I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The key addition doesn't have to be the "only reason".

 

Quality at premium positions = difference makers.

 

If you throw Myles Garrett or Dexter Lawrence onto the Bills DL the synergy created would have TSW'ers wringing their hands about not having AJ Epenesa and Daquan Jones signed for a longer term.

 

Go back and look at posts from the offseason and you will see that it was assumed that any offense with a prime Josh Allen was going to be a top 10 offense.  

 

The goal here was never to be "top 10".    It's to be #1.   Especially for those of us who don't trust a Bills defense in the playoffs.

 

If the Bills had Amari Cooper from day 1 they would probably be the #1 seed right now.

 

And might be challenging for the highest points per game scored in a season.   It's always been my contention that it could and should happen during Josh Allen's prime.  A 38 ppg season.

 

 

I agree.  I’ve always said that our WR unit wasn’t great to start the season and that cooper makes us better.  I knew he’d help open up the offense. I just didn’t think out WR unit was as bad as some made it out to be.  
 

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

7 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I agree.  I’ve always said that our WR unit wasn’t great to start the season and that cooper makes us better.  I knew he’d help open up the offense. I just didn’t think out WR unit was as bad as some made it out to be.  
 

 

 

I guess that the question to that is were they as bad as some of us thought? The backs and TEs were always okay. The WRs were not good though. The passing game was shut down and they traded for a number 1. The numbers in the games that he’s played have been substantially better. Now the WRs are an average unit and the backs & tes are above average as receivers. The OL is top 5. The QB is otherworldly. The OC has been sensational. The offense has been excellent. That doesn’t mean that the wide receivers are/or have been good. They’ve been fine.

[Mikey152]

26 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I guess that the question to that is were they as bad as some of us thought? The backs and TEs were always okay. The WRs were not good though. The passing game was shut down and they traded for a number 1. The numbers in the games that he’s played have been substantially better. Now the WRs are an average unit and the backs & tes are above average as receivers. The OL is top 5. The QB is otherworldly. The OC has been sensational. The offense has been excellent. That doesn’t mean that the wide receivers are/or have been good. They’ve been fine.

Serious question...

 

Lets say you're right, and despite his limited snaps and targets, Cooper is having an impact on the passing game indirectly. Why was he 4th in snaps at WR the last two weeks, if he is truly a #1 WR and that impactful? What other #1 is 4th in snaps on their team?

 

And what about the reverse? Do you not think that Hollins and Coleman are having similar impacts on the running game and Josh's efficiency?  There is a reason they get more snaps than Cooper, and it isn't because they are better at getting open. If the only thing that mattered was the ability to get open, teams would play 5 WR most of the time. Of course that is ludicris, but so is the idea that WR only help the offense when they draw coverage or catch passes. 

 

I watched the Ravens game and the Houston game. The main reason the offense looked bad wasn't WR, it was offensive line. There were free rushers on A LOT of plays. Josh was sacked 3 times and pressured on almost half his drop backs against the Ravens, and it wasn't because he was holding on to the ball because nobody was open. There was clear miscommunication up front. Houston game was similar, and Josh forced things and played his worst game this season. 

 

The Bills did make a good move grabbing Cooper. It is clear that Samuel wasn't who they or I thought he would be this season against man.

 

 

Edited Friday at 07:44 PM by Mikey152

[NoSaint]

25 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I guess that the question to that is were they as bad as some of us thought? The backs and TEs were always okay. The WRs were not good though. The passing game was shut down and they traded for a number 1. The numbers in the games that he’s played have been substantially better. Now the WRs are an average unit and the backs & tes are above average as receivers. The OL is top 5. The QB is otherworldly. The OC has been sensational. The offense has been excellent. That doesn’t mean that the wide receivers are/or have been good. They’ve been fine.

For a stacked up offense they went from a dealbreaker to not a dealbreaker.

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

The WRs have been really good, the ball is just spread around so the big games aren't there.

 

Shakir has been great. Coleman and Cooper have been clutch. Hollins has played great.

 

[BillsVet]

On 12/19/2024 at 12:53 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

Well Cooper missed the Colts game and they only scored 23 points on offense.  That definitely lines up.  

 

Were there other contributing factors to the offense being truly atrocious in Baltimore and Houston?   Sure.  

 

But what we are seeing now wasn't happening without the trade for WR1.   People are just questioning it because some weeks they aren't throwing the ball at Cooper. 

 

And just in the context of this thread title,  now 14 games into this season the WR corps as a whole hasn't matched last year's per game production despite the uptick since Cooper arrived.  

 

It's a non-argument, IMO......... but I am glad I can say that because it means what they have NOW is working. 

 

It's amazing that people are quick to credit McBeane for the Cooper trade and practically ignore the lead-up to that, namely the costs involved.  

 

They spent an entire off-season preaching their "everybody eats" strategery only to change course after 5 games when Josh had been battered and they were blown out once and lost a winnable game at Houston.  Yeah, they corrected themselves but only after it was abundantly obvious their plan failed miserably.  

 

The expectation of good management is to anticipate problems before they arrive...and it shouldn't have been hard to anticipate in the post-Diggs Bills last April that WR was a huge weakness.  That insistence on stupid is why they're 2 games back of the #1 seed when they should be 1.  Also meant the guy who is keeping you from being a 6 win team took some huge hits.   

 

Still amazes me that, after 8 off-seasons the Bills have not drafted a 1,000 yard receiver, WR or TE.  Perhaps that changes next year, but it's further indictment that they don't value pass-catchers or know how to scout them.  

 

[Kirby Jackson]

14 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Serious question...

 

Lets say you're right, and despite his limited snaps and targets, Cooper is having an impact on the passing game indirectly. Why was he 4th in snaps at WR the last two weeks, if he is truly a #1 WR and that impactful? What other #1 is 4th in snaps on their team?

 

And what about the reverse? Do you not think that Hollins and Coleman are having similar impacts on the running game and Josh's efficiency?  There is a reason they get more snaps than Cooper, and it isn't because they are better at getting open. If the only thing that mattered was the ability to get open, teams would play 5 WR most of the time. Of course that is ludicris, but so is the idea that WR only help the offense when they draw coverage or catch passes. 

 

I watched the Ravens game and the Houston game. The main reason the offense looked bad wasn't WR, it was offensive line. There were free rushers on A LOT of plays. Josh was sacked 3 times and pressured on almost half his drop backs against the Ravens, and it wasn't because he was holding on to the ball because nobody was open. There was clear miscommunication up front. Houston game was similar, and Josh forced things and played his worst game this season. 

 

The Bills did make a good move grabbing Cooper. It is clear that Samuel wasn't who they or I thought he would be this season against man.

 

 

I’m not a coach. I assume that they want Hollins and Coleman out there to block. The one thing that can’t be argued are the passing numbers in games with Cooper vs. without. They are posted throughout the last couple of pages. There is no opinion there. Those are facts. The passing game, scoring, and record, despite playing much better teams, have all been superior in the games where Cooper has played. I don’t disagree with facts. 
 

The Houston game the passing attack was atrocious. The Ravens just jammed the middle of the field and dared the Bills to win on the boundary. They said as much. The Bills adjusted and got Cooper. He’s won outside for years. Since that point, it has unlocked a different level on the offense (again check the numbers on the last few pages). People looking at his stats without looking at the offensive stats in those games are choosing to do so to make them more right about the WR group. They are still just average and they were well below average prior to Amari. 
 

Samuel hasn’t played well but he’s the guy that they thought he was. He has always been a gadget guy. As an Ohio State fan, I tried to tell that to everyone. Some tried to say, “no he is a wide receiver.” He still has a role here but his skill set was redundant with Shakir.

[FireChans]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m not a coach. I assume that they want Hollins and Coleman out there to block. The one thing that can’t be argued are the passing numbers in games with Cooper vs. without. They are posted throughout the last couple of pages. There is no opinion there. Those are facts. The passing game, scoring, and record, despite playing much better teams, have all been superior in the games where Cooper has played. I don’t disagree with facts. 
 

The Houston game the passing attack was atrocious. The Ravens just jammed the middle of the field and dared the Bills to win on the boundary. They said as much. The Bills adjusted and got Cooper. He’s won outside for years. Since that point, it has unlocked a different level on the offense (again check the numbers on the last few pages). People looking at his stats without looking at the offensive stats in those games are choosing to do so to make them more right about the WR group. They are still just average and they were well below average prior to Amari. 
 

Samuel hasn’t played well but he’s the guy that they thought he was. He has always been a gadget guy. As an Ohio State fan, I tried to tell that to everyone. Some tried to say, “no he is a wide receiver.” He still has a role here but his skill set was redundant with Shakir.

It's also factual that despite Amari's lower snap count, he has been the 2nd most targeted WR on the team over the last two weeks.  He has 1 target less than the #1. 

 

The next closest WR to him in targets is Mack Hollins who has 5 less.

 

He's doing that with an injured wrist on a reduced snap count.

[Mikey152]

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m not a coach. I assume that they want Hollins and Coleman out there to block. The one thing that can’t be argued are the passing numbers in games with Cooper vs. without. They are posted throughout the last couple of pages. There is no opinion there. Those are facts. The passing game, scoring, and record, despite playing much better teams, have all been superior in the games where Cooper has played. I don’t disagree with facts. 
 

The Houston game the passing attack was atrocious. The Ravens just jammed the middle of the field and dared the Bills to win on the boundary. They said as much. The Bills adjusted and got Cooper. He’s won outside for years. Since that point, it has unlocked a different level on the offense (again check the numbers on the last few pages). People looking at his stats without looking at the offensive stats in those games are choosing to do so to make them more right about the WR group. They are still just average and they were well below average prior to Amari. 
 

Samuel hasn’t played well but he’s the guy that they thought he was. He has always been a gadget guy. As an Ohio State fan, I tried to tell that to everyone. Some tried to say, “no he is a wide receiver.” He still has a role here but his skill set was redundant with Shakir.

Cooper has played in 6 games...They have scored 30 in 11. 

 

Amari Cooper has outsnapped Mack Hollins in one game since he became a Bill...Week 8. That also happens to be the week Curtis Samuel missed. He was supposed to be their man beater, but for whatever reason it has failed, so they brought in a replacement.

 

Is it good that with Cooper, the Bills have a guy that can win 1 on 1?  Sure. That is a valuable skill and makes their offense harder to play against. But it isn't THE REASON it is hard to play against...if it was, Cooper would get way more snaps and targets. Cooper keeps teams honest, he doesn't make it go. 

 

Clearly I was wrong when I thought the Bills had a guy like that on the roster in MVS/Claypool/Samuel. They all failed to be that guy and I am glad Amari is on the team. But lets not get it twisted...he is an important piece, but not as important as the other pieces.

[Mikey152]

25 minutes ago, FireChans said:

It's also factual that despite Amari's lower snap count, he has been the 2nd most targeted WR on the team over the last two weeks.  He has 1 target less than the #1. 

 

The next closest WR to him in targets is Mack Hollins who has 5 less.

 

He's doing that with an injured wrist on a reduced snap count.

How's this for a stat...

 

The Bills have won every game where Khalil Shakir led the team in targets, and they have scored 30 in every game where he was first or second in targets (whole team, not just WR).

 

The Bills have lost every game where Amari Cooper led the team in targets. They scored 30 nine times when he wasn't first or second in targets.

Edited Friday at 08:29 PM by Mikey152

[Kirby Jackson]

6 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

How's this for a stat...

 

The Bills have won every game where Khalil Shakir led the team in targets, and they have scored 30 in every game where he was first or second in targets (whole team, not just WR).

 

The Bills have lost every game where Amari Cooper led the team in targets. They scored 30 nine times when he wasn't first or second in targets.

Let’s look at the facts:

 

The Bills have averaged 37 PPG in the games that Cooper has played for them. They’ve averaged 28 PPG in the games that he didn’t.  They averaged 204 passing yards per game in the 8 games without Cooper in the lineup and 286 passing yards per game in the 6 games with Cooper. Allen has thrown 12 TDs in the 6 games with Cooper and 13 TDs in the 8 games without him. 
 

* Also the teams that Cooper played against are 50 - 34 (.595 win %). The games that he didn’t those teams have a record of 50 - 62 (.446 win %). I’m not sure how e can look at these concrete facts or the EPA from @GoBills808 and  try to form a different conclusion? The facts say that the passing game, scoring and winning are all way better in Cooper games despite playing superior teams.

 

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

How's this for a stat...

 

The Bills have won every game where Khalil Shakir led the team in targets, and they have scored 30 in every game where he was first or second in targets (whole team, not just WR).

 

The Bills have lost every game where Amari Cooper led the team in targets. They scored 30 nine times when he wasn't first or second in targets.

That's true. I have some counter facts though!

 

Since trading for Amari, Shakir is averaging 8.375 targets per game.

 

Prior to trading for Amari, Shakir was averaging 4.2 targets per game.

 

Factually, we know that Shakir targets correlate with winning.

 

We also know that trading for Amari correlated with with an increase in Shakir targets.

 

Ergo.....

Edited Friday at 08:38 PM by FireChans

[Mikey152]

9 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Let’s look at the facts:

 

The Bills have averaged 37 PPG in the games that Cooper has played for them. They’ve averaged 28 PPG in the games that he didn’t.  They averaged 204 passing yards per game in the 8 games without Cooper in the lineup and 286 passing yards per game in the 6 games with Cooper. Allen has thrown 12 TDs in the 6 games with Cooper and 13 TDs in the 8 games without him. 
 

* Also the teams that Cooper played against are 50 - 34 (.595 win %). The games that he didn’t those teams have a record of 50 - 62 (.446 win %). I’m not sure how e can look at these concrete facts or the EPA from @GoBills808 and  try to form a different conclusion? The facts say that the passing game, scoring and winning are all way better in Cooper games despite playing superior teams.

 

I think we are arguing different things. 

 

they can be deeper than last year without Cooper and better this year with him...those two things aren't mutually exclusive. I have definitely never said Amari Cooper makes us worse. Clearly he helps. But he isn't the #1 receiver on this team. He plays a role, and one that they clearly had a gap at thanks to the epic fail that was Curtis Samuel so far this season. I really hope it is his injuries. 

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

I think we are arguing different things. 

 

they can be deeper than last year without Cooper and better this year with him...those two things aren't mutually exclusive. I have definitely never said Amari Cooper makes us worse. Clearly he helps. But he isn't the #1 receiver on this team. He plays a role, and one that they clearly had a gap at thanks to the epic fail that was Curtis Samuel so far this season. I really hope it is his injuries. 

 

 

Fair

 

The original point was that the “WRs quietly got better.” They didn’t. I am on record that they were a bottom 3 group prior to the Cooper deal. I’m not sure that was wrong. They were too limited. One player, at the top of the depth chart, changed the entire room. He may not end up as the most targeted but on 3rd and 7 when someone needs to “go win” it’s going to be Cooper that they look to. That’s a part of his value. It isn’t about volume. It’s about the ability to change team’s game plans and to open up space for everyone else. It has worked. 

[Mikey152]

11 minutes ago, FireChans said:

That's true. I have some counter facts though!

 

Since trading for Amari, Shakir is averaging 8.375 targets per game.

 

Prior to trading for Amari, Shakir was averaging 4.2 targets per game.

 

Factually, we know that Shakir targets correlate with winning.

 

We also know that trading for Amari correlated with with an increase in Shakir targets.

 

Ergo.....

Yes, indirect correlation...I get it, and I even agree. His presence keeps teams honest and lets Shakir operate against more zone coverage. That was likely Samuel's role and why most of Amari's snaps correlate to CS and not Keon, Mack or Khalil.

 

The reason I find it amusing isn't because I think you are wrong...it's because that was the same argument for why guys like Mack Hollins are more valuable than their stats. The key is balance. 

[Mikey152]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Fair

 

The original point was that the “WRs quietly got better.” They didn’t. I am on record that they were a bottom 3 group prior to the Cooper deal. I’m not sure that was wrong. They were too limited. One player, at the top of the depth chart, changed the entire room. He may not end up as the most targeted but on 3rd and 7 when someone needs to “go win” it’s going to be Cooper that they look to. That’s a part of his value. It isn’t about volume. It’s about the ability to change team’s game plans and to open up space for everyone else. It has worked. 

I sort of a agree and sort of don't.

 

I do think that Cooper plays an important role on the team, and raises the floor. But I don't think he is the go to guy on this offense. I'm not even sure he is the second or third guy. But that's just it...that don't really play like that anymore. All 5 skill guys are that guy in the right circumstances, and that's what makes them hard to defend.

 

 

[GoBills808]

32 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Let’s look at the facts:

 

The Bills have averaged 37 PPG in the games that Cooper has played for them. They’ve averaged 28 PPG in the games that he didn’t.  They averaged 204 passing yards per game in the 8 games without Cooper in the lineup and 286 passing yards per game in the 6 games with Cooper. Allen has thrown 12 TDs in the 6 games with Cooper and 13 TDs in the 8 games without him. 
 

* Also the teams that Cooper played against are 50 - 34 (.595 win %). The games that he didn’t those teams have a record of 50 - 62 (.446 win %). I’m not sure how e can look at these concrete facts or the EPA from @GoBills808 and  try to form a different conclusion? The facts say that the passing game, scoring and winning are all way better in Cooper games despite playing superior teams.

 

I mean I realize folks are slow to come off bad takes but I honestly did not expect this to be bumped😂😂as far as I'm concerned this was settled once they made the move for Cooper

 

Guess recency bias is a factor here...yes Allen has been incandescent but sorry no the offense has not always looked like this

[Kirby Jackson]

15 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

I sort of a agree and sort of don't.

 

I do think that Cooper plays an important role on the team, and raises the floor. But I don't think he is the go to guy on this offense. I'm not even sure he is the second or third guy. But that's just it...that don't really play like that anymore. All 5 skill guys are that guy in the right circumstances, and that's what makes them hard to defend.

 

 

It certainly works that everyone can make plays. That’s what they want. I’m suggesting 3rd and 8, down 5, late to KC, Amari is the first look. That’s because he is most likely to “win” his rep. For years he’s been an elite route runner. Shakir finds space as does Kincaid. They will be the next looks if Allen doesn’t take off. 

[Mikey152]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I mean I realize folks are slow to come off bad takes but I honestly did not expect this to be bumped😂😂as far as I'm concerned this was settled once they made the move for Cooper

 

Guess recency bias is a factor here...yes Allen has been incandescent but sorry no the offense has not always looked like this

Cooper was an indictment on Samuel and MVS, to a lesser extent..not the WR room or offensive philosophy.

 

I think this would have been a very different thread if someone had said "This offense could work, but they're really gonna struggle against pressure man looks because CS and MVS aren't good enough there and Coleman is too young"

 

Instead, most of what we saw in this thread was you need a #1 WR that gets 100 targets and 1000 yards to be successful. 

[K D]

Diontae Johnson anyone? Dude seems hungry to make an impact on a contender. Flyer on OBJ? I hate how KC ends up grabbing all of these guys for cheap.