I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, folz said:

Now, having said that and acknowledging that trading for Cooper shows that the team believed, as many of you did, that we did still need a WR1 (even if he wasn't going to be catching 80-100 balls in this offense), can't some of you guys acknowledge that Coleman, Shakir, Hollins, and the use of the TEs and RBs in the passing game has all turned out better than what you expected too (with or without Amari in the conversation)?

 

No, on the whole it turned out to be almost exactly what I expected. Comparing to my offseason expectations - Shakir is about the same maybe slightly better, Hollins somewhat better, Coleman the same, Samuel immensely worse (Samuel alone means the WR room as a whole is slightly worse than I expected if anything). For TE - Kincaid has been worse than my expectations, Knox about the same maybe slightly better. The RBs are doing what I expected. 

 

There was a moment after the first 4 games where I wondered if my offseason expectations were wrong. But then Baltimore laid out the blueprint, the next couple teams followed it (as did Indy when Cooper was out with injury) and the passing game really struggled. It was exactly what I expected to happen.

 

Look at the KC game - Cooper makes two huge catches downfield, both came on TD drives. I'm sorry but Hollins and Coleman aren't making those two plays. Without those two plays we probably lose. So yes our offense without Cooper was good enough for us to be a playoff team, which I knew coming into the season. But it was not good enough to contend with other playoff teams.

 

Edited Wednesday at 11:40 PM by HappyDays

[Alphadawg7]

On 12/16/2024 at 8:29 AM, Kirby Jackson said:

They were fine and have been pretty good. They still had 9/111/1 of the 362 passing yards. Shakir was the only WR with more than 1 catch. This conversation was about the wide receivers and not the pass catchers. The receivers have been fine but they are still just okay.  

 

Well its a good thing all the "pass catchers" are on the field at the same time as the WR's and just as eligible to catch passes then right  🤪

[Kirby Jackson]

8 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well its a good thing all the "pass catchers" are on the field at the same time as the WR's and just as eligible to catch passes then right  🤪

We all agree with that. Just trying to not move the goal posts. This conversation, and the title of the thread is about the “WR room.” It isn’t about “the pass catchers.” They were always better than the WRs. Those aren’t interchangeable. 

Edited Wednesday at 11:45 PM by Kirby Jackson

[Alphadawg7]

On 12/17/2024 at 4:43 AM, MJS said:

Many were claiming it was the worst group in the league. A few even claimed, hilariously, that it was historically bad. I think average is a lot better than what many Bills fans expected, and certainly a lot better than expected nationally.

 

Many didn't like the Coleman pick. Many scoffed at Mack Hollins and questioned his roster position all offseason and into the season.

 

So, I think it is not accurate to say "the wide receivers are essentially who we thought they were".

 

This

 

 

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

We all agree with that. Just trying to not move the goal posts. This conversation, and the title of the thread is about the “WR room.” It isn’t about “the pass catchers.” They were always better than the WRs. Those aren’t interchangeable. 

 

I don't disagree with you, but read the history here...this thread often went well beyond just the receivers in all its glory and many still said the pass catchers as a whole even beyond the WR's was amongst the worst in the league.

 

And the point many of us kept trying to make...is with everybody eats it goes beyond only the WR's and that the groups strength was its diversity and everyone having a role to play and playing that role well.  

Edited Wednesday at 11:53 PM by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

No, on the whole it turned out to be almost exactly what I expected. Comparing to my offseason expectations - Shakir is about the same maybe slightly better, Hollins somewhat better, Coleman the same, Samuel immensely worse (Samuel alone means the WR room as a whole is slightly worse than I expected if anything). For TE - Kincaid has been worse than my expectations, Knox about the same maybe slightly better. The RBs are doing what I expected. 

 

There was a moment after the first 4 games where I wondered if my offseason expectations were wrong. But then Baltimore laid out the blueprint, the next couple teams followed it (as did Indy when Cooper was out with injury) and the passing game really struggled. It was exactly what I expected to happen.

 

Look at the KC game - Cooper makes two huge catches downfield, both came on TD drives. I'm sorry but Hollins and Coleman aren't making those two plays. Without those two plays we probably lose. So yes our offense without Cooper was good enough for us to be a playoff team, which I knew coming into the season. But it was not good enough to contend with other playoff teams.

 

 

Id say Shakir the same, Coleman slightly better (his overall production is gonna be probably slightly under what I expected but he missed 4 games and that matters). But otherwise I agree totally. 

 

And the fact that last week they attacked Detroit's beat up linebackers with backs and tight ends is not proof that you don't need outside receivers who can win down the field. It is just proof that Brady is a good OC (and to be fair I was consistent pre-season that I thought he would be a decent upgrade on Dorsey) and can gameplan against his opponent's weaknesses.

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This. 

 

Don't forget they mocked the everyone eats thing too and also said the talent around Allen as a whole was bad, not just the Receivers.  Some argued that the offense was worse under Brady and we shouldn't have fired Dorsey either.  Certain posters kept bringing up Brady's time in Carolina as if heading an offense led by Josh Allen or Teddy Bridewater had any similarity lol.  

 

But get ready to hang out in the spin cycle...because there has been plenty of it all season lol.  

 

 

 

I don't disagree with you, but read the history here...this thread often went well beyond just the receivers in all its glory and many still said the pass catchers as a whole even beyond the WR's was amongst the worst in the league.

 

And the point many of us kept trying to make...is with everybody eats it goes beyond only the WR's and that the groups strength was its diversity and everyone having a role to play and playing that role well.  

I’m only speaking for my strong opinion on the topic. I said that it was a bottom 3 WR room with a ceiling of like 22. If we look at it objectively, that may not be far off (at least prior to Cooper). Shakir has become a high end slot. Samuel has been a disaster. Mack has been a good blocker and made some tough catches. He’s a 4 at best. Coleman has been just a guy. It isn’t different than anyone expected. The only thing that is surprising is a negative and that’s Samuel’s contributions. Lol, only Shakir had more than 1 catch last week!!

 

Josh has just been a different level of elite. I’d add the OL to the conversation as well. They’ve been excellent. Josh has had CRAZY time to make plays. Even average NFL receivers can find space if they have 4+ seconds.

 

The offense has worked because of Josh, Brady and the OL. The backs are pretty good as well. That was the plan and it is working. The offense being elite doesn’t mean that this WR group is. 

[FireChans]

34 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m only speaking for my strong opinion on the topic. I said that it was a bottom 3 WR room with a ceiling of like 22. If we look at it objectively, that may not be far off (at least prior to Cooper). Shakir has become a high end slot. Samuel has been a disaster. Mack has been a good blocker and made some tough catches. He’s a 4 at best. Coleman has been just a guy. It isn’t different than anyone expected. The only thing that is surprising is a negative and that’s Samuel’s contributions. Lol, only Shakir had more than 1 catch last week!!

 

Josh has just been a different level of elite. I’d add the OL to the conversation as well. They’ve been excellent. Josh has had CRAZY time to make plays. Even average NFL receivers can find space if they have 4+ seconds.

 

The offense has worked because of Josh, Brady and the OL. The backs are pretty good as well. That was the plan and it is working. The offense being elite doesn’t mean that this WR group is. 

Yup.

 

Things I can confidently say I didn’t expect:

 

Josh to play better than he ever has

 

Joe Brady to be a better OC than I thought he was gonna be

the OL shuffle post-Morse to be the best in Josh’s career. 
 

tbh, those things make the WR room and pass catching room less noticeable. And honestly good, because we needed to trade for Amari baseline and him and Coleman have been in and out of the lineup. And Samuel has been kind of a disaster. And Kincaid has been a disappointment too. 
 

But none of that made the WR room “quietly better.” lol.

Edited Thursday at 12:33 AM by FireChans

[Kirby Jackson]

13 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yup.

 

Things I can confidently say I didn’t expect:

 

Josh to play better than he ever has

 

Joe Brady to be a better OC than I thought he was gonna be

the OL shuffle post-Morse to be the best in Josh’s career. 
 

tbh, those things make the WR room and pass catching room less noticeable. And honestly good, because we needed to trade for Amari baseline and him and Coleman have been in and out of the lineup. And Samuel has been kind of a disaster. And Kincaid has been a disappointment too. 
 

But none of that made the WR room “quietly better.” lol.

It’s odd that some people are trying to dance in the end zone in this thread. So many are confusing the elite offense with good WRs. I don’t have the energy to pull the WR stats and compare them to other teams. Other teams have worse QBs and worse OLs and better WRs. We shouldn’t confuse an elite offense with elite WRs.

 

They’ve largely been who we thought they’d be. The question was, “will these weak WRs be their downfall?” That hasn’t been the case because of Brady/Josh/OL. It hasn’t been because they were miraculously better than we expected. Allen is going to throw for 4,000 yards without a 1,000 yard receiver.

Edited Thursday at 12:47 AM by Kirby Jackson

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

It’s odd that some people are trying to dance in the end zone in this thread. So many are confusing the elite offense with good WRs. I don’t have the energy to pull the WR stats and compare them to other teams. Other teams have worse QBs and worse OLs and better WRs. We shouldn’t confuse an elite offense with elite WRs.

 

They’ve largely been who we thought they’d be. The question was, “will this weak WR be their downfall?” That hasn’t been the case because of Brady/Josh/OL. It hasn’t been because they were miraculously better than we expected. Allen is going to throw for 4,000 yards without a 1,000 yard receiver.

The folks trying to victory lap are the ones with MULTIPLE posts of “here’s how Curtis Samuel will get 70 touches for ~900 yards” takes 

[BADOLBILZ]

On 12/17/2024 at 5:59 PM, NewEra said:

I’m moving the goalposts?  Idk, maybe my grammar error caused you to misunderstand my post.  
 

Some people were saying that this was the worst Bills WR unit in the last 40 years.  I disagreed.  
 

I do think cooper has made an impact, even in games last Sunday.  I just think the WR unit we had before cooper was a lot better than many suggested. 

 

And those saying that the WR unit has performed as they were expected aren’t telling the whole truth imo. Hollins is much better than most of ya’ll said he’d be.  Coleman has been good and was hitting his groove before the injury. Shakir has been as advertised but his rac ability has hit a new level imo.  He’s even better than last season. Samuel has been an injured bust that seems to be the most expensive gadget guy in the league. But he’s shown up in a few big moments.  

 

 

The WR's and TE's they took into the season have performed about as could reasonably be expected.    But Hollins modest 295 yards have been more than offset by the flops of Samuel and MVS.  

 

Subsequently passing yardage is down by about 10 yards per game and passing to WR/TE is actually down closer to 20 ypg over last season.

 

That's significant and a lot of that poorer production preceded the acquisition of Cooper.   We will call that the "nobody eats" period.   Things are trending upward though since said acquisition.   

 

It was a CERTAINTY that Beane would be desperately in search of a WR1 in October.   I promised you all that IN THIS THREAD.   And it happened just as I said.

 

Coleman broke out simultaneously.......and that combination spread out opposing defense's and created better matchups simultaneously.  

 

And that's where we are.   Everybody eats as long as the WR1 is out there and if both he and Coleman are available even Ty Johnson can have a 100 yard receiving game.  Everybody eats doesn't work when everybody is no more than a WR2/3/4.   You were dead wrong thinking it would.

 

Speaking of which, the unit that has benefitted the most are the RB's in the passing game.   Rushing-wise they are about the same as 2023 but they are already at last year's receiving yardage total with 3 games left.    

 

* Also,  I never saw it said anywhere that this was the worst WR corps the Bills had in 40 years.   I referenced 40 years but don't intentionally conflate two points.   What I said was that they had nobody in their WR corps who had even put up 900 yards in an NFL season for the first time since the mid-80's.   Meaning nobody who defense's had to account for individually.  As Cooper has proven..........that is imperative to have.

[nedboy7]

Just cause Samuel didn’t produce this year doesn’t mean he isn’t a solid WR. We have seen that he is in the past. Some reason it hasn’t worked out. Mainly due to injury and then falling out of the game plans. 

Edited Thursday at 01:07 AM by nedboy7

[NewEra]

28 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The WR's and TE's they took into the season have performed about as could reasonably be expected.    But Hollins modest 295 yards have been more than offset by the flops of Samuel and MVS.  

 

Subsequently passing yardage is down by about 10 yards per game and passing to WR/TE is actually down closer to 20 ypg over last season.

 

That's significant and a lot of that poorer production preceded the acquisition of Cooper.   We will call that the "nobody eats" period.   Things are trending upward though since said acquisition.   

 

It was a CERTAINTY that Beane would be desperately in search of a WR1 in October.   I promised you all that IN THIS THREAD.   And it happened just as I said.

 

Coleman broke out simultaneously.......and that combination spread out opposing defense's and created better matchups simultaneously.  

 

And that's where we are.   Everybody eats as long as the WR1 is out there and if both he and Coleman are available even Ty Johnson can have a 100 yard receiving game.  Everybody eats doesn't work when everybody is no more than a WR2/3/4.   You were dead wrong thinking it would.

 

Speaking of which, the unit that has benefitted the most are the RB's in the passing game.   Rushing-wise they are about the same as 2023 but they are already at last year's receiving yardage total with 3 games left.    

 

* Also,  I never saw it said anywhere that this was the worst WR corps the Bills had in 40 years.   I referenced 40 years but don't intentionally conflate two points.   What I said was that they had nobody in their WR corps who had even put up 900 yards in an NFL season for the first time since the mid-80's.   Meaning nobody who defense's had to account for individually.  As Cooper has proven..........that is imperative to have.

You contended my contention of your boy @BullBuchanan’s statement regarding this being the worst WR unit in the last 40 years.  You even backed the 2017/18 units over this unit.  
 

You also said that Samuel was a great pickup and have wanted us to add him for years.  I did too.  
 

yes cooper has transformed us-  we wouldn’t be this good without him.  But one must consider that Josh had to get used to all these new and different weapons.  Teams don’t just gel 💯 in training camp and preseason.  They need time.  Keon needed time. Hollins needed time. Samuel needed time.  Shakir needed time playing as the biggest threat to the opposition. 
 

yes, we did need cooper, but we also needed time. Both factors have helped our offense become what it has. 

 

This offense has become RB centric-  they are a huge part of pass offense.  The downfield pass offense, which I had stated. 
 

Kincaid hasn’t been what I had thought he would be.  Some of that is on Brady Some of that is on Josh.  Some of that is on Kincaid. 
 

I did say Hollins would be better than you all think and his run blocking would be a key part of our offense. It has been in a big way.  

[Orlando Buffalo]

Any mention of the receiver room from August to now has to adjust for Cooper joining, he definitely brings a different quality to the room. That being said most of my predictions are looking really good with the exception of Samuels, who I am still not writing off from having a big playoff. Shakir is the closest to Reed we have had since Reed, Coleman seems like a poor man's Eric Moulds, and Cooper is our James Lofton. We have so many weapons when you include our RBs to throw to now 

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

It’s odd that some people are trying to dance in the end zone in this thread. So many are confusing the elite offense with good WRs. I don’t have the energy to pull the WR stats and compare them to other teams. Other teams have worse QBs and worse OLs and better WRs. We shouldn’t confuse an elite offense with elite WRs.

 

They’ve largely been who we thought they’d be. The question was, “will these weak WRs be their downfall?” That hasn’t been the case because of Brady/Josh/OL. It hasn’t been because they were miraculously better than we expected. Allen is going to throw for 4,000 yards without a 1,000 yard receiver.

yea, I’ll say if in the playoffs with refs letting things get physical and I was a DC against the bills pre-Amari…

 

my plan would still be to bottle up the short and middle and dare Mack hollins to win the game by catching a bunch of chunk plays outside. 
 

Amari changes that drastically 

22 minutes ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

Any mention of the receiver room from August to now has to adjust for Cooper joining, he definitely brings a different quality to the room. That being said most of my predictions are looking really good with the exception of Samuels, who I am still not writing off from having a big playoff. Shakir is the closest to Reed we have had since Reed, Coleman seems like a poor man's Eric Moulds, and Cooper is our James Lofton. We have so many weapons when you include our RBs to throw to now 

come on…. 2 HOF and moulds? Its posts like this that derail the thread

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

You contended my contention of your boy @BullBuchanan’s statement regarding this being the worst WR unit in the last 40 years.  You even backed the 2017/18 units over this unit.  
 

You also said that Samuel was a great pickup and have wanted us to add him for years.  I did too.  
 

yes cooper has transformed us-  we wouldn’t be this good without him.  But one must consider that Josh had to get used to all these new and different weapons.  Teams don’t just gel 💯 in training camp and preseason.  They need time.  Keon needed time. Hollins needed time. Samuel needed time.  Shakir needed time playing as the biggest threat to the opposition. 
 

yes, we did need cooper, but we also needed time. Both factors have helped our offense become what it has. 

 

This offense has become RB centric-  they are a huge part of pass offense.  The downfield pass offense, which I had stated. 
 

Kincaid hasn’t been what I had thought he would be.  Some of that is on Brady Some of that is on Josh.  Some of that is on Kincaid. 
 

I did say Hollins would be better than you all think and his run blocking would be a key part of our offense. It has been in a big way.  

 

Just to clarify that you aren't just arguing for the sake of not admitting you were wrong from the outset:

 

What you are saying is that this WR corps would have been better than last year's without the Cooper trade but that the Cooper trade has denied you a truth?   Even though they've been greatly improved by Cooper's presence for 2 months and still aren't as statistically productive of a unit as last year?

 

There just isn't a lot of support for the contention that it was going to work before Beane went and made it better.  

 

Refresher:

 

[gonzo1105]

I think they need to add another high to middle round draft pick next year. Hollins is a Free Agent and we are essentially stuck with Samuel for at least another year due to the way his contract is structured. Essentially we are going to be relying on further ascension of Shakir, Kincaid and improvement from Coleman (which should be expected). A guy like Ty Johnson is going to get some play in the free agent market due to the way he is playing that I'm not sure Buffalo will want to match.

 

I would classify our WR room as average no more or less. The Bills actually rank 22nd in pass attempts this year because their blowing out some teams and their run game has been very strong so statistically our WR's of course are going to be on the lower end of the statistics. I think Shakir has been better than most people anticipated. Hollins is what he is. Coleman has been okay and who knows what his stats would be if he wasn't out 4 games. Samuel has been a disaster outside of the Chiefs game and Cooper is either a dynamic part of the offense or invisible based on game plan.

[GASabresIUFan]

160 pages.  Is this the longest thread ever?

[GASabresIUFan]

9 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

I think they need to add another high to middle round draft pick next year. Hollins is a Free Agent and we are essentially stuck with Samuel for at least another year due to the way his contract is structured. Essentially we are going to be relying on further ascension of Shakir, Kincaid and improvement from Coleman (which should be expected). A guy like Ty Johnson is going to get some play in the free agent market due to the way he is playing that I'm not sure Buffalo will want to match.

 

I would classify our WR room as average no more or less. The Bills actually rank 22nd in pass attempts this year because their blowing out some teams and their run game has been very strong so statistically our WR's of course are going to be on the lower end of the statistics. I think Shakir has been better than most people anticipated. Hollins is what he is. Coleman has been okay and who knows what his stats would be if he wasn't out 4 games. Samuel has been a disaster outside of the Chiefs game and Cooper is either a dynamic part of the offense or invisible based on game plan.

 

The WR room is just fine.  Would I like to see Beane add another receiver in the draft.  Absolutely.  The question is how early in the draft.

 

The WR room for next season is Shakir in the slot, Coleman on one boundary and Samuel mixing in.  I expect Hollins to be re-signed.  He is our Special Teams Ace and a decent WR who makes big plays here and there.  Josh also seems to like him.  The real question is does Cooper stay.  Does he want to stay and for how much?  I don't think we've seen the full positive impact he has as he probably still learning the system, the playbook and building rapport with Josh.  If we go into next year with Shakir, Coleman, Cooper, Samuel, Hollins and a mid round rookie, I think we'll be in great shape.  

[gonzo1105]

14 minutes ago, GASabresIUFan said:

 

The WR room is just fine.  Would I like to see Beane add another receiver in the draft.  Absolutely.  The question is how early in the draft.

 

The WR room for next season is Shakir in the slot, Coleman on one boundary and Samuel mixing in.  I expect Hollins to be re-signed.  He is our Special Teams Ace and a decent WR who makes big plays here and there.  Josh also seems to like him.  The real question is does Cooper stay.  Does he want to stay and for how much?  I don't think we've seen the full positive impact he has as he probably still learning the system, the playbook and building rapport with Josh.  If we go into next year with Shakir, Coleman, Cooper, Samuel, Hollins and a mid round rookie, I think we'll be in great shape.  

 

Yea, I completely agree with you there. I think Hollins get re-signed. I'm not sure if getting Cooper signed is feasible for where we're at. I think thats why their trying to extend Allen to lower his cap hit for next year. I mean if guys like Gabe Davis are getting 13 million a year and even if Cooper is giving us a hometown discount per say he's going to want at least 20 million a season I would suspect. Do the Bills want to go to that number? and if so for how long? I think that will determine how high a WR draft pick is next year. No Cooper I think we use one of those 2nd rounders on one. With Cooper we might be able to wait until round 4 or 5 to add.

[GASabresIUFan]

22 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

 

Yea, I completely agree with you there. I think Hollins get re-signed. I'm not sure if getting Cooper signed is feasible for where we're at. I think thats why their trying to extend Allen to lower his cap hit for next year. I mean if guys like Gabe Davis are getting 13 million a year and even if Cooper is giving us a hometown discount per say he's going to want at least 20 million a season I would suspect. Do the Bills want to go to that number? and if so for how long? I think that will determine how high a WR draft pick is next year. No Cooper I think we use one of those 2nd rounders on one. With Cooper we might be able to wait until round 4 or 5 to add.

I don't think he's getting 20 mill from anyone at 31 coming off a mediocre year.  If he is getting on with Josh and the Bills, he might be better off taking less money and chasing a championship.