I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Motorin']

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I have followed what you said, and you were wrong about the narrative as literally no one has claimed they were the top 2 guys, and even the guy you were talking to had to spell that out for you.

 

Oh come on...you can't be seriously bringing up Rashee Rice now who was LITERALLY the #1 WR for the Chiefs last year and was 2nd to only Kelce in targets.  He had 102 targets to Shakirs 45, that is more than DOUBLE.  Yet Shakir had a better catch %, more YPT, more YPC as the FIFTH option...on the same amount of targets Shakir would have projected out to over 1200 yards compared to Rashees 938.  LMAO  

 

I am not taking anything out of context, you falsified a narrative, made incorrect statements about projections off it and now you want to keep trying to sell it...and all for the purpose of diminishing what they did so you can sell your bias further.  

 

To his point though, that was with Diggs commanding double attention and having the luxury of being over looked by the defense. 

 

If Shakir can double his targets this season and keep the same level of production on his targets then he will prove himself in the conversation. 

 

I posted the Bills passing stats for their top 4 receivers in Allen's best year as the metric. How close can the "everyone feeds" mentality get to 275 receptions, 3550 yards and 22+ TD's? 

 

If the lack of a true #1 reduces the overall performance of the offense, then they won't come close. We shall see how it pans out. My guess is they will have to aggressively pursue someone that can function as a true #1 with their FA mo ey next off season.

Edited August 16 by Motorin'

[SCBills]

6 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

To his point though, that was with Diggs commanding double attention and having the luxury of being over looked by the defense. 

 

If Shakir can double his targets this season and keep the same level of production on his targets then he will prove himself in the conversation. 

 

I posted the Bills passing stats for their top 4 receivers in Allen's best year as the metric. How close can the "everyone feeds" mentality get to 275 receptions, 3550 yards and 22+ TD's? 

 

If the lack of a true #1 reduces the overall performance of the offense, then they won't come close. We shall see how it pans out. My guess is they will have to aggressively pursue someone that can function as a true #1 with their FA mo ey next off season.

Did Diggs demand doubles?

 

Im pretty sure tape breakdown showed teams were playing him straight up. 
 

And furthermore, didn’t a player for another team point this out after a game and even pointed out how they know exactly what Diggs is going to do with that quick in-breaking route he likes to run?

[Einstein's Dog]

30 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Kincaid, Shakir and Coleman will all push to the intermediate range, which is Allen’s bread and butter, but who’s taking the top off?

 

Modern NFL defense has dramatically limited the number of deep shots per game, and even more so, the number of deep shots connected.   But you still need that threat. 

And I’d agree .. I don’t know what the plan is there.   1-4 our guys “can” do it, but it’s not necessarily their game.  MVS is built to do it, but has other issues and who knows if he’s even making this team.  
 

Clearly Brady is aware of this, but even with motion and a running game, if all works to plan, defenses will bring their Safeties down if they aren’t afraid we can beat them deep. 

If you have 4 intermediate threats the safeties can't come down too far.  Lets hope they are good intermediate threats though.

 

This can still be an exciting offense if these sure-handed WRs can be intermediate threats - no need for MVS, that would be a mistake IMO. 

 

 I think the plan is to unleash Josh from the get go.  Risky but exciting.  The offense will be more Josh, dual threat dependent than before.

[Alphadawg7]

11 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Why is that fine?  A talent downgrade in the middle of Josh's prime?  That's outrageous.  When they shipped Diggs out, a lot of people (myself included) thought Beane had a plan, and what we have now does not look like the result of a good plan (any plan?).

 

Most thought it was going to be a slight rebuild (I personally wasn't even on board with that at that point, I was thinking they were planning the big trade after Tre money).  But a rebuild plan that has limited WR investment?  What a terrible idea.

 

You know there is an additional $31M committed to WR than is on the field this year right?  

 

Beane does have a plan...it wasn't your plan, but he has a clear plan.  He is rebuilding the room/team and philosophy right now while clearing out cap, aging players, and bad energy.  He has this team stacked for next offseason in both cap space and draft capital to be aggressive.  This world of immediate gratification makes people lose sight about the fact that its not all about one year.

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Did Diggs demand doubles?

 

Im pretty sure tape breakdown showed teams were playing him straight up. 
 

And furthermore, didn’t a player for another team point this out after a game and even pointed out how they know exactly what Diggs is going to do with that quick in-breaking route he likes to run?

He typically drew the amount of attention commensurate w other wr1s, yes

[Avisan]

13 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

To his point though, that was with Diggs commanding double attention and having the luxury of being over looked by the defense. 

Diggs was at 5.43 yards per target on the Brady stretch of the season  and was frequently single covered.  We still targeted him more than 8 times per game, he just didn't produce.

 

People (like myself) that are not concerned saw a productive offense under Brady and view Diggs' and Davis' (poor) production as readily replaceable.  Davis had a couple of big games in that stretch but was only targeted 26 times total.

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He typically drew the amount of attention commensurate w other wr1s, yes

Did he produce commensurate with other WR1s?

[SCBills]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You know there is an additional $31M committed to WR than is on the field this year right?  

 

Beane does have a plan...it wasn't your plan, but he has a clear plan.  He is rebuilding the room/team and philosophy right now while clearing out cap, aging players, and bad energy.  He has this team stacked for next offseason in both cap space and draft capital to be aggressive.  This world of immediate gratification makes people lose sight about the fact that its not all about one year.

 

 

 

I typically agree with you, but I think frustrating (both FO & Allen) forced a hand they didn’t want to play on trading Diggs.

 

And tbh, with the roster churn at WR after 1-4, it makes no sense why he didn’t double dip in the Draft. 
 

There can be a plan, but in no world is it acceptable for that plan to be any semblance of potentially throwing away a prime year of Josh Allen.  Which I don’t think we’re doing .. but I can see why knives will come out, QUICK, if the WR’s struggle at all. 

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, Avisan said:

Diggs was at 5.43 yards per target on the Brady stretch of the season  and was frequently single covered.  We still targeted him more than 8 times per game, he just didn't produce.

 

People (like myself) that are not concerned saw a productive offense under Brady and view Diggs' and Davis' (poor) production as readily replaceable.  Davis had a couple of big games in that stretch but was only targeted 26 times total.

Did he produce commensurate with other WR1s?

No not really

Lower end 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

I typically agree with you, but I think frustrating (both FO & Allen) forced a hand they didn’t want to play on trading Diggs.

 

And tbh, with the roster churn at WR after 1-4, it makes no sense why he didn’t double dip in the Draft. 
 

There can be a plan, but in no world is it acceptable for that plan to be any semblance of potentially throwing away a prime year of Josh Allen.  Which I don’t think we’re doing .. but I can see why knives will come out, QUICK, if the WR’s struggle at all. 

 

Thats just it, I don't think Beane sees it as throwing away a prime year for Josh, nor do I.  I think Beane saw an opportunity to clear out stuff that wasn't working (a high target and demanding WR) in a year he was already forced to jettison aging high priced tenured vets and try another direction with a different approach this year.  Best case it proves to be the right direction, worst case, he sets the team up to make a major move at the position next year with cap space and draft capital to do it.    

[FireChans]

38 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Why is that fine?  A talent downgrade in the middle of Josh's prime?  That's outrageous.  When they shipped Diggs out, a lot of people (myself included) thought Beane had a plan, and what we have now does not look like the result of a good plan (any plan?).

 

Most thought it was going to be a slight rebuild (I personally wasn't even on board with that at that point, I was thinking they were planning the big trade after Tre money).  But a rebuild plan that has limited WR investment?  What a terrible idea.

It’s fine because Diggs’ days were numbered as a high-level WR, extension or no. 
 

Ultimately, this team is going to have to reset the WR room multiple times during Josh Allen’s career. Between the market forces and crazy contracts, we are not gonna see high level QB/WR combos play 12 years together probably ever again. 
 

When I say it’s fine, I don’t mean that they are without fault or blame. The Diggs extension was an obvious disaster, especially because Beane bent his own negotiation rules to make an exception to Diggs and extend him with 2 years left. But once that mistake has been made, there is no good way to rip off that bandaid.

 

Suffice it to say, even if we drafted 3 WR’s in 2024 (imo we should have drafted 2 at a minimum) the 2024 WR group would’ve still looked significantly weaker. It would still be a down year talent-wise with eyes on the future. But they may have eyes on something like a move for Metcalf prior to 2025 along with a second year Coleman and 4th year Shakir. 
 

Thats why it’s so maddening some folks won’t admit we are worse lol. It’s the bare minimum of assessing this group.

Edited August 16 by FireChans

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Thats just it, I don't think Beane sees it as throwing away a prime year for Josh, nor do I.  I think Beane saw an opportunity to clear out stuff that wasn't working (a high target and demanding WR) in a year he was already forced to jettison aging high priced tenured vets and try another direction with a different approach this year.  Best case it proves to be the right direction, worst case, he sets the team up to make a major move at the position next year with cap space and draft capital to do it.    

I agree.  Diggs may very well kill it this year in Houston, but the man either lost a step for whatever reason (age/injury) or stopped caring halfway through the season.

 

He became an unproductive black hole in this offense that “could” be addition by subtraction.. same with Gabe Davis… but it all hinges on Keon Coleman, imo … I think Shakir & Samuel will likely eat this year, but if Coleman can find a role

in this offense, I think we truly see it take off. 
 

If not, there will be justified criticism about not doing enough .. specifically when we could’ve drafted another WR early instead of Cole Bishop.. and we’ll see how he looks and maybe it was all the right decision.  TBD. 

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I absolutely love Kincaid. One of my favorite bills draft picks in a long time. I think he will have a monster year. 
 

what worries me is we have no real speed. Samuel has a fast 40 but doesn’t play like that. If you thought Gabe Davis was frustrating, just watch MVS. We have the qb with strongest arm but big passes have been missing from our offense. It would open up so many things. 

 

Pretty alarming that a few weeks into TC they're coming to the conclusion they need more outside speed.  Then again, it's not the first off-season they've had a lack of speed on offense...unless you count the short-yardage WR options they brought post Brown and Beasley.  

 

Agree that it's puzzling they're reaching this point, trying to be a team that's horizontal and not vertical when you have Josh Allen as your QB.  

 

It's almost as if they want to force Josh into becoming a semi-game manager type QB who has all these short options because throwing intermediate to deeper routes is risky.  That was harder to do with Diggs and even Davis to an extent...both were guys people expected they'd throw those routes to.  With them gone...oops...now we need to be within 10 or so yards of the LOS.   

[Mikey152]

49 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Unfortunately, true.   We hope there is a lot more production there.   There might be.  He's talented.  But if he were a 5th rounder and had done that last year we wouldn't be predicting that he's the next Kelce.   His first round pedigree is coloring a lot of the takes.  There are lots of good TE's.........but the average fan is oblivious to most of them.   If all he becomes is a good TE that's fine.   You don't pick any receiving target at the end of round 1 nowadays and expect them to become a first team All Pro just because.    

Kind if like how the fact that Shakir was a 5th rounder is causing people to hedge? 

5 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Pretty alarming that a few weeks into TC they're coming to the conclusion they need more outside speed.  Then again, it's not the first off-season they've had a lack of speed on offense...unless you count the short-yardage WR options they brought post Brown and Beasley.  

 

Agree that it's puzzling they're reaching this point, trying to be a team that's horizontal and not vertical when you have Josh Allen as your QB.  

 

It's almost as if they want to force Josh into becoming a semi-game manager type QB who has all these short options because throwing intermediate to deeper routes is risky.  That was harder to do with Diggs and even Davis to an extent...both were guys people expected they'd throw those routes to.  With them gone...oops...now we need to be within 10 or so yards of the LOS.   

They never said they needed outside speed...They lost some depth players to injury and are trying to replace them with similar players. You're reading into things that aren't there.

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I agree.  Diggs may very well kill it this year in Houston, but the man either lost a step for whatever reason (age/injury) or stopped caring halfway through the season.

 

He became an unproductive black hole in this offense that “could” be addition by subtraction.. same with Gabe Davis… but it all hinges on Keon Coleman, imo … I think Shakir & Samuel will likely eat this year, but if Coleman can find a role

in this offense, I think we truly see it take off. 
 

If not, there will be justified criticism about not doing enough .. specifically when we could’ve drafted another WR early instead of Cole Bishop.. and we’ll see how he looks and maybe it was all the right decision.  TBD. 

Can you explain how you expect Shakira/Samuel to excel in a role that Stefon Diggs couldn't last year?

[Mikey152]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Can you explain how you expect Shakira/Samuel to excel in a role that Stefon Diggs couldn't last year?

Younger, faster and better YAC?

[SCBills]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Can you explain how you expect Shakira/Samuel to excel in a role that Stefon Diggs couldn't last year?

Both are younger, faster and quicker. 
 

They are not prime Diggs.   However, Diggs was not prime Diggs.  And whatever he was last half of the season,

wasn’t even a WR1. 
 

We saw that screen to Samuel last week and there’s zero chance Diggs makes it look that easy.   But we were forced to throw him those last year to get him touches because he wasn’t beating man coverage for whatever reason. 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

What?  Samuel doesn't play like he is fast????

10.7 ypc for his career is the opposite of being any type of deep threat. Considering he was a rb in college and his use in the nfl (slot, gadget guy), it makes sense. 
 

we have solid role players (and hopefully Keon develops more into that), but we don’t have anyone who scares defenses. One of those guys would open up so many things for Josh, the RBs, and Kincaid. 

[hondo in seattle]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Just another vague rationalization.

 

That hasn't proven to be the case in his career so far.   Sherfield, Sharty, Lil' Dummy?   Or in Mahomes' career either.   MVS, Kadarius Toney, Skyy Moore.......has Mahomes elevated them?  No.  

 

 

 

Good QBs can't elevate just anybody.   And they won't elevate everyone - there aren't enough targets to go around.

But Josh has thrown for over 4,000  yards for the past four consecutive years, despite a revolving door of receivers. 

 

Mahomes has thrown for over 4,000 yards six consecutive seasons despite his own revolving door of receivers including the loss of Tyreek Hill.

 

In his prime, Brees had 12 consecutive years of 4k with a bunch of different receivers coming and going.

 

If Josh gets 4k again this year, and I think he will, someone has to catch those balls.  Between Samuel, Kincaid, and Shakir - at least one of those is going to have a career year and maybe more than one.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

Did Diggs demand doubles?

 

Im pretty sure tape breakdown showed teams were playing him straight up. 
 

And furthermore, didn’t a player for another team point this out after a game and even pointed out how they know exactly what Diggs is going to do with that quick in-breaking route he likes to run?

The Diggs hate has gone too far. Great WRs open up everything for other players. Every team game planned for Diggs. Either through coverage or drawing the best cbs. Shakir was better because he wasn’t going against too cbs. 
 

Diggs as annoying as he was is a big loss. He’s not irreplaceable but I think we are lacking a legit downfield threat (MVS, good guy, king of letting teams down). 

[Alphadawg7]

32 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I agree.  Diggs may very well kill it this year in Houston, but the man either lost a step for whatever reason (age/injury) or stopped caring halfway through the season.

 

He became an unproductive black hole in this offense that “could” be addition by subtraction.. same with Gabe Davis… but it all hinges on Keon Coleman, imo … I think Shakir & Samuel will likely eat this year, but if Coleman can find a role

in this offense, I think we truly see it take off. 
 

If not, there will be justified criticism about not doing enough .. specifically when we could’ve drafted another WR early instead of Cole Bishop.. and we’ll see how he looks and maybe it was all the right decision.  TBD. 

 

Cole Bishop is not only who I thought we would take in the 2nd, but also who I felt was someone we should take.  Safety is a big need and concern, you gotta start bringing some young talent in when you jettison your 2 long time anchors back there.  Couldn't put that off another year IMHO and there isn't a clear cut WR to take there over Bishop who IMHO was amongst the BPA at our pick.  

 

Now, whether or not we should have used one of our other picks on a WR, well that is a fair question.  Personally, there was no WR on the board I would have taken over Ray Davis or SVPG when we drafted them.  But where the real question will come from IMHO is if we should have taken a WR in the 3rd over Carter as there were guys there that would have made sense at that time.  But we also do have needs on the DL as well, so don't fault them for addressing the trenches in the 3rd as its proven time in and time again that the most important areas of the field are winning in the trenches.  

 

The Carter pick is the one pick for me that is up for debate (outside the obvious debate if Keon or a different WR should have been our first pick).