I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

Watson is awful, true.  But so is Winston. 

 

What is "completely wrong"?  That Cooper isn't a WR1?  That he isn't being doubled much?  That they are 7-2 without him?  That teams aren't gameplanning around an aging seldom used WR3/4?

 

All of it.  Cooper wasn't responsible for the Browns' passing game woes.  And teams are definitely game-planning for Cooper because he's still a top WR. 

[Kelly to Allen]

6 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

All of it.  Cooper wasn't responsible for the Browns' passing game woes.  And teams are definitely game-planning for Cooper because he's still a top WR. 

 

Cooper is still capable of destroying a team and going off for 200 yds. I loved that trade 

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Agreed at least in part. However, 2020 saw a serious reduction in offensive holding penalties and a significant jump in passing productivity. I immediately think of that pass over Fred Warner to Gabe Davis on a play action, deep slant/skinny post/dig up the left hash marks. That immaculate pocket and Allen's calm feet were a signature of that season. Many QBs seemed to enjoy similar advantageous working conditions. I think the numbers overall bear this out? (Could be wrong)

 

 

I understand that 2020 was seen as an outlier at the time but league-wide average completion % is up slightly (65.3/2024 vs 65.2/2020) and yards per attempt is the same(7.2).

 

IMO Allen has had exceptional pockets to throw from this season.   I don't think an excuse can be made that he doesn't have similar protection. 

 

In 2020 Allen was 4th in completion % and in 2024 he is 21st.  

 

And in 2020 he was #1 in success rate as a passer while in 2024 he is 10th.   That stat basically tells you how often a QB is getting what is perceived as good yardage on every down.......and that decline might be explained by his below league average completion %.

 

I think the explanation is that there was just a lot more to be had from the pocket and in-structure because they had a top 3 WR room. 

[Einstein's Dog]

On 12/20/2024 at 3:41 AM, Kirby Jackson said:

Yep, the contract situation was huge. The Bills were actively trying to get someone atop the depth chart but hands were a little tied by the cap. The structure of Cooper’s contract probably made him go for a 3 instead of a 4 or 5 but the Bills had no choice. It’s really worked out well and opened up the field.

A lot of us here were banging the drum for a top tier WR right from the start (you and I included).  For Doc to think that the Houston game made Beane come to this realization seems a cheap shot.  We all want the Bills to be Super Bowl contenders every year.  But the outset of this year with the retool and Diggs drama, there was a drastically different feel (and yes, this was in large part due to Beane's actions).   The "really lucky" part for Beane and Co this year seems to be the 4-2 start and winning the squeakers over NYJ and Miami, and the Division being an unexpectedly easy laugher.  The plan seemed to be this was going to be a second half team - get a top tier WRmid-season, get Milano back (and maybe Hyde) and make a late run to save the jobs of McBeane.

 

As for the Bills had no choice, I disagree.  Beane had several choices D Johnson (looks like would have been a terrible choice now - released by Balt), D Adams (too much a diva in my book, and expensive),  and DHop to name a few. 

 

It's possible Beane paid a little extra to outbid KC and get his choice of A Cooper (over DHop).   Jury is still out on that move - but A Cooper is younger, saying the right things so far, and the future looks bright with him in a Bills uni.

[Alphadawg7]

13 hours ago, FireChans said:

Interesting take.

 

why do you still support the trade despite his “factual production?”

 

You need a better schtick and/or hobbies

[Mr. WEO]

27 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

All of it.  Cooper wasn't responsible for the Browns' passing game woes.  And teams are definitely game-planning for Cooper because he's still a top WR. 

 

he was in 2023.  he isn't any more.  he's not even top WR on his team.

 

How much game planning will a Defense do when they see he's not being targeted?  "top WRs" aren't put out there simply as decoys.  They get targeted often--this really should be intuitively true for you.

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You need a better schtick and/or hobbies

Answer the question lol.

 

out here sarcastically calling him a savior and positing how many games he has under 10 yards.

Edited 16 hours ago by FireChans

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

I mean, saying his production is bad and has 3 games of under 10 yards and still supporting the trade is kinda interesting.

 

It’s almost like he does things outside of the stat sheet to open up the offense.

 

Puts him in a tough spot to admit that though. Otherwise, it would be a wasted 3rd round pick for bad production, right?

One can think there is more to come…. No?  Or is right now all that matters because you happened to ask the question?  
 

As far as I’m concerned, the most important part of the season is on the horizon.  I’m sure everyone with an opinion would agree.  Context sir.  In this case, yours isn’t looking at the entire picture-  only the present 

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, NewEra said:

One can think there is more to come…. No?  Or is right now all that matters because you happened to ask the question?  
 

As far as I’m concerned, the most important part of the season is on the horizon.  I’m sure everyone with an opinion would agree.  Context sir.  In this case, yours isn’t looking at the entire picture-  only the present 

He can answer himself, right?

 

Like he can say, “his production has been really bad and he has not been a savior, but maybe it gets better.” I would just be interested in his takes. 
 

Usually when folks are clowning a guys’ lack of production, they don’t think they are worth 3rd round picks for half a season rental.

 

Are you taking his messages for him? Please let him know I said Merry Christmas!

[Johnny Bravo]

 

11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah, ultimately/eventually Allen needs to be able to live in the pocket.   What they have right now is good enough to be incredible so long as he can still evade every pass rusher, make incredible strong armed throws on the run and take massive hits and bounce back up.   Or gash a defense running the ball.   The sooner he doesn't have to do that for the offense to put up 30 points, the better.   Love to get back to the trajectory he was on in 2020 when he completed nearly 70% of throws.

I don’t agree with this take.  I’ve never seen Josh HAVE to do less than he has this year.  Before this season, I’ve always been envious of other QBs who have “easy” plays.  This year Josh has had them too.  Hecan still make the amazing plays, but for the most part he hasn’t needed to.

 

The last two games Josh has been amazing.  But our offense had six games in a row prior to them where we had put up 30 points.  In none of those games did he HAVE to be Superman-he passed for 300 yards in one of those games (the Titans).

[BADOLBILZ]

53 minutes ago, Johnny Bravo said:

 

I don’t agree with this take.  I’ve never seen Josh HAVE to do less than he has this year.  Before this season, I’ve always been envious of other QBs who have “easy” plays.  This year Josh has had them too.  Hecan still make the amazing plays, but for the most part he hasn’t needed to.

 

The last two games Josh has been amazing.  But our offense had six games in a row prior to them where we had put up 30 points.  In none of those games did he HAVE to be Superman-he passed for 300 yards in one of those games (the Titans).

 

 

That's your gut perspective.   It's just not supported statistically.  I think a highlight reel of big hits taken in 2024 would look markedly more violent than 2020.  Don't you?  I mean, he took two huge shots on scramble throws in that Lions game.

 

And fwiw, the Daboll offense was actually very much about easy plays.   The passing game was deep routes and comebacks.   The comebacks couldn't have been easier throws for Josh.  There were so many of those easy-button comebacks that Diggs and Beasley were taking a beating catching the ball flat-footed with their back to the defense.   But the defense had to respect those throws in front of the sticks because the talent was there to torch any defense over the top.  Especially prior to John Brown getting injured.   Cooper is very good still but he's not close to 2020 Diggs All Pro level.  

[Rocky Landing]

The dueling stats arguments surrounding Cooper seem pretty pointless. Obviously, Cooper makes the WR better-- I don't think anyone is arguing that. IMO, his biggest impact is that he expands the field a little bit, and makes the field of play a little larger to defend.

 

What I find interesting is that Cooper, his lack of targets notwithstanding, has made the "everyone eats" scheme, where numerous receivers can be targeted on any play more effective. There were posters who felt that idea was a pipe dream, and that the addition of Cooper proved that. But I think it's been quite the opposite, and the fact that the leading receiver in the Lions game was the backup RB illustrates that. 

 

It's very hard for DCs to predict where the ball is going on any play. Brady has occasionally used the jumbo package on passing plays. Cooper will get more targets when the opposing defense makes it efficient.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

he was in 2023.  he isn't any more.  he's not even top WR on his team.

 

How much game planning will a Defense do when they see he's not being targeted?  "top WRs" aren't put out there simply as decoys.  They get targeted often--this really should be intuitively true for you.

 

Not even the top WR on the Bills?  No surprise because he joined them a third of the way into the season and was injured for several games.

 

And prior to last weekend, he was targeted plenty (over 5 times a game).  The game plan against the Lions called for him to draw coverage, which he did, and let other players "eat."  If teams want to ignore him because of the Lions game, great.

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

He can answer himself, right?

 

Like he can say, “his production has been really bad and he has not been a savior, but maybe it gets better.” I would just be interested in his takes. 
 

Usually when folks are clowning a guys’ lack of production, they don’t think they are worth 3rd round picks for half a season rental.

 

Are you taking his messages for him? Please let him know I said Merry Christmas!

It’s common sense.  
 

it didn’t seem to me that he was “clowning” on him, rather downplaying him being the lord and savior 

Edited 12 hours ago by NewEra

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Not even the top WR on the Bills?  No surprise because he joined them a third of the way into the season and was injured for several games.

 

And prior to last weekend, he was targeted plenty (over 5 times a game).  The game plan against the Lions called for him to draw coverage, which he did, and let other players "eat."  If teams want to ignore him because of the Lions game, great.

he wasn’t WR2 or 3 on the Bills. 
 

WRs draw coverage on each play. So what? 
 

it’s pretty simple.. “top WRs” are not used mostly as decoys.  Everyone was eating before he rolled in.

 

 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

he wasn’t WR2 or 3 on the Bills. 
 

WRs draw coverage on each play. So what? 
 

it’s pretty simple.. “top WRs” are not used mostly as decoys.  Everyone was eating before he rolled in.

 

Look, I get that you don't like that Beane brought in a top WR like Cooper.  Someone who you should otherwise love considering he's a great player, not a diva and not a criminal.  And in the Bills' case, incredibly cheap.  So you invent something else. 

 

He's a huge addition to the team.  And he hasn't even reached his full potential in the offense yet.

[Sharky7337]

How this historically bad take made it to 160 pages lol

 

Next up - I'm quietly starting to think our pass rush got better re-signing epinesa?

[BearNorth]

Any regrets after watching Worthy today?

[Maine-iac]

55 minutes ago, BearNorth said:

Any regrets after watching Worthy today?

None.  Coleman missed several games and if he does anything this weekend at all he'll still be par with Worthy stat wise.

[NewEra]

58 minutes ago, BearNorth said:

Any regrets after watching Worthy today?

Never