I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Andrew Son]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Josh has indeed looked great and they are letting him run and take his lumps like they typically have tried to avoid until later in the season.  9 rushes in the opener of the season?   Not ideal.  Subsequently he was injured in the opener.   That's all for another thread.    

Josh running has never been the problem, IMO.

 

In fact it would be dumb not to use that ability we have at our disposal.  The problem has been his decision making while running.  A lot of QB's run but don't take the punishment.  He needs to continue to show the awareness to protect himself that he has showed the last two weeks.

 

 

Back to the point of the WR's, I don't see as many Mack Hollins jokes lately...

 

[JerseyBills]

15 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

What looks dynamic(defined as constantly changing) can look repetitive/predictable later when defense's take it away and you can't use the entire field.    

Absolutely,  I just love we can hit you with 6 OL, 2 TE, 3 WRs , overall just very unpredictable,  which I genuinely expected and might have mentioned in the op but ya , of course the more data opponents get, the more they'll be able to key in and counter our concepts but when you have so many different looks and different personnel,  it makes it a much tougher task...

 

Another thing to keep in mind is our Play action has been basically useless because of Allen's hand, so that'll be something they should only improve on. 

[Andrew Son]

2 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

 

Another thing to keep in mind is our Play action has been basically useless because of Allen's hand, so that'll be something they should only improve on. 

Play action was a huge part of Mondays game.

[BADOLBILZ]

14 hours ago, Simon said:

 

Nothing in regards to this subject is going to ever be proven. It's a bunch of people giving opinions and debating the relative merits and downsides to different philosophies. Some folks in this thread thought the Bills would be OK, some thought they would struggle. Some thought that they were irretrievably lost without the luxury of a #1 WR. Some things have happened over the first few weeks to suggest that the latter group is wrong and others are pointing that out. The folks that were debating between they'll be OK and they'll have some struggles are both still very much in play.

Suggesting that your position is correct because other opinions haven't been proven is just more of your "I'm always right and everybody else is stupid" nonsense.

 

 

Talk to me in a couple years because frankly, I'm still not convinced of the objective greatness of this WR class.

 

 

Which posters thought they were "irretrievably lost without the luxury or a #1 WR"?    I must have missed that one.  I think you are hyperbolizing there.  People like myself, @Kirby Jackson, @FireChans or @GunnerBill have been talking in terms of reaching and winning a SB.   Not whether the offense turning to utter garbage or even "struggling" on a week to week basis.   When you have Josh Allen in his prime you should always be at least good on offense.  I mean, he makes a 3rd and long look like just another down.  And we saw what this offense looked like in the final 9 games(counting playoffs) last season.   They weren't going to go broke taking a profit but the goal posts weren't at midfield either.......the question is whether this offense has the horses to win in February.  

Edited yesterday at 05:19 PM by BADOLBILZ

[BADOLBILZ]

9 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Absolutely,  I just love we can hit you with 6 OL, 2 TE, 3 WRs , overall just very unpredictable,  which I genuinely expected and might have mentioned in the op but ya , of course the more data opponents get, the more they'll be able to key in and counter our concepts but when you have so many different looks and different personnel,  it makes it a much tougher task...

 

Another thing to keep in mind is our Play action has been basically useless because of Allen's hand, so that'll be something they should only improve on. 

 

Play action you can't go wrong with but the QB has to want to do it.   JA clearly hasn't liked getting under center and taking his eyes off of the defense to execute the play fake.  Which as @GunnerBill pointed out recently is largely why the Bills have never been able to develop much of an outside zone run game.   Brock Purdy and Kirk Cousins?   That's how they gotta' make their living.   That and throwing "contested" passes and back shoulder throws etc..  Among the things we are seeing is Allen looking better on short throws.  We take it for granted but he hasn't always been very good on those.  His timing and placement on throws at/behind or near the LOS looks much better to my eye.  

 

[pennstate10]

I haven’t read this entire thread, but I distinctly remember during the summer that one poster insisted that it was statistically impossible for the Bills WR corps to be any good since PFF had them ranked 28th. 
 

Has that guy (or gal) changed tune, or is Bills WR corps still trash?

[Bockeye]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

This could be the catch phrase of the group who claim the WR corps is clearly better this season than it was at this point last season. 😂

 

I am enjoying the Bills taking advantage of being better prepared and executing better than the opponents they've had to face.   Just like I did last year(when I also didn't think their WR group was good enough to reach a SB with).  

 

But then the offense went from being incredible all the way to the point where the OC got fired at midseason.

 

Teams will adjust.  It's not natural for opponents to assume that Josh Allen isn't even going to try to stretch the field with his WR's so early season defensive game plans have been vulnerable.   But the tape will force them to adapt.  

 

The thing about having playmakers as opposed to role players is that playmakers require extra attention to take away........which opens up other avenues for the offense.  

 

Role players can just be schemed out.

 

I'd hate to see the Bills forced to have a heavy reliance on their outside WR's later in the season.........but if I was a DC that's what I'd be scheming to make happen.   I'm not going to just let you run 12 play drives if you are going to execute them and score 4 TD's in the first half.   I will make you throw it deep to MVS or Coleman or Hollins and take my chances that the mistakes will come in abundance there.

Yeah, in context, I said I believe the catch % over the first 3 games is probably better 🤫.  I also said no one can make a judgement yet that the WR’s are better - we need more games….but they do look good so far.  

 

Here’s the catch phrase of the group that says our WR are considerably worse - “look at their yards!  They are not getting separation!” 😭 = Josh Allen sux then too 😂 

 

I think most sane peeps realize we need to see more games in order to judge our WR corps, but so far, so good.

 

You’re also the one who probably said Allen sucked after his first three games.  Players need time to develop.  If you are already discounting Coleman as a #2 or #3 or worse, you clearly don’t watch football.  Who knows his trajectory - you certainly don’t. (Please see Rousseau, Bernard, Cook, etc…..) 

 

 

[RoscoeParrish]

6 minutes ago, Bockeye said:

Yeah, in context, I said I believe the catch % over the first 3 games is probably better 🤫.  I also said no one can make a judgement yet that the WR’s are better - we need more games….but they do look good so far.  

 

Here’s the catch phrase of the group that says our WR are considerably worse - “look at their yards!  They are not getting separation!” 😭 = Josh Allen sux then too 😂 

 

I think most sane peeps realize we need to see more games in order to judge our WR corps, but so far, so good.

 

You’re also the one who probably said Allen sucked after his first three games.  Players need time to develop.  If you are already discounting Coleman as a #2 or #3 or worse, you clearly don’t watch football.  Who knows his trajectory - you certainly don’t. (Please see Rousseau, Bernard, Cook, etc…..) 

 

 

Yards is an imperfect measure. 
 

That being said, there is one Bill with >100 receiving yards on the season. 
 

That would be Khalil Shakir, who ranks 29th in receiving yards so far. 
 

The next highest Bills WR is Coleman, who ranks 111th.

 

Now, there’s certainly an opportunity relation to yards. Mediocre WR’s can rack up yards with high target volume. But that’s something to point to as this WR group might be closer to below average than good. 

 

I actually think it’s a total credit to Allen, who is playing the best ball of his career, Joe Brady who I think has done about as good of a job you could hope when it comes to scheme, and the other guys, like Cook, who are carrying a larger offensive load that the offense has been humming.

 

And really that’s what matters. If the WR’s don’t put up mega numbers and the Bills offense just clicks all year and in the postseason, this is all a lot of hubbub about nothing. 
 

But while I have been pretty pleasantly surprised with Josh and Brady so far, there is a tiny voice in my head waiting for the other shoe to drop and a good defensive team daring Mack and MVS to beat them.

 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Play action you can't go wrong with but the QB has to want to do it.   JA clearly hasn't liked getting under center and taking his eyes off of the defense to execute the play fake.  Which as @GunnerBill pointed out recently is largely why the Bills have never been able to develop much of an outside zone run game.   Brock Purdy and Kirk Cousins?   That's how they gotta' make their living.   That and throwing "contested" passes and back shoulder throws etc..  Among the things we are seeing is Allen looking better on short throws.  We take it for granted but he hasn't always been very good on those.  His timing and placement on throws at/behind or near the LOS looks much better to my eye.  

 

 

Agree. I said it in the GDT on Monday night. His ball placement on those moving laterally short throws has really improved even compared to 2020 and 2021 when he was already an elite QB but struggled at times with those plays. It is part of the massive improvement in YAC we have seen. It isn't all of it - type of receivers and type of route play a part too. But those sorts of throws are an area Josh has improved even since his breakout.

[Cash]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Play action you can't go wrong with but the QB has to want to do it.   JA clearly hasn't liked getting under center and taking his eyes off of the defense to execute the play fake.  Which as @GunnerBill pointed out recently is largely why the Bills have never been able to develop much of an outside zone run game.   Brock Purdy and Kirk Cousins?   That's how they gotta' make their living.   That and throwing "contested" passes and back shoulder throws etc..  Among the things we are seeing is Allen looking better on short throws.  We take it for granted but he hasn't always been very good on those.  His timing and placement on throws at/behind or near the LOS looks much better to my eye.  

 

 

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree. I said it in the GDT on Monday night. His ball placement on those moving laterally short throws has really improved even compared to 2020 and 2021 when he was already an elite QB but struggled at times with those plays. It is part of the massive improvement in YAC we have seen. It isn't all of it - type of receivers and type of route play a part too. But those sorts of throws are an area Josh has improved even since his breakout.

 

Pretty significant improvement from last year to this year, IMO.  Allen has always been pretty shaky on those WR screens - one of the reasons we never got much traction is that Allen often put the ball at the WR's feet - and that hurts RAC even if the WR catches it.  Through 3 games, he's been excellent at throwing them quickly and with great ball placement.  (Having improved blockers at WR in Hollins and Coleman also helps, as does having better RAC players catching in Shakir and Samuel vs Business Decision Diggs last year.)

 

I remember after the playoff loss last year, I was chatting with another Bills fan, and the topic of Josh's game came up.  He semi-rhetorically asked how Josh could get better at this point.  I took it seriously, and came back with screen passes, deep shots, and risk-based judgment.  So far this year, Allen looks way better than last year on 1 & 3, and about the same on 2 although the sample size is extremely small there.  Still TBD are his RB screens; I don't think we've run one yet this year.

[Mikey152]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1) Yes, it is possible.  But that "legion of boom" "defend every blade of grass" style of defense is out of vogue now because the talent at the QB and WR positions has increased exponentially in the past 15 years and week-in-week-out it's just more effective to make most teams nickel and dime their way down the field.   The Bills have adapted but it doesn't mean they've become indefensible.   They've just moved the emphasis.  

 

2) They faced a great defense on the road in the opener last year and then speedboated 3 teams more like the caliber of what they have played this year.   They put up huge numbers offensively.  

 

3) The thread is about the quality of the WR.   Josh has indeed looked great and they are letting him run and take his lumps like they typically have tried to avoid until later in the season.  9 rushes in the opener of the season?   Not ideal.  Subsequently he was injured in the opener.   That's all for another thread.    

Maybe you need to relook at more than just the scores of those games...

 

The commanders game, in particular, was not pretty. And the Vegas game was ok, but a big part of that was because, after the Jets game they ran the ball and focused on short passes and turnover-free football...hmm, sounds familiar. 

 

Here's the deal...sure, a great #1 is generally a good thing, especially if they're at least modestly team oriented and selfless. But any QB in the NFL is going to take a top offensive line, good RBs and TEs, and reliable WR that catch the ball over a (albeit talented) Diva WR, a guy that runs wrong routes and some ST scrubs that cant catch. You don't have to believe me, but just look at Josh's face...does he look like a guy that is pissed about his weapons these days?

Edited yesterday at 07:14 PM by Mikey152

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Play action you can't go wrong with but the QB has to want to do it.   JA clearly hasn't liked getting under center and taking his eyes off of the defense to execute the play fake.  Which as @GunnerBill pointed out recently is largely why the Bills have never been able to develop much of an outside zone run game.   Brock Purdy and Kirk Cousins?   That's how they gotta' make their living.   That and throwing "contested" passes and back shoulder throws etc..  Among the things we are seeing is Allen looking better on short throws.  We take it for granted but he hasn't always been very good on those.  His timing and placement on throws at/behind or near the LOS looks much better to my eye.  

 

 

Josh has definitely improved his timing on short throws. In the past he's wait too long and almost telegraphed the short ones, like he was reluctant to take them.

 

The back half of last year, and certainly the KC playoff game, he qb'd in a Tom Brady fashion (with the added dimension of running the ball.) 

 

The test for this O is going to come when team's can stop the run with their front while pressing in match zone coverage to take away the quick rhythm throws and make Allen hold the ball longer.

 

Can the receivers win 1v1 battles without much breathing room and get open against better defenses that lack weaknesses? 

[Scott7975]

They catch the ball better, have better YAC, and they are better at running pick/rub plays. A lot of that might have to do with Brady’s scheme though. 

[Rocky Landing]

We need a guy who will catch everything thrown his way, and have the athleticism to get some great YAC. Someone who can work the entire field, and consistently get open. A guy that no one thinks can run to the boundary, but has actually done it numerous times. Someone that Josh can develop some real chemistry with, and become his leading WR, but still somehow fly under the radar.

 

Wish we had a guy like that...

[Bangarang]

This offense was not at all what I expected. I thought teams would take our best weapons away and we would see some early struggles. Credit to Brady for scheming and calling some great games. Shakir is him and hopefully Keon can get going more. 

[Freddie's Dead]

On 9/24/2024 at 10:08 AM, Magox said:

 

 

The phony ass fraud in his native habitat.  Fake mutha *****a.

[Alphadawg7]

When was the last time anyone went back and read @JerseyBills original post that started this thread?  

 

I just did and if people remove their bias of wanting to be right about their own takes, I think you will find it was well written and thus far mostly been pretty spot on.  

 

Nice work...I agreed with you since day 1 and still do now.  I like what we are seeing through 3 weeks, especially how Brady is varying the style, look, and play calling week to week based on the opponent.  It will make it harder for teams to scheme to defend it on any given week.  Still need to see how Brady and the O handle tougher tests where the opposing teams have more film to prepare against us, but hard to find much fault in your OP through 3 weeks and you should be getting more kudos for that.  

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

When was the last time anyone went back and read @JerseyBills original post that started this thread?  

 

I just did and if people remove their bias of wanting to be right about their own takes, I think you will find it was well written and thus far mostly been pretty spot on.  

 

Nice work...I agreed with you since day 1 and still do now.  I like what we are seeing through 3 weeks, especially how Brady is varying the style, look, and play calling week to week based on the opponent.  It will make it harder for teams to scheme to defend it on any given week.  Still need to see how Brady and the O handle tougher tests where the opposing teams have more film to prepare against us, but hard to find much fault in your OP through 3 weeks and you should be getting more kudos for that.  

 

 

I just did and it still is what it is.

 

For instance, he anticipated Mack Hollins putting up 690 yards receiving.........and he has 41.......so he is on pace for 232.  I guess that's close? Right?

 

Otherwise just a lot of vague "we're deeper at WR" so they will therefore be a better WR corps.   I mean, if I told you guys that Samuel would only have 40 receiving yards thru 3 games you'd have shouted me down but now the goal post has been moved. 😂

 

What it really comes down to is that the WR position has been de-emphasized thru 3 games.

 

Last year thru their first 3 games(including a tough road game against NYJ defense) the Bills WR's had almost 500 yards receiving.    Then they got warmed up and had two HUGE games after that "modest" start.  

 

They were a WR centric offense that really wasn't good enough at WR to expect to reach a SB.

 

This year, thru three games their WR have just 350 yards receiving.   They've been efficient but it's their weakest unit on offense(by a lot) so it makes sense to under-feed them if possible.   When I tried to explain to people that you just weren't going to replace those 2023 WR stats by having a better 5th(or 6th) WR.......there was great pushback as people tried to backfigure how Josh Allen was going to get the same amount of passing yards etc.. 

 

Edited 20 hours ago by BADOLBILZ

[dave mcbride]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree. I said it in the GDT on Monday night. His ball placement on those moving laterally short throws has really improved even compared to 2020 and 2021 when he was already an elite QB but struggled at times with those plays. It is part of the massive improvement in YAC we have seen. It isn't all of it - type of receivers and type of route play a part too. But those sorts of throws are an area Josh has improved even since his breakout.

Literally, that entire piece about QB singles hitting in The Athletic WITH ACTUAL LONG AND DETAILED QUOTES FROM JOSH ALLEN said it all. All the rest, including our ex post facto analyses, is noise, IMHO.

[Thurman#1]

On 9/25/2024 at 9:29 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's called an analogy.   "A comparison between two things typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification".   In quotations for @Alphadawg7 before he pulls his "fake news" act.   Analogy adds to the discussion.  

 

You are confusing that reality with your need to be told that winning a couple early season blowouts proves something substantial.    The early season 2023 offense that obliterated Las Vegas, Miami and Washington in consecutive games clearly was NOT the same by the end of last season.   Don't keep making the same mistake of assuming September football projects to January football.   As I said before camp.........we will know if this experiment worked or not in February. 

 

 

Nah.

 

Not so. It'll be well before February.

Having said that, you're right that with three games, the sample size is still too small by quite a bit. That's a reasonable point.