I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Alphadawg7]

17 hours ago, NewEra said:

You contended my contention of your boy @BullBuchanan’s statement regarding this being the worst WR unit in the last 40 years.  You even backed the 2017/18 units over this unit.  
 

You also said that Samuel was a great pickup and have wanted us to add him for years.  I did too.  
 

yes cooper has transformed us-  we wouldn’t be this good without him.  But one must consider that Josh had to get used to all these new and different weapons.  Teams don’t just gel 💯 in training camp and preseason.  They need time.  Keon needed time. Hollins needed time. Samuel needed time.  Shakir needed time playing as the biggest threat to the opposition. 
 

yes, we did need cooper, but we also needed time. Both factors have helped our offense become what it has. 

 

This offense has become RB centric-  they are a huge part of pass offense.  The downfield pass offense, which I had stated. 
 

Kincaid hasn’t been what I had thought he would be.  Some of that is on Brady Some of that is on Josh.  Some of that is on Kincaid. 
 

I did say Hollins would be better than you all think and his run blocking would be a key part of our offense. It has been in a big way.  

 

He said a lot of things that were wrong (including insisting Samuel would be a our #1 WR).  Bottom line...none of the doom and gloom projected all offseason around here was accurate.

 

Meanwhile, people like us had more optimistic views of the changes, Brady inserting his full system, the new everybody eats philosophy, liked the Coleman pick, thought Hollins would have a role here, and the addition by subtraction with Diggs and Davis gone kept insisting that the offense not only wouldn't fall off, but could be better and be Josh Allens best season of his career.  All of which was much more accurate than any of the doom and gloom negative narratives that were being shoved down everyones throats about Coleman, Allen, the talent, firing Beane, the receivers, the OL, Brady, not winning the division, missing the playoffs, etc.  

 

But...But...But...they traded mid season for a "savior" WR who is averaging 38 yards per game and has 3 games of 0 yards, 5, yards, and 10 yards in his 6 games here...some of which Coleman was out hurt and still no production from him.  That somehow validates everything else they were wrong about and they are trying to take victory laps still lol.

 

Nobody got everything right on either side of this discussion, especially given this discussion went often past just the "receivers" plenty of times.  But those who felt more optimistic about this season, the offense, etc got a lot more right than wrong compared to those who spent the offseason in negativeville and melt down mode.  Some of the people trying dance about this topic wanted Dorsey over Brady, Beane fired, Hollins cut, any other WR other than Coleman, thought Shakir would decline, etc. 

 

But I do find those attempting to wash themselves in the spin cycle entertaining lol

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

18 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m only speaking for my strong opinion on the topic. I said that it was a bottom 3 WR room with a ceiling of like 22. If we look at it objectively, that may not be far off (at least prior to Cooper). Shakir has become a high end slot. Samuel has been a disaster. Mack has been a good blocker and made some tough catches. He’s a 4 at best. Coleman has been just a guy. It isn’t different than anyone expected. The only thing that is surprising is a negative and that’s Samuel’s contributions. Lol, only Shakir had more than 1 catch last week!!

 

No disrespect bud, but I said this to you before the season began and even I believe earlier during the season...that you can't hold on to your bias over stats in an offense that is literally built and designed so that there are no pass catchers with gaudy stats.  

 

We are arguably the best offense in the NFL and we are statistically first or 2nd in many categories...this obsession of where the WR group stats statistically rank is as meaningless as where someone was drafted once they get on the field.  

 

This offense is designed for the ball to go anywhere...there will be games where we are run dominant, there will be games where we are pass heavy, the leading receiver each week could be a WR, TE, or RB.  That is the point of it, so to grade the group on stats has no value what so ever when its not made to produce big stats for individuals.  Look at Shakir...put him on a team where he gets more volume like the Rams he would be a 1400 receiver this year.  But here, he just isn't going to get those kinds of targets because that is not the philosophy of our offense.

 

Samuel I give you has been a surprise to almost everyone, both sides thought he would be more involved than he is given he is barely involved at all.

 

18 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

Josh has just been a different level of elite. I’d add the OL to the conversation as well. They’ve been excellent. Josh has had CRAZY time to make plays. Even average NFL receivers can find space if they have 4+ seconds.

 

The offense has worked because of Josh, Brady and the OL. The backs are pretty good as well. That was the plan and it is working. The offense being elite doesn’t mean that this WR group is. 

 

I called this before the season began...I stated that what happens when Josh Allen has his best season?  I said those who were carrying all this negativity would just flip the script and give Josh and/or Brady all the credit.  

 

Again, I mean no disrespect...but what you just wrote here GREATLY devalues the plays the guys on the field are making to help Allen.  I mean even in the Detroit game there were some very tough and big catches made that were not very accurately thrown balls that Ty, Knox, and others made that kept drives alive.  I love Allen as much or more than just about anyone, but to say its all him, Brady and the OL is just flat out inaccurate.  Guys have been making big plays all year for Allen and this offense both catching and running the ball.  His season is as good as it is because when guys get the opportunities they are making the plays.  

 

 

[GASabresIUFan]

40 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Not the longest but one of the most unimportant for its length.

 

Bills WRs currently has 2008 yards with 14 TDs.

Chiefs WRs currently have 1698 yards with 13 TDs.  Worthy leads that team with 494 yards.

Ja'Marr Chase has 1413 yards and won't see the playoffs. 

 

The combined records of these number 1 and 2 seeded AFC teams are 24-4.

The whole premise about needing "elite" WRs is debunked.

Teams win football games, not stats.

FWIW.

Talk about cynical.  
 

While good teams may not need an elite WR, they good need an above average group and the Bills have that.  
 

The Chase example is a bit disingenuous.  Other elite WRs are making the playoffs on some the best teams like Jefferson for example or Nico Collins or St Brown etc..   The key is not force feeding these players and having a variety of other complimentary weapons.  Det has two excellent RBs to go with St Brown.  Minnesota has Hockenson, Jones and Addison to complement Jefferson.  
 

The Bills and GB do it with a large menu of targets.  

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFan said:

Talk about cynical.  
 

While good teams may not need an elite WR, they good need an above average group and the Bills have that.  
 

The Chase example is a bit disingenuous.  Other elite WRs are making the playoffs on some the best teams like Jefferson for example or Nico Collins or St Brown etc..   The key is not force feeding these players and having a variety of other complimentary weapons.  Det has two excellent RBs to go with St Brown.  Minnesota has Hockenson, Jones and Addison to complement Jefferson.  
 

The Bills and GB do it with a large menu of targets.  

 

I think you missed the part where in this thread people said that you had to have a dominant WR1.  That is the point he was saying has been debunked.  And those same people are claiming Cooper proves that, yet Cooper is averaging 38 yards per game and has 3 games with 0 yards, 5, yards and 10 yards.  They might as well dig up the old Sammy Watkins decoy arguments then too.  

[Kelly to Allen]

Keon Coleman catching bombs in the playoffs has got to be terrifying for dcs

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Headline in article in Buffalo News:

 

Bills notebook: Amari Cooper 'waiting (his) whole life to be on a team like this'

 

Couple quotes from article:

 

“It’s absolutely amazing,” Cooper told The Buffalo News. “Honestly, I’ve been waiting my whole life to be on a team like this.”

 

“Obviously, I’m a receiver,” Cooper said. “Every receiver wants the ball. But, I mean, I’m in Year 10. And so, what’s most important to me is winning. And so, I think we definitely have the formula.

 

“So, I think it’s actually kind of cool, like going from 14 targets to zero targets, and we win, we beat a great team, actually a potential matchup down the road"

 

“But we are part of a team to where guys go down, and the offense is still putting up 40, 50 points. That’s truly a team that has a chance.”

 

I'm sure Diggs would say the same!

[FireChans]

12 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

And therefore, the counter posts of that opinion don't mean anything either when it comes to winning football games.

But you guys keep the "debate" going, LOL.

It means they didn’t quietly get better. They loudly got worse, which is why the GM traded a 3rd round pick for a WR in October.

 

I guess Beano was wrong. WR’s don’t win championships or something. Dumb trade?

[GunnerBill]

12 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I think you missed the part where in this thread people said that you had to have a dominant WR1.  That is the point he was saying has been debunked.  And those same people are claiming Cooper proves that, yet Cooper is averaging 38 yards per game and has 3 games with 0 yards, 5, yards and 10 yards.  They might as well dig up the old Sammy Watkins decoy arguments then too.  

 

I don't think it's fair to type case everyone as saying you had to have a dominant #1. Some of us were saying you have to have a viable separator on the outside and that guy wasn't MVS, Hollins or Coleman (or Samuel as one or two wanted to argue). 

 

Cooper to me was never about having big stats. It was about making teams genuinely defend the outside. Roquan Smith himself said it after the Ravens game. Their entire gameplan was to give the Bills the outside and take away the middle of the field. Once that was out there on film the Bills weaknesses were laid bare. They had to address it. 

 

That was my concern pre-season. You cannot win in this league without a legitimate separator outside. That guy doesn't have to be a dominant #1 like peak Diggs. That guy doesn't even have to be your #1 receiver. He doesn't have to be a volume guy at all. But he does have to exist to make defenses defend the entire field against you.

 

If the Bills saw the Ravens again they couldn't run the same scheme they did last time or Cooper would have a stat line like the Rams game where he had around 100 yards. And if they come out of that defense to account for Cooper then the backs, tight ends and Shakir have room to operate. 

[Kirby Jackson]

15 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I think you missed the part where in this thread people said that you had to have a dominant WR1.  That is the point he was saying has been debunked.  And those same people are claiming Cooper proves that, yet Cooper is averaging 38 yards per game and has 3 games with 0 yards, 5, yards and 10 yards.  They might as well dig up the old Sammy Watkins decoy arguments then too.  

I’ve said that you needed a number 1 and still believe that. I think Beane believes that. That’s why he parted with a 3rd round pick. Cooper was targeted 14 times 2 weeks ago. The attention that he receives opens things up for others. When it’s 3rd down and they need someone to “go win their matchup” it’s him that they are looking to. Beane didn’t believe that the room “quietly got better.”
 

Beane made an aggressive move to get someone that can consistently win on the boundary. That was lacking. That added dimension has opened up the offense. Whether people want to believe it or not the numbers support it. The Bills have averaged 37 PPG in the games that Cooper has played for them. They’ve averaged 28 PPG in the games that he didn’t.  They averaged 204 passing yards per game in the 8 games without Cooper in the lineup and 286 passing yards per game in the 6 games with Cooper. Allen has thrown 12 TDs in the 6 games with Cooper and 13 TDs in the 8 games without him. 
 

* Also the teams that Cooper played against are 50 - 34 (.595 win %). The games that he didn’t those teams have a record of 50 - 62 (.446 win %).

Edited Friday at 10:40 AM by Kirby Jackson

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’ve said that you needed a number 1 and still believe that. I think Beane believes that. That’s why he parted with a 3rd round pick. Cooper was targeted 14 times 2 weeks ago. The attention that he receives opens things up for others. When it’s 3rd down and they need someone to “go win their matchup” it’s him that they are looking to. Beane didn’t believe that the room “quietly got better.”
 

Beane made an aggressive move to get someone that can consistently win on the boundary. That was lacking. That added dimension has opened up the offense. Whether people want to believe it or not the numbers support it. The Bills have averaged 37 PPG in the games that Cooper has played for them. They’ve averaged 28 PPG in the games that he didn’t.  They averaged 204 passing yards per game in the 8 games without Cooper in the lineup and 286 passing yards per game in the 6 games with Cooper. Allen has thrown 12 TDs in the 6 games with Cooper and 13 TDs in the 8 games without him. 

 

Yea they are, without question, a better offense with Coop than without him. He makes teams defend the entire field against us. It is that simple. 

[Doc Brown]

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’ve said that you needed a number 1 and still believe that. I think Beane believes that. That’s why he parted with a 3rd round pick. Cooper was targeted 14 times 2 weeks ago. The attention that he receives opens things up for others. When it’s 3rd down and they need someone to “go win their matchup” it’s him that they are looking to. Beane didn’t believe that the room “quietly got better.”
 

Beane made an aggressive move to get someone that can consistently win on the boundary. That was lacking. That added dimension has opened up the offense. Whether people want to believe it or not the numbers support it. The Bills have averaged 37 PPG in the games that Cooper has played for them. They’ve averaged 28 PPG in the games that he didn’t.  They averaged 204 passing yards per game in the 8 games without Cooper in the lineup and 286 passing yards per game in the 6 games with Cooper. Allen has thrown 12 TDs in the 6 games with Cooper and 13 TDs in the 8 games without him. 

Beane got really lucky Cooper was available for that salary because he knows he screwed up after watching the Texans game.  I thought it was malpractice up to that point of not having an outside WR who can create separation at this point in Allen's career where every year should be a Super Bowl contender.

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, Doc Brown said:

Beane got really lucky Cooper was available for that salary because he knows he screwed up after watching the Texans game.  I thought it was malpractice up to that point of not having an outside WR who can create separation at this point in Allen's career where every year should be a Super Bowl contender.

Yep, the contract situation was huge. The Bills were actively trying to get someone atop the depth chart but hands were a little tied by the cap. The structure of Cooper’s contract probably made him go for a 3 instead of a 4 or 5 but the Bills had no choice. It’s really worked out well and opened up the field.

[NewEra]

18 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Did you just downplay the Houston game as Allen's "worst game in awhile". 

 

He was the first NFL QB to throw 30 passes in a game and complete 30% or less since 1992! (Stan Gelbaugh)

 

It was a historically atrocious passing performance for the Bills. 

 

The blueprint was laid out for the entire league to see.   Challenge the Bills to throw deep and take away the middle of the field.

 

We knew this at the time of the Cooper trade.   Even the "everybody eats" crowd had to admit it.

 

But now they are trying to reverse engineer the solution.   The threat of RB's getting open deep isn't keeping defense's honest, dude.😂

 

 

 

That’s what you quoted?  lol.  My bad- it was one of the worst QB performances ever-  for sure.  If he hits an open Mack Hollins, we likely win that game.  If he hits an open Mack Hollins vs the rams, we likely win that game.  The 3 games prior to Baltimore we scored 34, 31, 47.  Every was eating. Then they didn’t for two games- 1.75 of which our best WR was injured.  So Baltimore and Houston just so happen to be proof of something.  

Meanwhile-  we’re one of 4 offenses in the last 24 years to average 3 points per drive.  07 pats, 18 chiefs and 20 packers.  
Amari cooper must be REALLYy good for him to make that kind of an impact on the teams worst WR unit in the last 40 years.  

Jordan Matthews 🤣 

 

and to refresh your memory again-  I always said that this years WR unit is worse than last year.  My only horse in this thread was that your boys comment was one of the dumbest I’d ever seen.  And you defended it.  

 

 

Edited Friday at 11:37 AM by NewEra

[FireChans]

18 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I think you missed the part where in this thread people said that you had to have a dominant WR1.  That is the point he was saying has been debunked.  And those same people are claiming Cooper proves that, yet Cooper is averaging 38 yards per game and has 3 games with 0 yards, 5, yards and 10 yards.  They might as well dig up the old Sammy Watkins decoy arguments then too.  

Dominant WR1 and dictating coverage is not the same thing.

[Magox]

Just like most debates on message boards, it's all black or white.

 

Truth is, even if we hadn't had traded for Cooper this offense would be somewhere in the top 5 to 10 range.  With Cooper, they are a top 3 unit.   

 

Cooper without doubt makes opposing defenses have to account for him whereas before they didn't have to quite as much.   

 

The team has plenty of effective weapons that are capable of making impacting catches, it truly is "everyone eats", it's not just some saying that they spout, it's backed by facts and everyone on this planet can see it except the hard headed dopes.  

 

Also, there seems to be this revisionist history that the Bills could have had a quality weapon like Cooper going into the season.  Really?   With what money?   Could they have gotten creative and freed up money and committed $15 - $20 Mill a year to someone?   Sure, but the Bills addressed it with their top pick and believed that they had enough weapons to still have had a good offense, in which they were right with that assessment. 

 

It turns out that the Bills were looking a lot better than they had hoped and were competitive with an AFC east landscape that was there to be easily seized.   Beane worked his magic, got a competent #1 boundary WR for peanuts which fit into the salary cap without having to commit anything down the line and it cost them a third to do it, which is well worth it when you are in the hunt to win it all.

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

I love this thread

[JP51]

11 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Headline in article in Buffalo News:

 

Bills notebook: Amari Cooper 'waiting (his) whole life to be on a team like this'

 

Couple quotes from article:

 

“It’s absolutely amazing,” Cooper told The Buffalo News. “Honestly, I’ve been waiting my whole life to be on a team like this.”

 

“Obviously, I’m a receiver,” Cooper said. “Every receiver wants the ball. But, I mean, I’m in Year 10. And so, what’s most important to me is winning. And so, I think we definitely have the formula.

 

“So, I think it’s actually kind of cool, like going from 14 targets to zero targets, and we win, we beat a great team, actually a potential matchup down the road"

 

“But we are part of a team to where guys go down, and the offense is still putting up 40, 50 points. That’s truly a team that has a chance.”

 

I'm sure Diggs would say the same!

I can only imagine what Diva Diggs would say... LOL 

[Kelly to Allen]

Hopefully we bring Cooper and Hollins back. Hamler too.

 

I would then look at drafting a Gabe Davis like wr Rd 3-4 range. 

Edited Friday at 03:03 PM by Kelly to Allen

[SCBills]

27 minutes ago, Magox said:

Just like most debates on message boards, it's all black or white.

 

Truth is, even if we hadn't had traded for Cooper this offense would be somewhere in the top 5 to 10 range.  With Cooper, they are a top 3 unit.   

 

Cooper without doubt makes opposing defenses have to account for him whereas before they didn't have to quite as much.   

 

The team has plenty of effective weapons that are capable of making impacting catches, it truly is "everyone eats", it's not just some saying that they spout, it's backed by facts and everyone on this planet can see it except the hard headed dopes.  

 

Also, there seems to be this revisionist history that the Bills could have had a quality weapon like Cooper going into the season.  Really?   With what money?   Could they have gotten creative and freed up money and committed $15 - $20 Mill a year to someone?   Sure, but the Bills addressed it with their top pick and believed that they had enough weapons to still have had a good offense, in which they were right with that assessment. 

 

It turns out that the Bills were looking a lot better than they had hoped and were competitive with an AFC east landscape that was there to be easily seized.   Beane worked his magic, got a competent #1 boundary WR for peanuts which fit into the salary cap without having to commit anything down the line and it cost them a third to do it, which is well worth it when you are in the hunt to win it all.

I agree with almost all of this, except I do think Beane knew it was always likely.. as long as we didn’t bomb the first part of our season, that he was going to trade for a WR.  
 

This bodes well for the future, knowing we can win with the formula of Josh Allen, a good OL (which Kromer/Beane have an eye for) and then loading up on skill positions without needing that true elite WR1.

 

To your point, you still need dudes, but alot easier to find/develop an Amari Cooper type with our draft positions & cap situation than needing a 30M WR in free agency/trade or monster move up in the draft for a guy. 
 

The RB room, TE room and WR room we currently have is absolutely replicable year in/year out with Josh Allen making 60M or whatever we pay him on his next extension and drafting late in every round. 
 

 

Edited Friday at 03:06 PM by SCBills

[JP51]

First off... When I saw this thread in the offseason I would have never pegged it at 162 pages and counting... well done OP its one of the ones I always come back to, talk about standing the test of time. 

 

I think our receiving core is the offensive version of the Dolphins no name defense in the 70s. No one was epic league leading commercial worthy awesome... but as a group they were excellent and just won.  Ours is similar, next man up concept, everyone eats concept is working... of course it doesnt hurt to have a QB that is performing at an all Universe level LOL... 

 

Coop definitely helps in drawing coverage and has made some major plays this year. Shakir to me is the MVP especially RAC and catch rate... not a game breaker like JJ, but what a consistent hard nosed playmaker. Kincaid has seen a bit of a regression, but certainly not disappointed,  first off I feel like his blocking has improved a bit and he is adjusting to being a person who coverage is focused on, Keon is a pleasant surprise would like to see him open a bit more consistently but he is as advertised with his 50/50 balls deep. He will improve over time as he learns the NFL game and route running. Mack Hollins, not the best WR in the NFL, but he not only has found a way to contribute, make big plays, and block... but he in that locker room replaced the negativity of Diggs with a joyous, fun ecclectic attitude.. watching the team walk around with no shoes is hilarious... but it is also team building and leadership as goofy as it is... Samuel not as advertised, but he has been injured and has not been a distraction, Knox again what a team mate... adjusting his role to a blocking TE and still being a positive leader that will step up and make a catch when it is needed... Dont know how many times I have said when Kincaid was out... glad we have him.  Ty, what a revelation out of the back field, I have not seen a back in pass route in a bills uniform that has been as effective since 34 played for us...  all in all... improvement for sure, collectively they are a force when combined with 17. 

 

I am not gonna lie, I did not think at this juncture I would be writing this and in agreement with the original post especially knowing Claypool and MVS wouldnt be here and lighting it up... that would have been my original  path to agreement... glad I was wrong.