I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, NoSaint said:

if you were drafting a guy long term, maybe you pick Keon. 
 

for a game this weekend probably less enthusiastic about that WR1 status for Keon 

I would take Keon long term over Mooney 100% of the time.  
 

And honestly by the time week 1 gets here and Keon has a full camp and preseason complete, I’m probably taking Keon week 1 too over Mooney unless Keon ends up struggling during camp and preseason, which so far it’s nothing but stellar reports coming out.
 

But that is also because I am optimistic on Keon and also know Mooney is not a WR1, at least not a good one.  Keon I firmly believe will be a WR1 and will be ready to start his ascension come week 1.

Edited July 26 by Alphadawg7

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I would take Keon long term over Mooney 100% of the time.  
 

And honestly by the time week 1 gets here and Keon has a full camp and preseason complete, I’m probably taking Keon week 1 too over Mooney unless Keon ends up struggling during camp and preseason, which so far it’s nothing but stellar reports coming out.
 

But that is also because I am optimistic on Keon and also know Mooney is not a WR1, at least not a good one.  Keon I firmly believe will be a WR1 and will be ready to start his ascension come week 1.

between the comparisons between shakir and kupp, and now belief that Keon will be WR1, I’m scared to see what I’ve missed you saying about Samuel. 

[Kaenon]

Our pass catchers this season:

 

Kincaid (1st round pick)

Samuel, Coleman, Claypool, Hamler, Isabella (2nd round picks)

Knox (3rd round pick)

Hollins, Shakir (4th round picks)

MVS, Shorter (5th round picks)

 

We'll see who makes it.

That's an awful lot of 2nd round picks.

 

[SoonerBillsFan]

30 minutes ago, Kaenon said:

Our pass catchers this season:

 

Kincaid (1st round pick)

Samuel, Coleman, Claypool, Hamler, Isabella (2nd round picks)

Knox (3rd round pick)

Hollins, Shakir (4th round picks)

MVS, Shorter (5th round picks)

 

We'll see who makes it.

That's an awful lot of 2nd round picks.

 

 

At this point I say keep 10 WR'S lol

[Billl]

20 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I've been saying all along that the philosophy on offense will be "get open, catch ball."  And they've been saying for awhile now that is no #1 WR.

This is groundbreaking.  Do any other teams utilize similar concepts?

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, Kaenon said:

Our pass catchers this season:

 

Kincaid (1st round pick)

Samuel, Coleman, Claypool, Hamler, Isabella (2nd round picks)

Knox (3rd round pick)

Hollins, Shakir (4th round picks)

MVS, Shorter (5th round picks)

 

We'll see who makes it.

That's an awful lot of 2nd round picks.

 

the unfortunate truth: they are a bit of a crapshoot after the initial high end guys in the class. It speaks to Keon not being a slam dunk star- though I think he will be relatively productive

[3rdand12]

16 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

It’s the poor man’s 49ers at the skill positions.

 

not wild to see deebo-aiyuk as the premium Samuel-shakir, right?

Kittle/kincaid is probably the least “poor man” comparison 

 

While I like cook, no cmc but they’ve dabbled in that usage 

 

the flip side is we have Josh instead of purdy so we are the aged out of a rookie qb deal version of it. Does that work? Probably most weeks. Does it beat the jags-bengals-chiefs-49ers in consecutive weeks after new years? Not impossible but I’d sure feel better with one proven matchup problem at outside WR

Nice comparison.

As I have mentioned , I put a lot of the burden on Brady and the Coaches to make this all come together.

 By the time we get to the playoffs I would really like to see a strong developed and cohesive team with Brady keeping his cards close to his vest , up his sleeve or whatever it takes

[3rdand12]

3 hours ago, NoSaint said:

the unfortunate truth: they are a bit of a crapshoot after the initial high end guys in the class. It speaks to Keon not being a slam dunk star- though I think he will be relatively productive

Not quite the Island of Misfit Toys , but it's not a long reach to consider that analogy for the WRs who have yet to prove themselves as solid players week in week out

[Mat68]

Coleman is going to be a massive part of this offense.  Massive target shares available.  Working exclusively with Allen and the first team offense is a peak into their expectations of him.  Mcdermott has started some out the rip and others had to move up the charts.  Coleman is thought of very highly and is being positioned to be an instant impact player. 

[Doc]

3 hours ago, Billl said:

This is groundbreaking.  Do any other teams utilize similar concepts?

 

If I wanted an opinion from the likes of you, I would have asked first...

[Alphadawg7]

On 7/24/2024 at 8:47 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

And we have nobody who has even proven to be that. Curtis Samuel has one year of that type of production in his seven year career (reason to be optimistic it was with this OC). Shakir might still be ascending but hasn't proven to be that yet and MVS is clearly proven to be a #3. 

 

If we get low end #2 type production - say 700-750 yards and 4 or 5 TDs - that would be a reasonable outcome given prior production.

 

Let me first clarify that this comment I am about to make isn't solely at you, just replying to you since yours is a recent comment.  But this is more a general response to what is said a lot around here by numerous people who are less optimistic, skeptical or flat out have a very negative view on this group ahead of the season.  

 

There are two things that have been beaten to death and are being made more of than they really are, and in some cases being over exaggerated.

 

First:  Way too much is being made of this "unproven" aspect as if it implies "improbable".  Is it true to say its "unproven" like in the context you just used...yes.  Did you over exaggerate it...NO, but you do say it a lot.  But others shout this from the mountain top as if "unproven" also equates to "improbable" and they know who they are.  And that is where IMHO it is being way over stated and over exaggerated.  If our top of the chart weapons were made up of guys like MVS and Hollins...sure, I would say the "unproven" aspect of them being one of the primary or even the top primary target is a significant concern because they are more established in who they are.  

 

But we are talking about a TE that as a rookie was 4th and 10th in NFL history for rookie TE's in catches and yards.  A WR in Shakir who just led the team in receiving the final 10 games over Diggs with just 38 targets to Diggs 80 targets over that span while also leading all WRs in the NFL in Catch % and one of the best YPT last year.  And a rookie in Keon, where I get people are split, including you who doubts his ability to be a WR1 in the NFL, who despite all that has legitimate WR1 upside and everything coming out on him right now has been over whelmingly great.  From on field performance, to work ethic, football IQ, commitment, and running 100% exclusively with the 1's.  And Samuel has never had a legit starting QB in his career either and entering his prime now.  

 

Optimism that one of them, or more than one of them, can continue to ascend and form a strong top of the chart group is a very legitimate possibility and not at all as improbable or daunting through constant repeating as some make it sound.

 

Second thing is:  Too much is being made about their not being a "Diggs" on the other side of the field.  Yes, there are advantages and benefits to there being a guy who consistently gets extra attention, but to the degree its being discussed is way over the top in this thread.  If you read some of the posts here you would think its impossible for any offense or receivers to have success or play well without a top 5 WR on the field to draw attention.  

 

Not to mention, we already have an Elite player that garners extra attention still in Allen who absolutely teams need to spy.  And furthermore, to assume no teams are going to have to cheat attention during games towards any of our weapons is just naive, there will be guys on this team still getting doubled or defenses selling out to stop on a certain play and to think it won't happen without Diggs is just not realistic.  

 

 

Edited July 26 by Alphadawg7

[Alphadawg7]

16 hours ago, NoSaint said:

between the comparisons between shakir and kupp, and now belief that Keon will be WR1, I’m scared to see what I’ve missed you saying about Samuel. 

 

Lol, my track record on receivers is pretty stellar around here, so I am more than confident in the things I said even though you are absolutely blurring what I actually said in this sarcastic comment to be different than what I really stated in all of the above.  

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Let me first clarify that this comment I am about to make isn't solely at you, just replying to you since yours is a recent comment.  But this is more a general response to what is said a lot around here by numerous people who are less optimistic, skeptical or flat out have a very negative view on this group ahead of the season.  

 

There are two things that have been beaten to death and are being made more of than they really are, and in some cases being over exaggerated.

 

First:  Way too much is being made of this "unproven" aspect as if it implies "improbable".  Is it true to say its "unproven" like in the context you just used...yes.  Did you over exaggerate it...NO, but you do say it a lot.  But others shout this from the mountain top as if "unproven" also equates to "improbable" and they know who they are.  And that is where IMHO it is being way over stated and over exaggerated.  If our top of the chart weapons were made up of guys like MVS and Hollins...sure, I would say the "unproven" aspect of them being one of the primary or even the top primary target is a significant concern because they are more established in who they are.  

 

But we are talking about a TE that as a rookie was 4th and 10th in NFL history for rookie TE's in catches and yards.  A WR in Shakir who just led the team in receiving the final 10 games over Diggs with just 38 targets to Diggs 80 targets over that span while also leading all WRs in the NFL in Catch % and one of the best YPT last year.  And a rookie in Keon, where I get people are split, including you who doubts his ability to be a WR1 in the NFL, who despite all that has legitimate WR1 upside and everything coming out on him right now has been over whelmingly great.  From on field performance, to work ethic, football IQ, commitment, and running 100% exclusively with the 1's.  And Samuel has never had a legit starting QB in his career either and entering his prime now.  

 

Optimism that one of them, or more than one of them, can continue to ascend and form a strong top of the chart group is a very legitimate possibility and not at all as improbable or daunting through constant repeating as some make it sound.

 

Second thing is:  Too much is being made about their not being a "Diggs" on the other side of the field.  Yes, there are advantages and benefits to there being a guy who consistently gets extra attention, but to the degree its being discussed is way over the top in this thread.  If you read some of the posts here you would think its impossible for any offense or receivers to have success or play well without a top 5 WR on the field to draw attention.  

 

Not to mention, we already have an Elite player that garners extra attention still in Allen who absolutely teams need to spy.  And furthermore, to assume no teams are going to have to cheat attention during games towards any of our weapons is just naive, there will be guys on this team still getting doubled or defenses selling out to stop on a certain play and to think it won't happen without Diggs is just not realistic.  

 

 

 

It is a simple fact that we don't have anyone who is proven beyond #3 type production. I will leave Kincaid aside for a second because I was talking specifically about wide receivers. I am just not as optimistic as you are on either Keon or, to a lesser extent, Shakir who I do think can be very good but you have to be elite to be a difference maker at slot and I am not sure he is that. 

 

I think the Bills will have enough to move the ball. But they have objectively on paper one of the worst receiver groups in the league going into the season. It will come down to Josh and Joe to maximise what they have.

[JerseyBills]

21 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Let me first clarify that this comment I am about to make isn't solely at you, just replying to you since yours is a recent comment.  But this is more a general response to what is said a lot around here by numerous people who are less optimistic, skeptical or flat out have a very negative view on this group ahead of the season.  

 

There are two things that have been beaten to death and are being made more of than they really are, and in some cases being over exaggerated.

 

First:  Way too much is being made of this "unproven" aspect as if it implies "improbable".  Is it true to say its "unproven" like in the context you just used...yes.  Did you over exaggerate it...NO, but you do say it a lot.  But others shout this from the mountain top as if "unproven" also equates to "improbable" and they know who they are.  And that is where IMHO it is being way over stated and over exaggerated.  If our top of the chart weapons were made up of guys like MVS and Hollins...sure, I would say the "unproven" aspect of them being one of the primary or even the top primary target is a significant concern because they are more established in who they are.  

 

But we are talking about a TE that as a rookie was 4th and 10th in NFL history for rookie TE's in catches and yards.  A WR in Shakir who just led the team in receiving the final 10 games over Diggs with just 38 targets to Diggs 80 targets over that span while also leading all WRs in the NFL in Catch % and one of the best YPT last year.  And a rookie in Keon, where I get people are split, including you who doubts his ability to be a WR1 in the NFL, who despite all that has legitimate WR1 upside and everything coming out on him right now has been over whelmingly great.  From on field performance, to work ethic, football IQ, commitment, and running 100% exclusively with the 1's.  And Samuel has never had a legit starting QB in his career either and entering his prime now.  

 

Optimism that one of them, or more than one of them, can continue to ascend and form a strong top of the chart group is a very legitimate possibility and not at all as improbable or daunting through constant repeating as some make it sound.

 

Second thing is:  Too much is being made about their not being a "Diggs" on the other side of the field.  Yes, there are advantages and benefits to there being a guy who consistently gets extra attention, but to the degree its being discussed is way over the top in this thread.  If you read some of the posts here you would think its impossible for any offense or receivers to have success or play well without a top 5 WR on the field to draw attention.  

 

Not to mention, we already have an Elite player that garners extra attention still in Allen who absolutely teams need to spy.  And furthermore, to assume no teams are going to have to cheat attention during games towards any of our weapons is just naive, there will be guys on this team still getting doubled or defenses selling out to stop on a certain play and to think it won't happen without Diggs is just not realistic.  

 

 

And you also have to add in the run game , which was bad ass under Brady and upgraded . Davis>Murray and Johnson coming on late last year, all 3 could catch as well.

Imo KCs RBs are the main reason they won SBs, in the run and pass game 

It just adds a whole new dimension to your offense and leaves defenses a step behind when you start with the PA and what not

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is a simple fact that we don't have anyone who is proven beyond #3 type production. I will leave Kincaid aside for a second because I was talking specifically about wide receivers. I am just not as optimistic as you are on either Keon or, to a lesser extent, Shakir who I do think can be very good but you have to be elite to be a difference maker at slot and I am not sure he is that. 

 

I think the Bills will have enough to move the ball. But they have objectively on paper one of the worst receiver groups in the league going into the season. It will come down to Josh and Joe to maximise what they have.

 

And to be clear, I have no issue with your specific stance even though our opinions on the upside of Keon and Shakir differ where I see a higher ceiling than you do.  It is totally fair to be on either side of that fence right given it is as you say "unproven".  Where my point comes from is the degree a lot of other people push that "unproven" aspect to a level that also implies "improbable" with the posters who wade much deeper than you in negative side of the swimming pool.

 

But here is the one thing I do definitely disagree with what you are saying, at least in your language being used in the bolded above.  On one hand you talk about how they are "unproven", which is true and means both they have not proven one way or the other what their capabilities are yet given youth and circumstance between Keon (rookie), Shakir (ascending after a breakout), and Samuel (in his prime, never had a credible QB yet though).  But in this bolded, you also state they are one of the worst groups in the league "on paper" and "entering the season"...which I won't even argue given it is fair for you to say with so many changes and things yet to be seen.  

 

However, the issue I have is that you follow that by then stating it is all on "Josh and Brady to make due with they have" which sounds a lot like saying them needing to  make Chicken Salad out of Chicken S**t.  And that kind of language closes the door on this "unproven" group actually proving your "one of the worst groups on paper" grading inaccurate or wrong.  

 

I am not saying that you even believe that or not...I am saying your use of language there doesn't imply there is room for them to outperform your "on paper" opinion wrong and that the success will be solely on Allen and Brady to overcome this group.  

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is a simple fact that we don't have anyone who is proven beyond #3 type production. I will leave Kincaid aside for a second because I was talking specifically about wide receivers. I am just not as optimistic as you are on either Keon or, to a lesser extent, Shakir who I do think can be very good but you have to be elite to be a difference maker at slot and I am not sure he is that. 

 

I think the Bills will have enough to move the ball. But they have objectively on paper one of the worst receiver groups in the league going into the season. It will come down to Josh and Joe to maximise what they have.

about where I am at too - well said 

[JP51]

3 hours ago, NoSaint said:

about where I am at too - well said 

I agree on paper that there is no true 1 on this team currently. I do have hope that what is currently on the roster can produce and hopefully find a breakout guy that takes the one spot much like Stevie Johnson did way back. But there is a lot of ifs and probably alot of growing pains imo

[JerseyBills]

So frustrating listening to WFAN and ESPNyc , everyday propping up the Jests and constantly disrespecting the Bills. 

Bart Scott literally said we lost our best defender in Jordan Poyer on Mon or Tues, unfortunately I couldn't get on to school him n had to go back to work. 

 

They also stay disrespecting the weapons on O, which I obviously disagree with. Love hearing about the motion n different looks so far in TC, I'll say it again,  this will be the most well rounded and unpredictable weekly O 17 has had

[Bills!Win!]

Hot take - Coleman, Shakir, Samuel, Hollins will be just as good, if not better than 2020’s Diggs, Brown, Beasley, Davis 

Edited July 28 by Bills!Win!

[Alphadawg7]