C.Biscuit97 Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 17 minutes ago, SCBills said: Both are younger, faster and quicker. They are not prime Diggs. However, Diggs was not prime Diggs. And whatever he was last half of the season, wasn’t even a WR1. We saw that screen to Samuel last week and there’s zero chance Diggs makes it look that easy. But we were forced to throw him those last year to get him touches because he wasn’t beating man coverage for whatever reason. Again, it is much easier getting open when you have a number 1 guy taking the best cb or drawing coverages. IMO, Shakir and Samuel would be better players/ threats if we have a Diggs type player defenses have to pay attention too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 24 minutes ago, Mikey152 said: They never said they needed outside speed...They lost some depth players to injury and are trying to replace them with similar players. You're reading into things that aren't there. I am reminded of the scene in The Shawshank Redemption where Andy Dufresne is telling Warden Norton about someone else who committed the crime which put him in prison. After making a coherent argument, Norton argues against that possibility, leading to Dufresne to ask him "how can you be so obtuse." This thread is a lot of Dufresne's arguing with Warden Norton's...the latter of whom have something to protect and cannot be bothered with reason. Apparently now, if someone doesn't explicitly state something, it can't possibly be true. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 2 minutes ago, BillsVet said: I am reminded of the scene in The Shawshank Redemption where Andy Dufresne is telling Warden Norton about someone else who committed the crime which put him in prison. After making a coherent argument, Norton argues against that possibility, leading to Dufresne to ask him "how can you be so obtuse." This thread is a lot of Dufresne's arguing with Warden Norton's...the latter of whom have something to protect and cannot be bothered with reason. Apparently now, if someone doesn't explicitly state something, it can't possibly be true. If anyone is a Norton, it's you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: If anyone is a Norton, it's you. SHOTS FIRED! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 19 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: Mahomes has thrown for over 4,000 yards six consecutive seasons despite his own revolving door of receivers including the loss of Tyreek Hill. Counterpoint: Mahomes in 2023 had his worst statistical season of his career. His offense was 15th in points scored. He posted the least total regular season wins of any season he was a starter. If that’s the kind of elevation we are gonna see in Buffalo, we are in big time trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 41 minutes ago, FireChans said: It’s fine because Diggs’ days were numbered as a high-level WR, extension or no. Ultimately, this team is going to have to reset the WR room multiple times during Josh Allen’s career. Between the market forces and crazy contracts, we are not gonna see high level QB/WR combos play 12 years together probably ever again. When I say it’s fine, I don’t mean that they are without fault or blame. The Diggs extension was an obvious disaster, especially because Beane bent his own negotiation rules to make an exception to Diggs and extend him with 2 years left. But once that mistake has been made, there is no good way to rip off that bandaid. I get why they did the Diggs extension...but I also think there is some truth to that being a mistake. I think because the market went so WR crazy contract wise that year, they tried to use a contract extension a year early to keep Diggs content, but the real issue wasn't as much the money as it was his frustration not getting over the hump and waning confidence this team could do it before the cap would force changes that were looming between age and the cap. There are players that would have worked well with...but Diggs isn't wired that way IMHO. 41 minutes ago, FireChans said: Suffice it to say, even if we drafted 3 WR’s in 2024 (imo we should have drafted 2 at a minimum) the 2024 WR group would’ve still looked significantly weaker. It would still be a down year talent-wise with eyes on the future. But they may have eyes on something like a move for Metcalf prior to 2025 along with a second year Coleman and 4th year Shakir. Thats why it’s so maddening some folks won’t admit we are worse lol. It’s the bare minimum of assessing this group. This last statement is the disconnect between you and the majority of the people who have maybe more optimistic expectations from the changes. You just said this sentence as if it is definitively true were are actually worse. The truth is you don't know that...you know on paper before games played there is less proven production...sure. But you don't actually know if our offense will be better or worse this season with this group compared to last year. There is a lot to say about addition by subtraction...Diggs and Davis were wildly inefficient compared to what this group has the potential to be. Shakir and Kincaid are ascending players, how do you know Shakir won't make a St. Brown like leap this year after St. Brown had a breakout the back half of his rookie year? People still doubted him like they do Shakir going into that 2nd season in terms of the likelihood he would elevate to a top tier WR and for a lot of the same reasons as Shakir too. We know Keon is not who you would have taken and you have your doubts about him, but he has been a star at camp and has legit WR1 potential despite your personal concerns about him. So you don't know what he may end up being by seasons end. Look at what Rashee Rice did last year. If Rashee Rice was in this years draft he would not have gone before Coleman and probably would have gone a round or two later. Yet he emerged as a bonafide WR1 for Mahomes and played a big role in their postseason run to a SB. Point is...no one knows what this group is. To say its worse on paper before the games are played is as meaningless as grading the draft the day after the draft. Nothing means anything until the games are played...and some of us have left room for possibility that this group may prove to be a more effective group overall for Josh and the offense while others want to commit to that not being the case before we know any answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 38 minutes ago, Mikey152 said: Younger, faster and better YAC? So that's it to you Never mind that Diggs was an actual top NFL wr...anybody younger and faster is going to be able to produce better in that role 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 Just now, FireChans said: Counterpoint: Mahomes in 2023 had his worst statistical season of his career. His offense was 15th in points scored. He posted the least total regular season wins of any season he was a starter. If that’s the kind of elevation we are gonna see in Buffalo, we are in big time trouble. Counterpoint: KC's overall WR room was light years worse than our WR room is this year. There was literally no one who should be listed anywhere higher than WR5 on that roster outside of Rice. And it is why they replaced everyone on that roster in the WR room not named Rice. Skyy, Toney, and MVS literally lost multiple football games for the Chiefs last year by being so bad at their jobs. Skyy and Toney wouldn't even make our roster this year...and MVS is doing his best to not make the roster too dropping all kinds of passes in camp, practice, and preseason games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 9 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: If anyone is a Norton, it's you. I've always pictured you as a Kramden-like blowhard anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 10 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Point is...no one knows what this group is. 6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Counterpoint: KC's overall WR room was light years worse than our WR room is this year. Like I said, it’s maddening lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 1 minute ago, FireChans said: Like I said, it’s maddening lol. It's so crazy I mean one of those guys is literally on our team now just a year older😂😂😂 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 (edited) 2 hours ago, Motorin' said: To his point though, that was with Diggs commanding double attention and having the luxury of being over looked by the defense. As far as the double teams go...this is way over exaggerated around here. How much All-22 footage have the people saying this watched to confirm his double team rate? For example, KC Chiefs safety literally stated they didn't double Diggs in our Week 14 win over KC last year. But...besides the point of how much he was really doubled, the idea that double coverage on one players turns lesser palyers into good players is just a false assumption. Yes, it helps when you have someone drawing the best coverage, but the way it is applied here is just over stated. Most teams don't take their DB and shadow a WR all over the field like so many assume. Second, Shakir plays a lot out of the slot, teams are not taking their best outside CB and moving them inside to where the NCB would be normally be playing to just shadow Shakir either. Next, this idea that no one is going to command extra attention with Diggs gone is also an inaccurate assumption. Teams still need to account for Josh as a runner, teams still need to try and counter the size and catch radius of Keon if him and Allen start to have the chemistry they are showing in camp during the season. Teams still need to account for Kincaid and Shakir if they keep ascending this season. There may not be one single guy getting doubled more often, but there will be plenty of plays where the defense will cheat extra attention to someone on this offense still. And the point of the offense is that when that happens, someone else will take advantage and get open and Josh will go there with the ball. That is really the point to the "everyone eats" philosophy they are focused on this year. 2 hours ago, Motorin' said: If Shakir can double his targets this season and keep the same level of production on his targets then he will prove himself in the conversation. If he does that, he puts himself in legit WR1 conversation the way St. Brown did in his second season after his late season breakout as a rookie. 2 hours ago, Motorin' said: I posted the Bills passing stats for their top 4 receivers in Allen's best year as the metric. How close can the "everyone feeds" mentality get to 275 receptions, 3550 yards and 22+ TD's? If the lack of a true #1 reduces the overall performance of the offense, then they won't come close. We shall see how it pans out. My guess is they will have to aggressively pursue someone that can function as a true #1 with their FA mo ey next off season. I think its highly plausible that Kincaid, Shakir, Samuel, and Keon will total similar numbers to the 3500 and 22 TD's marks you just posted. That isn't that hard to do IMHO and no one needs to break a 1000 yards either. If Shakir and Kincaid can get 1900 of that between the two, that means Samuel and Keon only need to put up 1,600 yards combined. That feels very realistic and doable and if either Shakir or Kincaid (or both) break 1,000 yards, then Samuel and Keon need even less yards to hit that target. Edited August 16 by Alphadawg7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 24 minutes ago, FireChans said: Like I said, it’s maddening lol. Wait are you actually saying that the group of Rice, Skyy, Toney, MVS is a better and more talented group than Shakir, Keon, Samuel, and Hollins? Let's do this...rather than be vague...so there is no confusion on what you are implying, just answer the question: Which WR room do you think is better and would take for your top 4? A - The 2023 Chiefs top 4 of Rice, Skyy, Toney, and MVS B - The 2024 Bills top 4 of Shakir, Keon, Samuel, and Hollins Who you taking...A or B? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 40 minutes ago, BillsVet said: I've always pictured you as a Kramden-like blowhard anyway. You definitely don't picture very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Wait are you actually saying that the group of Rice, Skyy, Toney, MVS is a better and more talented group than Shakir, Keon, Samuel, and Hollins? Let's do this...rather than be vague...so there is no confusion on what you are implying, just answer the question: Which WR room do you think is better and would take for your top 4? A - The 2023 Chiefs top 4 of Rice, Skyy, Toney, and MVS B - The 2024 Bills top 4 of Shakir, Keon, Samuel, and Hollins Who you taking...A or B? Not trying to be nit picky but why are we excluding Watson? He had more catches, yards and TDs than all of those WRs other than Rice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 47 minutes ago, FireChans said: Counterpoint: Mahomes in 2023 had his worst statistical season of his career. His offense was 15th in points scored. He posted the least total regular season wins of any season he was a starter. If that’s the kind of elevation we are gonna see in Buffalo, we are in big time trouble. Fair enough. But he still threw for over 4,000 yards and won a Super Bowl. If that's the kind of decline we are gonna see in Buffalo, I'll take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Not trying to be nit picky but why are we excluding Watson? He had more catches, yards and TDs than all of those WRs other than Rice. Fair question...that is because he wasn't one of the top 4 entering the season, I was comparing the top 4 to start our season and who they had last year. I was comparing apples to apples...like maybe MVS, Shavers or Shorter by years end winds up being 3rd or 4th in targets in the WR room, we don't really know. What we know is the top 4 guys are looking like Shakir, Keon, Samuel, and Hollins right now. So was comparing who we are entering the season with to who the Chiefs entered the season with last year as their top 4 guys. But, we can add in Watson and drop Skyy even though Skyy was a 2nd round pick and expected to be the leading WR going into last season. So the question would then be: A - Rice, Watson, MVS and Toney B - Shakir, Keon, Samuel, Hollins IMHO, doesn't change a whole lot especially given Watson has averaged just 206 yards a season for his 5 year career playing with Brady and Mahomes. Edited August 16 by Alphadawg7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 20 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Wait are you actually saying that the group of Rice, Skyy, Toney, MVS is a better and more talented group than Shakir, Keon, Samuel, and Hollins? Let's do this...rather than be vague...so there is no confusion on what you are implying, just answer the question: Which WR room do you think is better and would take for your top 4? A - The 2023 Chiefs top 4 of Rice, Skyy, Toney, and MVS B - The 2024 Bills top 4 of Shakir, Keon, Samuel, and Hollins Who you taking...A or B? You can’t say “we don’t know how any of these dude are gonna perform so it’s worthless to discuss them on paper” then “these dudes are definitely than those dudes on paper.” Pick a lane 14 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: Fair enough. But he still threw for over 4,000 yards and won a Super Bowl. If that's the kind of decline we are gonna see in Buffalo, I'll take it. He had an elite defense, like one of the better defenses in seasons and they showed up in the postseason. If we get that, sure I’m not worried about a little step back offensively. Don’t see that coming either, personally. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 Just now, FireChans said: You can’t say “we don’t know how any of these dude are gonna perform so it’s worthless to discuss them on paper” then “these dudes are definitely than those dudes on paper.” Pick a lane The only thing I was certain of was that you would not answer the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: The only thing I was certain of was that you would not answer the question. What is really funny is that you think it’s somehow never happened in NFL history that some WR groups have some rookies or new FAs or 3rd year players or new OCs. Just can’t evaluate any team’s WR groups until they are all 8 year vets and been with the same coach and the same QB and the same team. Who knew Mike Evans would be a good WR? It was impossible to tell when Tom Brady got there. Had to see it to believe it. Worthless to discuss their talent on paper. Unless you believe they are worse than the Bills on paper. Then it makes sense. Edited August 16 by FireChans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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