of Brady's offense.  His skill set isn't best suited for bubble screens.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

11 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I think this can be a good thing when used at the right time to create leverage. There are so many nuances to route running that take time to learn, specifically how to gain separation at the top of the route. 
 

He’ll never be a guy that just flat out wins with speed from the LOS ala Tyrek Hill or Ja’Marr Chase….so it’s a good thing he seems to take comfort in playing in phase. 

I just want to see him physically bully sauce gardener just once 

[Chaos]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

True but he played 87% average per game under Dorsey and 76% under Brady (including playoffs).  The two blowouts over the Redskins and Raiders pry kept it from being over 90% under Dorsey.  To be fair it also would've been higher under Brady if it wasn't for Dallas being inept at stopping the run.  The alarm bells went off for me when he only got 60% of the snaps against the Chargers and 65% in the 2nd Pats game (must wins).  What are we doing here?  You can't save load management him for the playoffs if you don't make the playoffs.  Maybe he was nursing an injury but regardless  I really don't blame Diggs for wanting out of Brady's offense.  His skill set isn't best suited for bubble screens.

Has anyone compiled the offensive statistics with Dorsey last year compared to Brady? I would find that interesting.  

[JerseyBills]

12 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Except  many plays,  third down plays, Diggs took himself off the field and we still had success. How did that happen without the #1 on the field? Shakir performed regardless. Going to be interesting to see this all come together.

Ya and his 100+ targets over that span vs rec and yards were pitiful..

So regardless,  that's 100+ targets that will go to Kincaid, Knox, Shakir, Samuel,  Coleman,  Hollins, Cook, Davis, MVS etc..

 

Those targets will almost definitely equate to better results than Diggs put up.. And Diggs was horrible as a run blocker 

 

We can be much more versatile with these weapons, especially early in the year cause Ds won't know how to gameplan imo.. More unpredictability for the O.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

True but he played 87% average per game under Dorsey and 76% under Brady (including playoffs).  The two blowouts over the Redskins and Raiders pry kept it from being over 90% under Dorsey.  To be fair it also would've been higher under Brady if it wasn't for Dallas being inept at stopping the run.  The alarm bells went off for me when he only got 60% of the snaps against the Chargers and 65% in the 2nd Pats game (must wins).  What are we doing here?  You can't save load management him for the playoffs if you don't make the playoffs.  Maybe he was nursing an injury but regardless  I really don't blame Diggs for wanting out of Brady's offense.  His skill set isn't best suited for bubble screens.

 

 

Yep.

 

The Bills were probably the Hilarius Toney off-side in KC from missing the playoffs entirely........and then the narrative with Brady is that he didn't put his superstar receiver in position to succeed.   

 

 

[NeverOutNick]

Watching NFL network and they’re talking about my boy Burton. Another guy I wanted the Bills to take 3rd round. But can’t fault them too much since he went before their pick 

[Alphadawg7]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And you know what changed? They increasingly used him from the slot to help him with his releases and to find more zone coverage he could take advantage of. 

 

I am with Joe Marino and what he said the other day. If you want Coleman to win you gotta put him in positions where he can run to space and use his athleticism. Some of that is finding him the soft spot in zones out of the slot some of it is designing plays to get the ball in his hands near the line and then let him run to space. Or you throw up jump balls to him and try and have him fight throught traffic - but that route IMO isn't a sustianable way to live in the NFL. Expecting Keon to win with precision or nuance in his release, his route running and his understanding of leverage at this stage just isn't realistic. Joe and I seem to see him exactly the same. Probably not surprising. We were pretty aligned on him pre-draft too. 

 

I didn't compare him as a player to Rice, I just said Keon doesn't have to open week 1 as "the guy" and can grow into a bigger role as the season goes on.  

 

I am confident the Bills did not draft him thinking his ability to get open is as limited as you and Marino are stating, so right away I know the Bills scouts and Beane likely don't agree with this assessment, and that is even further strengthened if you listen to Beane discuss Keon and what they liked about him.  But, like anything else, they are just opinions until we see it on the field too, so doesn't make anyone right or wrong right now.

 

With the bolded above, I don't agree that its "unrealistic" at this stage because he is already doing it against out DB's.  If you want to say it's unrealistic for him to do it with a high frequency at this stage, then I would agree with that because that is true for most rookies.  And that goes back to my point you responded to, he doesn't need to come out the gate as a Bonafide WR1 in this offense, he can grow and develop into that role as continues to develop as a player.  But to say it's unrealistic for him to do it all is just not something I can agree with as I have already seen him do it.  

 

We will see...and I appreciate your perspective even if I am not aligned with it.  I just think you are Marino are prematurely capping his ceiling more than you should be at this stage.  He doesn't have to have GOAT potential to be a great WR for us either.  

 

Edited August 17 by Alphadawg7

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I didn't compare him as a player to Rice, I just said Keon doesn't have to open week 1 as "the guy" and can grow into a bigger role as the season goes on.  

 

I am confident the Bills did not draft him thinking his ability to get open is as limited as you and Marino are stating, so right away I know the Bills scouts and Beane likely don't agree with this assessment, and that is even further strengthened if you listen to Beane discuss Keon and what they liked about him.  But, like anything else, they are just opinions until we see it on the field too, so doesn't make anyone right or wrong right now.

 

With the bolded above, I don't agree that its "unrealistic" at this stage because he is already doing it against out DB's.  If you want to say it's unrealistic for him to do it with a high frequency at this stage, then I would agree with that because that is true for most rookies.  And that goes back to my point you responded to, he doesn't need to come out the gate as a Bonafide WR1 in this offense, he can grow and develop into that role as continues to develop as a player.  But to say it's unrealistic for him to do it all is just not something I can agree with as I have already seen him do it.  

 

We will see...and I appreciate your perspective even if I am not aligned with it.  I just think you are Marino are prematurely capping his ceiling more than you should be at this stage.  He doesn't have to have GOAT potential to be a great WR for us either.  

 

What numbers do you have him producing this year?

 

Rice had 79 for 938 and 7 TD’s. Are we thinking Coleman beats that?

[Awwufelloff]

We’re gonna miss diggs 

[Alphadawg7]

11 minutes ago, FireChans said:

What numbers do you have him producing this year?

 

Rice had 79 for 938 and 7 TD’s. Are we thinking Coleman beats that?

 

If Keon and Rice played in the same role in terms of target share, yes I believe he has the potential to put up that kind of season or even better with Josh Allen.  But Keon and Rice's situations are quite different.  KC's WR room outside Rice was about as bad as it gets.  So Rice became WR1 amongst the WR room in terms of targets really out of need with how bad Skyy, Toney, and MVS were faltering.

 

Bills are not in that situation (barring injuries of course).  Kincaid, Shakir, and Samuel will all see a healthy amount of targets, not to mention probably 100 targets for our RB's and guys like Knox and Hollins that will see some too.  

 

So, my opinion is that Keon as a rookie finishes the season probably 3rd in targets with a range of 750-850 yards and 7+ TD's.  Now if the chemistry him and Allen have shown in camp carries over into the early parts of the regular season and things start clicking early, he has the potential to surpass that prediction.  But, I am not counting on that, and I expect a heavier dose of Kincaid, Shakir, and Samuel early in the season to not put too much pressure on Keon early as he learns and adjusts to the NFL.